Accommodating religion, how far should secular groups go?

[Bella99]

This comes to mind because Her Maj just started dance lessons last night and I found it curious that the owner felt she needed to tell me beforehand that there would be a boy in the (8-9 yo) class. (So?) I got the skinny from one of the other moms. Apparently, one of the little girls who was in the class is a Hasidic Jew whose religion forbids girls from dancing before boys/men. She switched to an all-girls class, and the school actually held an additional female guest only holiday show. Does this mean the other Dads can't look through the one-way window during this girl's class? Wouldn't that technically violate the no dancing before men rule? What happens for the big recital this Spring? For us, we enjoy sharing our daughter's achievements and milestones as a family - I don't want to have to be split up from my husband for her recitals, get her ready for additional shows, etc.

It just occured to me that our area has a very high Jewish population with several large well-appointed schools. The JCC has a beautiful dance studio available for rental. Wouldn't it make more sense to gather a class and hire their own instructor to make sure their rules are followed properly? I respect people attempting to be true to their faith, the question is how much should secular organisations do?

[Guest Anonymous]

If it is a private dance school and is not legally obligated to make provisions for children of particular faiths, then I would guess the stance they have taken is based either on ethical or business reasons, or most likely a mixture of both. In an area with a high Jewish population, perhaps they are making the accommodations with a view to securing more business from Jewish families in future?

Surely, if they deal with the female-audience issue by holding an additional show, then it shouldn't affect parents who want to go as a family unit - they would just attend the regular show and everyone could be happy?

What would you like to have happened to the little Jewish girl in question?

[Bella99]

I'd like her to be free to dance wherever, whenever, and before whoever she wishes.

[holierthanyou]

While a private dance company may not be required to accommodate someone's religion, certainly it was the classy and respectful thing to do. I give them two thumbs up for recognizing the importance of respecting and accommodating minority religious beliefs.

[Witsec1]

Well, it's a private business and so the owner can decide what she wants to do. If she rejected the boy from class to accommodate the Orthodox girl, that would have been discrimination. She would have been within her rights to say to the Orthodox girl, you're welcome to join, but we have mixed classes and mixed audiences at our shows, and that's just the way it is. Maybe she is hoping to get more business from the Orthodox community, or else she had some other personal motive for doing it.

I do hate the idea that 8-9 year olds have to be burdened with their parents hang-ups about sexual purity. As a customer, I would probably roll my eyes and say something to that effect. As the business owner, I would have said, you're welcome to join, but this is the way we do things. But as long as the accommodations don't affect other people's participation, I don't really see it as a problem, if the business owner wants to do that.

[debrand]

What would you like to have happened to the little Jewish girl in question?

AnnieC, would you add to this question? The way it is worded makes it sound as if you think the OP wants something bad to happen to the little girl and I doubt that is what you meant.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'd like her to be free to dance wherever, whenever, and before whoever she wishes.

So let me re-phrase the question: what response would you have liked the Dance school to have made to the little girls' application and the conditions that her parents required?

And also - how will it affect you personally, if the school response is to put on an extra show as well as the family show that you and yours can watch together?

[HOTW]

I think it was very accomodating of the school to have done this. My son danced ballet and other forms of dance for years and we never had issues with the girls being in his class we did have issues with the parents assuming my son was gay(he is not) because not only was he good but he enjoyed the challenge. Until an ankle injury 1.5 years ago he was on the way to a possible professional career in Ballet. I cannot see a school that trains more for professional career dnace doing this, they tend to be much more concentrated that the recreational schools. Besides at the more career minded schoosl they emphasize the ability to reove oneself from false modesty as sometiems the dancers are required to do quick changes and that can get in the way of a performance if a dnacer feels th eneed to run to a chaging room rather than have help stripping and recostuming behind the scenes.

[Conuly]

I'd like her to be free to dance wherever, whenever, and before whoever she wishes.

The school's not going to be able to take custody away from her parents just to accomplish this.

[Bella99]

I don't want any child to be excluded and feel like the school did a beautiful job in this situation. But recitals can be a pain in the behind, not just for the school, but the parents as well. If she had been in my daughter's class and I was expected to make it to/get her ready for two holiday shows during final exams, it would have been a problem for our family.

Sadly, boys who want/are allowed to study ballet are rare enough that they will probably never have a problem finding a girls only class. It is the girls only recitals/keeping other fathers from observing the class situation that puts a burden on everybody else.

[Bella99]

The school's not going to be able to take custody away from her parents just to accomplish this.

Nor should they, just wishful thinking on my part.

Edited for spelling.

[debrand]

I have to admit, if I had to do two recitals with my child, one that my husband could not watch, I would be annoyed. It would be different if the OP knew ahead of time that the school would accommodate the young lady. She could have chosen a different dance studio. However, it sounds as if the school changed the rules after her child started dancing there.

Of course, the school can do whatever it wants. I can understand a parent being upset.

[Stickers]

If it was only one family and I wasn't really needing to attract any new business from their community, I wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't personally feel comfortable catering to extremism like that.

But they can do whatever they like or need to.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't want any child to be excluded and feel like the school did a beautiful job in this situation. But recitals can be a pain in the behind, not just for the school, but the parents as well. If she had been in my daughter's class and I was expected to make it to/get her ready for two holiday shows during final exams, it would have been a problem for our family.

Sadly, boys who want/are allowed to study ballet are rare enough that they will probably never have a problem finding a girls only class. It is the girls only recitals/keeping other fathers from observing the class situation that puts a burden on everybody else.

I've never before heard of a situation where parents get to watch dance classes through a one-way mirror, but I can think of lots of reasons why some parents might object to this, religious or not.

My overall feeling about this situation is that you seem to be making an issue out of it, while trying not to be seen to be making an issue. You say that "the school did a beautiful job in this situation" but them follow it up with talking about what a problem that job would have been for your family.

I don't see the issue as being so much about accommodating religion, but more a higher arching issue of accommodating difference. Some clubs have policies about mixing disabled and able bodied children in the same classes and that has implications for families too. Some clubs allow kids with allergies to attend classes and that can lead to giant peanut butter wars....

Personally, I think it is good for kids to be exposed to difference, and to have the experience of making sacrifices and compromises in order to pursue their interests.

As this is a matter involving a private school, I don't think the 'shoulds' and 'shouldn'ts' are greatly up for debate. The decision rests with the school owners and, for them, it will be important to try to keep all their clients on board by being clear and upfront about their policies, so that families can decide upfront whether the commitments and schedule are something they can manage. It could swing either way for them: that's business.

[holierthanyou]

My overall feeling about this situation is that you seem to be making an issue out of it, while trying not to be seen to be making an issue.

Well said.

[clibbyjo]

My daughter played hockey on an all boys team for 4 years. She was allowed and treated the same by the coaches,but she was not treated the same in that camaradarie way and that was sad for me to see.(Not sad for her, she knew going in it would be that way playing with all boys. She was fine not having friends and coming in already dressed and all that stuff that comes along with being the different one) The whole team would have sleepovers and she wasn't invited. :( Because she was their best defensive man, the boys all respected her and were nice enough,but no friendships developed and she was always "the girl". She is now on a girls team and much happier.

As long as the Jewish girl and the ballet boy are not made to feel like weirdos for attending that ballet school, I think its up to the child to decide what they want to do. If they know they are going to be the "different one" and are ok with that, then they should do whatever they want. The kid is the one who will be doing it after all.

The school was nice to accomodate ,but I would not expected that special treatment for my kid signing up at a secular school. Just like with the boys team,everyone was treated the same.

[Stickers]

I've never before heard of a situation where parents get to watch dance classes through a one-way mirror, but I can think of lots of reasons why some parents might object to this, religious or not.

Really? I think it's pretty common. At the school where I took dance classes (for a month, I'm a quitter) there was a small room attached to the larger one and the wall they shared was a one way mirror. It was so the parents could sit in the smaller room and watch the kids without distracting them.

But like I said I only went to one school for one month. But it seems like a good idea, at least for younger kids (I was 6-ish when I went).

[Bella99]

I've never before heard of a situation where parents get to watch dance classes through a one-way mirror, but I can think of lots of reasons why some parents might object to this, religious or not.

My overall feeling about this situation is that you seem to be making an issue out of it, while trying not to be seen to be making an issue. You say that "the school did a beautiful job in this situation" but them follow it up with talking about what a problem that job would have been for your family.

I don't see the issue as being so much about accommodating religion, but more a higher arching issue of accommodating difference. Some clubs have policies about mixing disabled and able bodied children in the same classes and that has implications for families too. Some clubs allow kids with allergies to attend classes and that can lead to giant peanut butter wars....

Personally, I think it is good for kids to be exposed to difference, and to have the experience of making sacrifices and compromises in order to pursue their interests.

As this is a matter involving a private school, I don't think the 'shoulds' and 'shouldn'ts' are greatly up for debate. The decision rests with the school owners and, for them, it will be important to try to keep all their clients on board by being clear and upfront about their policies, so that families can decide upfront whether the commitments and schedule are something they can manage. It could swing either way for them: that's business.

Many parents like to watch and see how their child is doing in the class, if they're making friends, etc. AFAIK, it's not uncommon - parents in the classroom or a clear window are a distraction for the students, this way parents can observe without causing interruptions.

I am not the one trying to keep my child from being exposed to "difference", peanut butter can be a life or death matter so even though Her Maj loves it if it became an issue I'd figure out something else for her lunches, and I think if you and yours have religious restrictions then dealing with the attendant challenges is your responsibility.

[snarkbillie]

When my oldest was in dance we were still fundie-lite (coming out of fundie) and they accommodated her leotard being cut differently than everyone else's (cap sleeves vs. spaghetti straps) and her skirt being longer (mid thigh vs. not covering their butts), but I don't think they liked doing it. I think it was within their rights to say "no" to us, but they decided to accommodate and roll their eyes a lot. ut

I don't know that you can do much about it other than change dance schools or try to keep her in a mixed class so that it's harder for them to split it up.

[Bella99]

When my oldest was in dance we were still fundie-lite (coming out of fundie) and they accommodated her leotard being cut differently than everyone else's (cap sleeves vs. spaghetti straps) and her skirt being longer (mid thigh vs. not covering their butts), but I don't think they liked doing it. I think it was within their rights to say "no" to us, but they decided to accommodate and roll their eyes a lot. ut

I don't know that you can do much about it other than change dance schools or try to keep her in a mixed class so that it's harder for them to split it up.

Clothing accommodations make sense to me, one of the reasons I like this school is they choose age appropriate recital costumes, but half the people on the planet are male and pretty hard to avoid. I love that she is in the mixed class anyway, so as long as everybody progresses at the same rate, I plan to keep her there. One thing that makes me smile is that Ballet Boy has a little brother in the 5 yo class!

[Bella99]

My daughter played hockey on an all boys team for 4 years. She was allowed and treated the same by the coaches,but she was not treated the same in that camaradarie way and that was sad for me to see.(Not sad for her, she knew going in it would be that way playing with all boys. She was fine not having friends and coming in already dressed and all that stuff that comes along with being the different one) The whole team would have sleepovers and she wasn't invited. :( Because she was their best defensive man, the boys all respected her and were nice enough,but no friendships developed and she was always "the girl". She is now on a girls team and much happier.

As long as the Jewish girl and the ballet boy are not made to feel like weirdos for attending that ballet school, I think its up to the child to decide what they want to do. If they know they are going to be the "different one" and are ok with that, then they should do whatever they want. The kid is the one who will be doing it after all.

The school was nice to accomodate ,but I would not expected that special treatment for my kid signing up at a secular school. Just like with the boys team,everyone was treated the same.

Thanks, you said it better than I did.

[Alecto]

I think reasonable accommodations are the smartest and politest thing to do. It's entirely possible that the school asked the parents in the girls only class if they could do two shows, and the parents agreed.

At my school, there was a huge problem with trying to simply get the school to label foods based on both allergens and meat content. We have a large population of Muslim students who eat vegetarian as well as the usual folks who have food allergens. Sadly, the chef we had didn't always make the vegetarian food exactly vegetarian... and claimed we were asking too much for him not to use chicken broth.

I think MOST people just want their beliefs to be respected.

[She Who Laughs]

I have to admit, if I had to do two recitals with my child, one that my husband could not watch, I would be annoyed. It would be different if the OP knew ahead of time that the school would accommodate the young lady. She could have chosen a different dance studio. However, it sounds as if the school changed the rules after her child started dancing there.

Of course, the school can do whatever it wants. I can understand a parent being upset.

And it also holds true that if some of the parents are upset that the studio made the choice to accommodate this girl then those parents could also choose to start using a different dance studio.

[mnb357]

I am actually a dance teacher for a private dance school. I'm afraid we wouldn't be able to accomodate this situation due to logistics. We try to take parents' feelings into account with pretty much everything, because, after all, we are a business, and they do pay tuition. BUT, there are times when we've had to simply say "I'm sorry, we can't do that." For instance, if we had a Jehovah's Witness, we would not go out of our way to avoid Christmas music in our Christmas demonstration, nor would we refrain from decorating the studio for Christmas. We would, however, make sure at least one of this child's classes had a song to which she could perform. Generally, when we do run into a situation we cannot accomodate, we always try to refer our parents to other schools in the area, though. It's the owner's studio, and she has a right to run it as she pleases, parents have the right to enroll their children or not.

[holierthanyou]

It's the owner's studio, and she has a right to run it as she pleases, parents have the right to enroll their children or not.

That sounds a lot like when some racist says "Well this is (my version of) America, if you don't like (my version of) it, you can leave!"

People have the right to be respected. It shouldn't be an ultimatum of "If you don't like my asshole attitude you need to leave".