Does Josh or Any Other Famous Fundy Have Abusive Qualities

[Sister Mary Savage]

I know this is probably taboo but I'm purely curious to know. We all know that Josh, Boob, and most of the kool aid suckers are huge asses. However, do any of you think that Josh has the qualities of an abusive spouse? Sure, he's lazy and makes Anna do damn near everything but would you call him abusive?

[Deleted07]

I don't think I would call him abusive, I think its just their patriarch spiel of "the womens" doing all the chores and taking care of the bebes and such, while the mens y'know 'fellowship'.... *eyeroll*

[muffynbear]

No. I don't think Josh is abusive. Misogynistic and pompous? Yes, but not abusive. But isn't Patriarchy misogynistic by default anyway?

I DO think some of the behaviors exhibited by a certain famous fundy is emotionally abusive and narcissistic.

[deelaem]

No. I don't think Josh is abusive. Misogynistic and pompous? Yes, but not abusive. But isn't Patriarchy misogynistic by default anyway?

I DO think some of the behaviors exhibited by a certain famous fundy is emotionally abusive and narcissistic.

Misogyny IS abusive. Treating someone like less of a human being based solely on their gender is very abusive. Every time one of these women is oppressed, that is abuse.

Saying that they're not abusive because they don't hit their wives is pretty short-sighted.

[Witsec7]

By its nature the patriarchy is an abusive system.

Lets see how the patriarchy scores on this list.

Emotional Abuse

Frequently blames or criticizes you

Calls you names

Ridicules your beliefs, religion, race class or sexual preference

Blames you for "causing" the abuse

Ridicules/makes bad remarks about your gender

Criticizes or threatens to hurt your family or friends

Isolates you from your family and friends

Abuses animals

Tries to keep you from doing something you wanted to do

Is angry if you pay too much attention to someone or something else (children, friends, school, etc.)

Withholds approval, appreciation or affection

Humiliates you

Becomes angry if meals or housework are not done to his/her liking

Makes contradictory demands

Does not include you in important decisions

Does not allow you to sleep

Repeatedly harasses you about things you did in the past

Takes away car keys, money or credit cards

Threatens to leave or told you to leave.

Checks up on you (listens to your phone calls, looks at phone bills, checks the mileage on the car, etc.)

Tells people you suffer from a mental illness

Threatens to commit suicide

Interferes with your work or school (provokes a fight in the morning, calls to harass you at work, etc.)

Minimizes or denies being abusive

Abuses your children

Breaks dates and cancels plans without reason

Uses drugs or alcohol to excuse their behavior

Uses phrases like "I’ll show you who is boss," or "I’ll put you in line"

Uses loud or intimidating tone of voice

Comes home at late hours refusing an explanation

Financial Abuse

Makes all the decisions about money

Takes care of all financial matters without your input

Criticizes the way or amounts of money you spend

Places you on a budget that is unrealistic

Prohibits your access to bank accounts and credit cards

Refuses to put your name on joint assets

Controls your paycheck

Refuses you access to money

Refuses to let you work

Refuses to get a job

Refuses to pay bills

Causes you to lose your job

Sexual Abuse

Pressures you to have sex

Pressures you to perform sexual acts that make you uncomfortable or hurt you

Directs physical injury toward sexual areas of your body

Puts you at risk for unwanted pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases

Withholds sex or affection

Calls you sexual names ("whore", "bitch", etc.)

Tells anti-woman jokes or demeans women verbally/attacks your femininity or masculinity

Accuses you of having or wanting sex with others

Forces you to have sex with others

Threatens to disclose your relationship when you did not want it known

Forces you to view pornography

Pressures you to dress in a certain way

Disregards your sexual needs and feelings about sex

Accuses you of being gay if you refused sex (for heterosexual relationships)

Spreads rumors about your sexual behaviors

Forces you or refuses to let you use birth control

Makes unwanted public sexual advances

Makes remarks about your sexual abilities in private or in front of others

Rapes and sexually assaults you

Usi

[finleeport]

By its nature the patriarchy is an abusive system.

Lets see how the patriarchy scores on this list.

Emotional Abuse

Frequently blames or criticizes you

Calls you names

Ridicules your beliefs, religion, race class or sexual preference

Blames you for "causing" the abuse

Ridicules/makes bad remarks about your gender

Criticizes or threatens to hurt your family or friends

Isolates you from your family and friends

Abuses animals

Tries to keep you from doing something you wanted to do

Is angry if you pay too much attention to someone or something else (children, friends, school, etc.)

Withholds approval, appreciation or affection

Humiliates you

Becomes angry if meals or housework are not done to his/her liking

Makes contradictory demands

Does not include you in important decisions

Does not allow you to sleep

Repeatedly harasses you about things you did in the past

Takes away car keys, money or credit cards

Threatens to leave or told you to leave.

Checks up on you (listens to your phone calls, looks at phone bills, checks the mileage on the car, etc.)

Tells people you suffer from a mental illness

Threatens to commit suicide

Interferes with your work or school (provokes a fight in the morning, calls to harass you at work, etc.)

Minimizes or denies being abusive

Abuses your children

Breaks dates and cancels plans without reason

Uses drugs or alcohol to excuse their behavior

Uses phrases like "I’ll show you who is boss," or "I’ll put you in line"

Uses loud or intimidating tone of voice

Comes home at late hours refusing an explanation

Financial Abuse

Makes all the decisions about money

Takes care of all financial matters without your input

Criticizes the way or amounts of money you spend

Places you on a budget that is unrealistic

Prohibits your access to bank accounts and credit cards

Refuses to put your name on joint assets

Controls your paycheck

Refuses you access to money

Refuses to let you work

Refuses to get a job

Refuses to pay bills

Causes you to lose your job

Sexual Abuse

Pressures you to have sex

Pressures you to perform sexual acts that make you uncomfortable or hurt you

Directs physical injury toward sexual areas of your body

Puts you at risk for unwanted pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases

Withholds sex or affection

Calls you sexual names ("whore", "bitch", etc.)

Tells anti-woman jokes or demeans women verbally/attacks your femininity or masculinity

Accuses you of having or wanting sex with others

Forces you to have sex with others

Threatens to disclose your relationship when you did not want it known

Forces you to view pornography

Pressures you to dress in a certain way

Disregards your sexual needs and feelings about sex

Accuses you of being gay if you refused sex (for heterosexual relationships)

Spreads rumors about your sexual behaviors

Forces you or refuses to let you use birth control

Makes unwanted public sexual advances

Makes remarks about your sexual abilities in private or in front of others

Rapes and sexually assaults you

Usi

That definitely sounds like a abuse to me

[ladypuglover]

Wow, off topic but my ex-husband was all but 6 of those things on that list. Wow. I'm bowing out of this thread as Josh himself reminds me of my ex-husband in looks and smugness. I don't know or think Josh is like my ex but I am avoiding the triggers.

[lilwriter85]

I agree with another poster, there isn't any evidence that Josh is abusive in a way. He is lazy and could probably help more with Anna and the kids.

There are some abusive fundies and Latisha's husband the Chad seems to be emotionally abusive in some way.

[Mamajane]

I think that all members of the patriarchy/quiverfull movement are being mentally/emotionally abused. Think about it... from the time boys and girls are old enough to understand what is going on they are already being taught what they were made for and what they will do for thier whole life: boys will grow into men and become husband and fathers who are sole bread winners; girls will grow up to become submissive housewifes birthing as many children as possible.Many of these young children may have no desire to be what they are told they will become and that to me is abusive. I do not think Josh and Jim Bob are physically abusive but mentally? YES. They dont even realize it either because they are living Gods way.......

[thoughtful]

I agree that, by virtue of living in that system, many of the fundy men are emotionally abusive. It's rather like the work has been done for them.

And, since many of these fundies follow practices like the Pearls', I think they clearly qualify as abusive in every way, including physically, to children.

Most people who know something about abuse know that the abuser having a calm, authoritative, or charming facade is meaningless. In this case, such facades have a background and a "justification" -- their beliefs telling the abuser that they have no other choice (whether they believe that or just use it as an excuse).

Think of the oft-quoted "Take it up with God -- you're arguing with him, not me" that comes up in arguments with fundies. These men have that excuse with their own wives and children -- "I don't want to control the money/be the only one who works/confine you to the house, etc., but God says I have to do so."

Are there fundy households in which the wife actually rules, by manipulation, or actually being the authority in secret? I suspect as much.

Are there men who are also abused by it, by virtue of the fact that they'd like to live a more normal life, but are afraid of being damned to Hell? Sure.

But, in general, I think it's abuse by patriarchal system, by definition, and is therefore more abusive of women and children.

[Visionoyahweh]

Josh isn't abusive. He is, however, the product of an abusive system. (I think growing up Fudie is a form of abuse). He's been raised from he cradle to be an insensitive, douche man-child. That's such a huge part of his identity I don't know if it will ever change, short of a big life event. The Duggar family circus grinding to a halt and all the money/power going away with it might do it.

[simplysweet]

Misogyny IS abusive. Treating someone like less of a human being based solely on their gender is very abusive. Every time one of these women is oppressed, that is abuse.

Saying that they're not abusive because they don't hit their wives is pretty short-sighted.

THAT ^^

[Conuly]

1. I think that the Quiverfull movement lends itself to spiritual abuse and cultlike behavior. It is possible to abuse somebody other than your own spouse or children, and I do believe many of those families are being abused by their leaders.

2. I think that patriarchal systems in general lend themselves easily to spousal abuse, and hierarchical family models naturally lend themselves to child abuse. This has two problems, first in that people already inclined to go power grubbing and abuse their family members are more likely to use their "religious beliefs" as justification, and secondly that people who otherwise might be normal and healthy might find themselves pushed into abusive behavior and not see an easy way to stop. (Not that I want to have too much sympathy for abusers here....)

3. It MAY be possible to be willingly living this sort of lifestyle and not going out of your way to do things that will cause physical or emotional damage to your children, nor neglecting them medically or educationally... though I think deliberately having more children than ANYbody could provide for is... well, whatever. However, you'd have to be motivated to do so, aware of the potential pitfalls and problems, and very very careful at it.

With that said, any individual is going to try not to say things that make them look abusive. They're not going to let you take a video of them cursing out their children for being worthless sluts, or beating their spouse to a bloody pulp, or locking their dog in a closet for hours. Nobody wants to record their worst moments for posterity! So what you have to do is read between the lines, because the worst thing anybody lets air on TV, or posts on their blog? That's almost certainly not the worst thing going on in their home. If they have no qualms or compunction about posting that they smacked their kid at one year for not napping long enough, you have to ask what is going on that they DON'T post about.

[Sola]

Yes I think they do. Not physical abuse, although there will be those within the patriarchy circles itself who are physically abusive. That transcends all religions and none.

Patriarchy itself is abusive. It is emotionally abusive, which is just as bad. It is not allowing someone to find their own path in life. It is preventing someone from making their own choices and that is abuse, pure and simple.

[AMedievalistKnits]

I think so (although I'm not sure whether we're discussing partner violence or plain old domestic violence). The Pearls are abusive; anyone who follows their beating, er, 'discipline' teachings is guilty of child abuse {weed whacked cord is pretty freaking dangerous}, and if you're beating Bobby and Janie, you're probably beating Mom, too...Or at least verbally abusing her.

[muffynbear]

Misogyny IS abusive. Treating someone like less of a human being based solely on their gender is very abusive. Every time one of these women is oppressed, that is abuse.

Saying that they're not abusive because they don't hit their wives is pretty short-sighted.

Um, actually what I meant was that I don't think Josh physically abuses his wife. I'm not defending his behavior in any way. What I meant was that while we've seen no evidence of physical abuse, he's still a major douche due to his pompous, arrogant behavior and the misogynistic culture he was raised in.

[Deleted07]

you can't rule out an abuser just by looking at him. I'm more concerned about overly-charming men like Jim Bob because it's part of their gaslighting to make everyone else vouch for them and say they're great while they treat their family horribly, but really anyone could be an abuser and hide it.

This is true, its usually the men that everyone loves, and that on the outside look so perfect that can actually be the ones who are abusers... Something I learned about my own grandfather... On the outside a noble navyman, everyone loved him and always commented on how great he was etc... Meanwhile he would beat his wife and sons (my dad). Which is why our family never had anything to do with him.

But on topic, I agree the patriarch thing certainly does make my blood boil, and the whole 'under headship' crap they go on with can all certainly lead to abuse, because of the submission thats expected of the women.

However, most of the girls are quite prepared for this with how they are raised etc and accept it as normal. So its hard to know if its abusive when they are actually playing along with the spiel? Hope that makes sense! Certainly has made me think, and certainly makes me glad to NOT be a Fundie and NOT have to submit to any man!