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Another Fundie Talks About 'Real Women'


Burris

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We've talked about this before, especially when deconstructing the advertising for Nancy Leigh DeMoss' “True Womanhood†movement – this dichotomy fundies have set up between “real women,†who are defined as those that follow fundie rules, and the unwomen that don't.

Tosha, at I Am Changing My Heart (iamchangingmyheart.blogspot.com/2011/12/real-woman.html), has gotten her hot little hands on this particular meme – an unfortunate accident that has led her to write an equally unfortunate post called, “A Real Woman.â€

She begins with the following quote, which appears in an embroidered sampler she recently found: “To be a real woman is to bring out the best in a man.â€

That quote is problematic on a number of levels, and so naturally Tosha fell in love with it. Reading it also brought back a conversation she'd had three years earlier while waiting at an airport:

“After a few hours, a retirement-age couple sat down next to me and we quickly struck up a conversation. It seems that they were a wealthy couple who had been visiting their second home in Fort Lauderdale, but were now traveling north for the holidays.

“The conversation started with the general how-do-you-do’s and somehow progressed to what I was doing with my life. I explained that I didn’t have plans to go to college. However, I had a very good position as a Clerk Assessor of Personal Property for our county. The lady nodded her head approvingly as I outlined my future plans. That is, until I came to the part about eventually marrying and being a full-time wife to my husband.â€

“This woman was obviously convinced that I was condemned for life, if she didn’t change my mind then and there. She immediately started giving me every reason she could think of about why a woman are better than men and should never ever let one, let alone a husband get in the way of her career or happiness. This is the only way to success, so she said.

“One comment in particular I remember: 'Tosha, the highest goal for women is to be better than men. We have to beat them at their own game. Never give up until you succeed.'

“Even though I was not yet convicted about daughterhood, I was still taken aback to say the least. I had assumed that I would find an ally in this conservative-looking, elderly lady, not a militant feminist.

“As the one-sided conversation continued, I looked over at her husband, who was sitting mere inches from the conversation. Having his nose buried in a newspaper, he was either oblivious to his wife’s extremely demeaning comments about men, didn’t care, or both. I felt rather sorry for him. “

There's a lot to parse here – and that's assuming I believe Tosha's account is accurate.

I'll just take it from the top:

1) Tosha talks about becoming a “full-time†wife after she marries, as if married women who have jobs are somehow only part-time wives. Funny that we never hear the same about husbands, even if they work so far away that they do two weeks out for every week at home.

2) Tosha worked at that time, before she was “convicted about daughterhood†- a statement that probably means she drank the Kool-Aid and decided to become a stay-at-home burden to her parents. (Apparently daughterhood, like wifehood, is something one can't properly achieve if she supports herself financially.)

3) The idea that feminists believe women must not only fight for equal opportunity, but also to “be better than men,†has more in common with fundie fear-mongering than it does with the behavior of any feminist I've ever met.

Giving Tosha the benefit of the doubt that this tale is true, however, then I feel the same way about that older woman as I do about fundie men who humiliate and dominate their wives: I see them all as being inconsiderate and potentially abusive.

Tosha's conclusion that the husband was either 'oblivious' or 'didn’t care' is likely wrong. He was probably hiding behind that paper because he was embarrassed at being demeaned by his wife.

Tosha has bought into a lifestyle full of contradictions, where men are born leaders who nonetheless need subservient “real women†around before these men can be 'at their best.'

Women are weaker vessels, but men need them to cover up from crown to toe because the average fundie man simply can't control his raging lust if he sees a bit of ankle.

Women should be homemakers, but men are so much better at it that they – the men – are encouraged to set the agenda and offer housekeeping tips.

Apparently, people with XX chromosomes must be willing to put up with all kinds of ridiculous silliness in order to be counted as “real women.â€

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I am positive that Tosha read into this "militant feminist's" comments what she believed a "militant feminist" must think.

This "real woman" business is obviously just a semantic game. Tosha and the other fundies define "real woman" as being X, Y, and Z; ergo, anyone who doesn't conform is not a "real woman."

What I don't understand is why I am supposed to care. So I am not a "real woman." OK, fine with me.

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I was reading a book about an American woman who opened up a beauty school in Afghanistan. At some point in the story, there was a discussion about women, and an Afghani woman declared that women without children aren't really women - the whole point of women is to bear and raise children, therefore childless females aren't really women.

So belief summed up as "you don't fit into my quirky idea of what women are, therefore you're not a real woman" isn't just a fundie/Christian thing, it's a world-wide phenomenon.

And I too am ok with not being a real woman, I just wish my uterus was imaginary so I didn't have to deal with a real period once a month.

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3) The idea that feminists believe women must not only fight for equal opportunity, but also to “be better than men,†has more in common with fundie fear-mongering than it does with the behavior of any feminist I've ever met.

Giving Tosha the benefit of the doubt that this tale is true, however, then I feel the same way about that older woman as I do about fundie men who humiliate and dominate their wives: I see them all as being inconsiderate and potentially abusive.

Unfortunately I've read articles and statements from SOME women identifying as feminists that definitely betray a mindset of antagonism toward all men, the idea that women are 'better' and silly, unprovable, unrefutable, unhelpful things like 'if men could get pregnant there'd be abortion kits in McDonalds bathrooms'. Yes, one woman literally said this. 'Feminists' like that make all of us look bad.

Women are weaker vessels, but men need them to cover up from crown to toe because the average fundie man simply can't control his raging lust if he sees a bit of ankle.

Sadly, it's less about how the man is 'unable' to control his raging lust, as it is about how the man shouldn't have to control it--that a situation should never arise in which he must exercise control in order to not think lustfully.
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And I too am ok with not being a real woman, I just wish my uterus was imaginary so I didn't have to deal with a real period once a month.

You and me both...

Unfortunately I've read articles and statements from SOME women identifying as feminists that definitely betray a mindset of antagonism toward all men, the idea that women are 'better' and silly, unprovable, unrefutable, unhelpful things like 'if men could get pregnant there'd be abortion kits in McDonalds bathrooms'. Yes, one woman literally said this. 'Feminists' like that make all of us look bad.

And the point is that feminism is a pretty big tent. It has people who I agree with, people who I don't agree with, and people I wish would just shush.

Plus, while that may be a pretty flippant way of expressing it, I do firmly believe that if men had to experience the life-changing physical, mental, emotional effects of pregnancy and childbirth, there would be less judgmental men trying to regulate one of the most important and most intimate experiences in a woman's life. There would be less of this utter BS on waiting periods, mandating what sort of ultrasound a woman has to have, and in general the infantilization of women that always crops up around the subject.

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I can't help suspecting that what the woman meant was "you have to be better than the men to make the same headway" - something many of us will have grown up hearing.

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And the point is that feminism is a pretty big tent. It has people who I agree with, people who I don't agree with, and people I wish would just shush.

Very true.

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I wish I could shout it from the rooftops: "DO YOU PERSONALLY IDENTIFY AS A FEMALE? CONGRATULATIONS, YOU ARE A 'REAL WOMAN!'"

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I can't help suspecting that what the woman meant was "you have to be better than the men to make the same headway" - something many of us will have grown up hearing.

Yeah, that was the impression I got. Given the woman's age, she probably had to really fight to get where she ended up in her career, and hates the thought of a woman giving that sort of thing up for a husband. Doesn't really sound like a militant feminist to me :P

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Thursday, December 15, 2011

The Momma said...

I can't help but wonder while women are busy being "better men" than men can be who is being woman? I can't figure out for the life of me why there is something demeaning about being the best woman a woman can be! Thanks for posting!

This is one of the quotes. It has nothing to do with women being 'better than men"However in order to gain the same credit for doing their jobs, many women feel that they have to work harder and do better than their male counterparts. I've heard that immigrants to American and minorities sometimes feel the same way. They have to work harder and be better than the people who are already established or they get no credit for their work.

Sometimes, the best woman a woman can be is one that works in a male dominated field. The wonderful thing about freedom is we get to choose.

Besides, I don't want to be the best woman I can be. I want to be the best human that I can be. That isn't putting down being female. It's just that I see myself as human before I think about myself as a woman.

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There's a reason why fundies have to distinguish between Real Women and Evil Un-women. If they followed their own rules, they'd have to treat all women with the utmost respect and do nothing to harm us. However, they want the option to abuse, demean, degrade, oppress, and treat women with contempt whenever we get in their way. Therefore, only women who kowtow to them are Real Women. The rest of us are Un-women, so they can treat us as they please. We deserve no better. And even a Real Woman can turn to an Un-woman in an instant, the minute she does something a fundie man doesn't like. Getting raped and complaining about it, for instance. A Real Woman wouldn't get raped! QED! So you're now an Un-woman who can be shamed and ignored. The Real Woman idea is a giant Catch-22 trap.

And this "daughterhood" thing is teh crazeee. I just now tried to imagine what would have happened if my sisters and I had tried that on my parents. We all left home as fast as possible to avoid the emotional and physical abuse. If we'd tried to live at home, somebody would have been murdered, that's for sure.

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There's a reason why fundies have to distinguish between Real Women and Evil Un-women. If they followed their own rules, they'd have to treat all women with the utmost respect and do nothing to harm us. However, they want the option to abuse, demean, degrade, oppress, and treat women with contempt whenever we get in their way. Therefore, only women who kowtow to them are Real Women. The rest of us are Un-women, so they can treat us as they please. We deserve no better. And even a Real Woman can turn to an Un-woman in an instant, the minute she does something a fundie man doesn't like. Getting raped and complaining about it, for instance. A Real Woman wouldn't get raped! QED! So you're now an Un-woman who can be shamed and ignored. The Real Woman idea is a giant Catch-22 trap.

And this "daughterhood" thing is teh crazeee. I just now tried to imagine what would have happened if my sisters and I had tried that on my parents. We all left home as fast as possible to avoid the emotional and physical abuse. If we'd tried to live at home, somebody would have been murdered, that's for sure.

You make a good point. When I was young, there were still 'good' girls and 'bad' girls. The good girls were the ones that were marriageable. The bad girls were the ones that boys used to sow their wild oats. Of course, that was changing even when I was a kid. Most people no longer seperate women into ladies and whores. Now it looks like they are seperating women into real women(ladies) and every other woman(whores)

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I'm actually ROTFL about the description of the elderly Fort Lauderdale couple and her naive assumption that they would be conservative.

Has she been to Fort Lauderdale?

Anyone remember the Seinfeld episodes about Jerry's parents going to "Del Boca Vistas"? My parents are currently in a Florida condo that they inherited from my grandparents, and they say that it's spot on. The people there may be old, but they aren't remotely like quiet, conservative fundies. Generally speaking, they are either French Canadian or Jewish (WASPs go to the Gulf coast). I remember visits to my crazy grandma in Florida. When she wasn't ranting about her divorce, she was waking me up at 3 a.m. to argue socialist politics and tell me about all her friends from "the movement" (United Jewish People's Order, which was a front for the Community Party in the early 1950s).

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I think its why I often hesitate to say I am a feminist because of the male-bashing and 'better than' comments and extremist opinions and quotes you see by a lot of them!

When really its just about equal rights. Which is what I believe.

But yeah had to LOL at the 'article'... These fundies sure do love their generalizations don't they!?

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I'm having those red letter days. My tummy hurts. If anyone told me now I am not a real woman, I'd show him what my hormones can make me do these days.

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I'm actually ROTFL about the description of the elderly Fort Lauderdale couple and her naive assumption that they would be conservative.

Has she been to Fort Lauderdale?

Anyone remember the Seinfeld episodes about Jerry's parents going to "Del Boca Vistas"? My parents are currently in a Florida condo that they inherited from my grandparents, and they say that it's spot on. The people there may be old, but they aren't remotely like quiet, conservative fundies. Generally speaking, they are either French Canadian or Jewish (WASPs go to the Gulf coast). I remember visits to my crazy grandma in Florida. When she wasn't ranting about her divorce, she was waking me up at 3 a.m. to argue socialist politics and tell me about all her friends from "the movement" (United Jewish People's Order, which was a front for the Community Party in the early 1950s).

:lol: So true. The assumptions about the elderly. My great-grandmother (now deceased, would be about 105 if still alive) was a spunky, outspoken woman. She hardly had a primary school level education, but that was because she was born in the early 1900s (like 1906 or 8-can't remember exactly) to a poverty stricken rural family as the eldest of 13 children (only 10 of them made it adulthood). Still, she was something else and while she was not afforded the opportunities that we women have today, she encouraged all three of her daughters to get a high school education, which in the 1930s/40s was enough. Neither of grandfathers went to college, but had good jobs. Nearly all her granddaughters and sons got some education above high school and almost all of her great grandchildren have as well. Her great greats aren't old enough yet.

My great grandmother would have told this woman she is wasting her time and that she was being given the chance at an education and a life in a way she [my great grandmother] could only have ever dreamed and staying home to care for your husband when you can work and enjoy your life before the kiddos come, she ought to. Let's face it, these women who spout this nonsense never had to live in a world where they were unable to move up in life in anyway. They get the option to stay home, but before, there was not an option-women did not work and if they did it was shit jobs for almost no pay and once wed, the job ended. If hubby was no wealthy and something happened, many of these women were screwed and sent into poverty because they did not have any education-ala my g-grandmother who hardly do anything beyond basic math and was not fully literate. These women do not realize that they are damn lucky because if they did have an abusive husband or he divorced her or he died, she can find a job and further herself if she wants to do so. I don't blame the elderly woman for saying that stuff one bit and I bet her husband does not give a shit about it because for all this woman knows, her husband is 100% in agreement and thinks women do have to work hard to get a place in life based on the life they knew growing up. They may have daughters and granddaughters and even great-granddaughters and he may be a man who wants them to all be treated with the respect they deserve as people.

End Rant. Off of my :angry-soapbox:

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I think its why I often hesitate to say I am a feminist because of the male-bashing and 'better than' comments and extremist opinions and quotes you see by a lot of them!

When really its just about equal rights. Which is what I believe.

But yeah had to LOL at the 'article'... These fundies sure do love their generalizations don't they!?

I used to be that way too, but I am not afraid to say I am one anymore. I am a feminist-I believe both men and women deserve the same rights and same opportunities in life. I believe men and women of all races deserve this.

If I ever get married, my spouse will be one too (he wouldn't be able to put up with me otherwise) because I want someone who sees me as their partner, not a weaker or fairer being than himself. Extremists always exist but they don't speak for everyone. If you asked a group of college students if they are feminists, many won't raise their hands because they fear the reaction, but really, they are feminists for the most part-both women and men.

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Guest Anonymous
I think its why I often hesitate to say I am a feminist because of the male-bashing and 'better than' comments and extremist opinions and quotes you see by a lot of them!

When really its just about equal rights. Which is what I believe.

Really? I'd say this site has a large population of people who identify as feminists. How much male bashing have you come across here?

The "feminists are evil man hating extremists" trope runs rampant but I have never encountered that behavior in meatspace and only rarely on the internet. I think it's like the conversations that GC Kelly has with people who are bashing her childbearing choices - almost entirely made up.

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silly, unprovable, unrefutable, unhelpful things like 'if men could get pregnant there'd be abortion kits in McDonalds bathrooms'. Yes, one woman literally said this. 'Feminists' like that make all of us look bad.

This is not misandrist, nor does it make "us" look bad. If men could get pregnant, reproductive rights would be in a very different legal and moral situation, as this quote is illustrating in a witty way.

Please, "us"? You are living at home and embracing the patriarchy, my dear. Pink hair does not make you a feminist.

My grandmother once told me that women have to work twice as hard and be twice as good in order to get half as far. That is not male-bashing, but rather an acknowledgement of the current social order.

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Really? I'd say this site has a large population of people who identify as feminists. How much male bashing have you come across here?

The "feminists are evil man hating extremists" trope runs rampant but I have never encountered that behavior in meatspace and only rarely on the internet. I think it's like the conversations that GC Kelly has with people who are bashing her childbearing choices - almost entirely made up.

Yeah way to jump to conclusions... I never said I saw it happen here!

Thats why I like this forum, because most everyone seems so level headed and can see things from all angles and sides. Which I like to do myself.

OH and excuse me, just because YOU have never been in contact with many extremist feminist, it must mean they don't exsist!

:roll: You must realise how over-reactionary your post seems right?

Its almost like you are saying to me how dare I as a woman say I hesitate to identify as feminist! You realize that is just as bad as any bible thumper pushing their oppressive views onto others too.

I've personally seen a lot of feminist extremists, although that is probably because of where I used to work. I did work as a secretary in a big legal office. And let me tell you a lot of those women were indeed male bashing, anti childbearing feminists who did give feminism a bad name! It was a depressing place to work, because the men were wary because they often felt emasculated so were just pricks. In turn the women were just as bad. If you tried to be friend and be nice they either saw you as a slut or as weak, sometimes even competition. All around it was a dreadful place to work and I ended up with extreme depression from it, so left within a year!

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My grandmother once told me that women have to work twice as hard and be twice as good in order to get half as far. That is not male-bashing, but rather an acknowledgement of the current social order.

I do agree with this quote!!!

But I do agree that the obvious male-bashing as in. "I am woman, I am better!" is JUST as bad as any man saying "I am Man, I am better!" and its us just trying to be like men in their worst ways, which (to me) isn't the point of feminism.

In my opinion, its just about equal rights. For example, if two people come in for a job, and have identical resumes and experience and them choosing the man over the woman because of the misconstrued ideas that either a woman is bound to get pregnant or married and not be able/willing to do her job, OR that the man needs the job 'more' somehow because he is the 'breadwinner' forgetting that women often need to be breadwinners for themselves or their families, in their own right!

Hope that made sense, not trying to step on any toes, just can see both sides of the points raised for sure!!!

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Guest Anonymous
Yeah way to jump to conclusions... I never said I saw it happen here!

Thats why I like this forum, because most everyone seems so level headed and can see things from all angles and sides. Which I like to do myself.

Okay, so there's loads of feminists here and you've never seen any male bashing, but you don't think that's pertinent?

OH and excuse me, just because YOU have never been in contact with many extremist feminist, it must mean they don't exsist!

:roll: You must realise how over-reactionary your post seems right?

Someone is over reacting here and I don't think it's me, seeing as I have not yet resorted to all caps to show how level headed I am.

Its almost like you are saying to me how dare I as a woman say I hesitate to identify as feminist! You realize that is just as bad as any bible thumper pushing their oppressive views onto others too.

That's a radical misinterpretation of the text. And no, what I said is not even in the same realm as what you're comparing it to. Saying that people make shit up about feminists is in no way related to Bible thumpers forcing oppressive views on others. That's ridiculous.

I've personally seen a lot of feminist extremists, although that is probably because of where I used to work. I did work as a secretary in a big legal office. And let me tell you a lot of those women were indeed male bashing, anti childbearing feminists who did give feminism a bad name! It was a depressing place to work, because the men were wary because they often felt emasculated so were just pricks. In turn the women were just as bad. If you tried to be friend and be nice they either saw you as a slut or as weak, sometimes even competition. All around it was a dreadful place to work and I ended up with extreme depression from it, so left within a year!

You're blaming the bad behavior of the men that you worked with on women making them feel emasculated. Just ... no. From what you've said, everyone in that office was an asshole so you might as well say that all of your coworkers gave people who work in the legal profession a bad name. It makes more sense that way.

In my experience, people who talk about those extreme feminists are most often reacting to some vague idea or stereotype they have in their heads that has little to do with reality. They can almost never provide credible examples of this extreme man-hating behavior, because it's usually bullshit that they made up. I doubt that the assholery you experienced had much to do with feminism. Maybe some of it did, but your story isn't very convincing. I don't particularly expect you to care if some random person on the internet doesn't believe something, but there it is.

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