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Another Fundie Talks About 'Real Women'


Burris

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Yup, the way to negate the stereotype is to negate the stereotype by being the negation of the stereotype.

Yeah thats exactly what I was thinking with that comment...

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Yeah thats exactly what I was thinking with that comment...

Let me spell it out very simply for you.

Step 1) Call yourself an atheist

Step 2) Act as you always would

Congratulations. You've just helped negate the false stereotypes about atheists.

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The Real Woman idea is a giant Catch-22 trap.

This so much.

via the media, which does frequently paint feminists as man haters.

Don't forget our many cats! and not shaving our legs or wearing makeup or looking nice! And we have no sense of humor.

what have you been watching that makes you feel the media generally portrays Christians in a positive light?

Well, let's see, any coverage of the Duggars unless it is deliberately attacking them....

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Let me spell it out very simply for you.

Step 1) Call yourself an atheist

Step 2) Act as you always would

Congratulations. You've just helped negate the false stereotypes about atheists.

What stereotype is she negating exactly? Are atheists stereotypically opposed to referring to them selves as such? Are they stereotypically assumed to be hiding under rocks? I am perplexed.

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What stereotype is she negating exactly? Are atheists stereotypically opposed to referring to them selves as such? Are they stereotypically assumed to be hiding under rocks? I am perplexed.

According to her, the term "atheist" "come with bad (and very false) connotations". By identifying herself as an atheist who does not fit into those bad and false stereotypes, she negates them. Just as a woman who identifies herself as a feminist and does not bash men negates the view of feminists being man-haters/bashers.

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and thats whats wrong with labels and why I refuse to take on any, always someone wanting to split hairs about it, and having their own agenda etc.

If anything your arguments are just leading me away from calling myself any of those, because your whole point is just lost in whatever agenda you are trying to push and the aggressive, belittling tone of your posts.

So lets just leave it at, I am an equal rights for all, not sure about God person, that suit you? Oh thats right, I don't need your permission to call or believe whatever I choose. Fancy that. :roll:

Hope at least this little exercise was beneficial for you. :| Its the last I'm saying on the matter.

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Let me spell it out very simply for you.

Step 1) Call yourself an atheist

Step 2) Act as you always would

Congratulations. You've just helped negate the false stereotypes about atheists.

Yes, what Valsa said is what I meant. Life's too short to placate people whose opinion I don't really respect anyway.

Also, not calling yourself a feminist or atheist won't prevent people from calling you a feminazi or an angry atheist, if you express opinions that differentiate yourself from a doormat (or whatever the phrase is.)

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I think I already posted this and it was somehow eaten? I could not find the post. Maybe it is on a completely different topic. lmao

The only thing remotely male-bashing I have seen on this board came from me. I was discussing my mother, who was big in the second wave feminist movement. I quoted her as saying: "The right man for the job is usually a woman."

Not only did the radical feminists on the board NOT chuckle along, they called me out on it a tiny bit and told me it was man-bashing or something similar. The most radical feminists on the board and in the real world are usually the most sensitive to stereotypes and prejudice, regardless of the group it is offending.

About the angry, confrontational stereotype: I sometimes say things that could potentially offend someone, like the statement on men, and I am not an intentionally or naturally offensive person. My lexicon is considerably more sensitive than that of the average American, yet I perpetuate stereotypes by unthinkingly repeating idioms. The people reminding us that cunt is not the right word to use? They are the ones changing our society from the inside out. They may come across as confrontational, but they are usually right and usually very gracious if there was no ill intent.

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In the past I would never refer to myself as a feminist. I am not sure where I got these ideas from (?tv?movies?people around me) but for a long time I thought: (1) feminists hated men (and I adore the men in my life - all are wonderful) (2) feminists just sat around in a circle talking about touchy feely stuff/child related issues/their vaginas etc whereas all the men went around doing things (I was and am much more interested in science and math and have always preferred to do things rather than sit around and discuss) (3) all the women I met who self identified as feminists were non make up wearing/no high heels or girly stuff militant sorts. For a long time, for me, feminism had a lot of negative baggage. It really was not until I started to investigate fundamentalists and the patriarchy movement that I realized I had to take a stand to support a woman's right to choice. It took my gateway fundie (the author of the prairie muffin manifesto) to make me stand up and support feminism. I realized that I could define feminism to suit me - and for me it means supporting a woman's right to choice. It took me a while to get here but now I am a proud feminist.

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I am not sure where I got these ideas from (?tv?movies?people around me) but for a long time I thought: (1) feminists hated men (and I adore the men in my life - all are wonderful) (2) feminists just sat around in a circle talking about touchy feely stuff/child related issues/their vaginas etc whereas all the men went around doing things (I was and am much more interested in science and math and have always preferred to do things rather than sit around and discuss) (3) all the women I met who self identified as feminists were non make up wearing/no high heels or girly stuff militant sorts.

Second wave feminism was pretty harsh, and that has negatively colored the perception of feminism in general. But you have to consider that this was the first generation of women who said NO to staying at home and instead pursued their own goals. Sometimes they had to literally fight for their rights, and sometimes they were just angry because of how they were treated. My mother kind of turned on the feminist movement in the late nineties because she just was not angry anymore and she saw some of the leadership as betraying the movement in various ways. She still has a hard time classifying herself as a feminist because she remembers her bra-burning days and is like, that's not me anymore.

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Stereotyping feminists as "angry" is just a way to marginalize feminists, particularly female feminists. I'm not angry, generally-speaking - lol. I actually am a pretty happy person, as happiness seems to go, and I am grateful for all the good things in my life, which includes the four men who are the closest people in the world to me, whom I adore and think the sun shines right out of their asses. I like men as a matter of course, and get along fine with most men I know.

None of that has anything to do with the fact that we live under the influence of millennia of patriarchy and it is deeply ingrained in our society and in our thinking. We must work deliberately to recognize these influences and push back against them. I believe we change things one person at a time and that's not just a cliche to me.

When speaking up or pushing back, one doesn't have to be nasty about it. Often, just challenging people in a calm, rational way is enough to make them think. In our home, we speak expressly about the fact of white, male privilege and have taught our sons that 1) it exists! (which is often hard for some people to even understand), and 2) they must recognize it and do what they can to seek justice for all people.

And in my experience, men without major hang-ups tend to easily understand this and identify as feminists/supportive of feminist objectives.

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Second wave feminism was pretty harsh, and that has negatively colored the perception of feminism in general. But you have to consider that this was the first generation of women who said NO to staying at home and instead pursued their own goals. Sometimes they had to literally fight for their rights, and sometimes they were just angry because of how they were treated. My mother kind of turned on the feminist movement in the late nineties because she just was not angry anymore and she saw some of the leadership as betraying the movement in various ways. She still has a hard time classifying herself as a feminist because she remembers her bra-burning days and is like, that's not me anymore.

I agree, emmie. I believe that second wave feminism was harsh proportionately the level of sexism that was accepted in our society. Similar to the civil rights movement, in the 1960s it was necessary to march and organize sit-ins at lunch counters and everything else. Civil disobedience was the only way to morally draw attention to the grave injustice of racism. What many consider the radical feminism of the 1960s and 1970s was what was necessary to begin the process of reclaiming women's rights and exposing the injustices of feminism. Those in power were not just going to hand them over, that's for sure, even if asked nicely ;) I try to remember always how all that I have been able to accomplish with relatively few barriers has been because those who went before me did the heavy lifting. Many young women who refuse to identify as feminists have just failed to grasp this or haven't grasped it yet. I have hope for them, though!

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Alright, here is my problem with her "entry":

1) saying full-time wife puts down women who work full time jobs or even part time jobs...while being a wife. You do not stop being a wife when you go to work. If that was the case, not a lot of people would be angry if their mate cheated while at work.

To point something else out...it sounds like something from the freaking Handmaid's Tale. Where there are the wives, econo-wives, and marthas..I am forgetting the other women groups but one thing was certain: no woman was really her own person. I don't want that.

2) The old lady is right. Your happiness is important. I will go one further and say "me first". Not in the idea of "I bought this car I can't afford" but "I am going to take this quiet time to read a book or just rest instead of pushing myself to do all these kind gestures for people who hate my guts". You need to have or do something that makes you Shine. period.

3) Rightful death. Okay, big problem with that. What is "rightful death" anyway? We have millions of women having miscarriages, and they would tell you in a heartbeat that there was nothing "rightful" about it. It was a loss. Same thing when you lose family too early. She's trying to paint it with the "God's will" paint but that dog just won't hunt!

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Alright, here is my problem with her "entry":

1) saying full-time wife puts down women who work full time jobs or even part time jobs...while being a wife. You do not stop being a wife when you go to work. If that was the case, not a lot of people would be angry if their mate cheated while at work.

To point something else out...it sounds like something from the freaking Handmaid's Tale. Where there are the wives, econo-wives, and marthas..I am forgetting the other women groups but one thing was certain: no woman was really her own person. I don't want that.

2) The old lady is right. Your happiness is important. I will go one further and say "me first". Not in the idea of "I bought this car I can't afford" but "I am going to take this quiet time to read a book or just rest instead of pushing myself to do all these kind gestures for people who hate my guts". You need to have or do something that makes you Shine. period.

3) Rightful death. Okay, big problem with that. What is "rightful death" anyway? We have millions of women having miscarriages, and they would tell you in a heartbeat that there was nothing "rightful" about it. It was a loss. Same thing when you lose family too early. She's trying to paint it with the "God's will" paint but that dog just won't hunt!

:text-welcomewave: to FJ!

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Stereotyping feminists as "angry" is just a way to marginalize feminists, particularly female feminists.

And generally "angry" gets translated as "dared to raise her voice" or express anger/dissatisfaction. Feminists also get cast as "too angry" when we dare to get upset and passionate about issues like choice.

I like men as a matter of course, and get along fine with most men I know.

I like men. I love several of them. I just want them to act like damned adults, which IMO, a lot of the men we discuss do not. If you need a woman to dress a certain way because you might look, it's your problem.

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You can tell a movement is succeeding when the argument moves from ideological differences to ad hominem attacks on the group. That is how people act when they have no logic to fall back upon.

The average American believes that women are equal to men and that they deserve the same pay, accommodation, etc. So now the misogynists run around playing victim and claiming we are such meanies. Whatever. We're winning the war, they can whine all they want.

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You can tell a movement is succeeding when the argument moves from ideological differences to ad hominem attacks on the group. That is how people act when they have no logic to fall back upon.

The average American believes that women are equal to men and that they deserve the same pay, accommodation, etc. So now the misogynists run around playing victim and claiming we are such meanies. Whatever. We're winning the war, they can whine all they want.

Amen, sista!

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The phrase "real women" in general annoys me. Real women are people who identify as women. Period. Real women work, stay at home, fix cars, do needlepoint, cook, wear makeup or don't, wear heels or sneakers. Nothing makes any one woman more or less "real" than another.

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Please, "us"? You are living at home and embracing the patriarchy, my dear. Pink hair does not make you a feminist.

In what way am I 'embracing the patriarchy'?

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And generally "angry" gets translated as "dared to raise her voice" or express anger/dissatisfaction. Feminists also get cast as "too angry" when we dare to get upset and passionate about issues like choice.

Indeed.

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In what way am I 'embracing the patriarchy'?

You are sitting at home letting your dad pay the bills when no one is stopping you from getting a job or an education or taking any of the good advice that people have been offering you FOR YEARS NOW, and complaining about him to thousands of strangers via his internet access. Just to start with.

eta: I have read about half of the 100+ page thread on Etsy in which you claim to be saving yourself for courtship, also. Oh, and the ones where you brag about how modest you are.

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In what way is that embracing the patriarchy?

And you assume that I have in fact not changed my mind in the months/years since the thread about courtship? And if by 'brag' you mean 'speaking about my personal then-convictions about how I PERSONALLY feel called to dress.

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Maybe you have changed your mind. Maybe. Maybe you have gone from being patriarchy's biggest defender to its harshest critic. But you are still sitting in a room that a patriarch paid for and posting with internet access that a patriarch paid for because you can't be arsed to do anything for yourself. That, my dear girl, is embracing the patriarchy.

srsly, do you think no one here has a sob story? I had a relatively sane upbringing, but I have been raped, held hostage... I starved myself, cut myself, did more drugs than the average Hell's Angel to deal with it. These are things I discussed for years in horrible detail with my therapist and not with thousands of random strangers. If you have legitimate wounds, strangers on the internet will not heal them. They cannot even stop the bleeding. These are things that you need to work through OFF THE INTERNET. And then you can come and play without people getting pissed at you.

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