Catholic bishop resigns, admits he has 2 kids

[dawn9476]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45871047/ns ... sM.twitter

[contrary]

WHEN are they going to re-think this celibacy thing?

[HijabiLady]

Wasn't one of the first commandments towards mankind was to "go forth and multiply?" Why does the Catholic church demand celibacy from their priests? It doesn't make sense from a religious or biological standpoint.

[emmyfair]

This kind of stuff, along with the no birth control, is a big reason why I'm no longer with the church.

[keen23]

The Catholic Church didn't always require celibacy of their priests. Celibacy came about because the Church wanted to control the lands that the churches and monasteries were built on. By not allowing their members to have children, they didn't have to worry about pesky heirs splitting up the lands and prohibiting the Church from claiming the assets.

[Kelya]

Slightly better than the priest who abandoned and didn't financially help his kid, even with his cancer treatment.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/16/us/16 ... wanted=all

Very glad to no longer be Catholic! I remember when the sex abuse scandals broke (we lived in Massachusetts), my grandmother came running over yelling and asking my father if he'd ever been abused. Some of the priests had done circuits on the church out where we lived. Thankfully my family was untouched but I still remember the absolute panic on my nana's face.

[lizzy]

WHEN are they going to re-think this celibacy thing?

Celibacy is required of priests in the Latin Rite because traditionally they are to be set apart from the laity in life devoted to service of the Church.

The origins date back to the 2nd and 3rd century Christianity where the priests were allowed to be married, but expected to be continent (sucked for the wife, to be sure). That later evolved to the current practice of both celibacy and continence.

Today, celibacy has a more practical purpose. Suppose, for example, a priest's wife is in labor or his kid is sick, but he gets paged for an emergency baptism or last rites? The priest's first responsiblity is to administer the sacraments to his congregation regardless of what is going on at home.

That said, celibacy is a discipline, not a dogma, so it is within the right of the Church to change the rules. The Eastern rite churches have a tradition of married clergy with the following rules. They must be married prior to being ordained (if they are ordained unmarried, or if the wife pre-deceases they must maintain celibacy) and they are not eligible for elevation to bishop. So, it can be done. I don't know if the Eastern tradition of married clergy can be done the same way in the Latin church since the liturgical lives are so much different, but it is definitely worthy of study.

[liltwinstar]

I don't think that allowing priests to marry and have children would completely solve the issue. In Eastern Orthodox Church, priests *are* allowed to marry, and there aren't as many cases of sexual abuse (there are some, though...see pokrov.org). What I saw with the married priests was not abusive, but it was still pretty f*cked up...see: the married priest who told me orgasm was not necessary for women, but it was for men.

Further, it's a hard life for the wife of a priest. For one, they're in a fishbowl (as are all clergy spouses, I suppose), and the rules of Orthodox church are so vast and strict that the wife can get yelled by parishoners at for virtually anthing - having too short of sleeves, not being involved enough in the church, having too many children (a sign that she and the priest are having too much sex), not having enough children (are they using birth control???? Heavens!) that kind of thing. It's really a no win situation. Yes, married priests are allowed to have sex, but the lifestyle does not contribute to happy/healthy families and marriages, in my opinion. In some cases, the wives have to hold down jobs and raise the kids basically on their own while the priest has all the responsibility for his parish (with late-night calls for unction in the hospital, to bring communion to sick people, etc). Plus he's at the mercy of the bishop who can send him to a new parish, can tell him he has to travel to a remote area 2x/month to do services on top of his parish duties, etc etc. And, priests aren't paid all that well.

Yes, priests' wives have a special title in Orthodox church (Matushka/Presvytera, depending on language), but whooppee....they still have a hard life.

I think a better solution is that churches need to stay out of people's bedrooms, period; they need to have strict protocols of alterting the police first (not the bishop) when cases of abuse arise, and the need to de-centralize power so that the responsibility for a congregation is not all on one man.

Suppose, for example, a priest's wife is in labor or his kid is sick, but he gets paged for an emergency baptism or last rites? The priest's first responsiblity is to administer the sacraments to his congregation regardless of what is going on at home.

This is exactly why just "marriage for priests" sucks for the wives.

[shangrila]

That's good news. Since, we know, little altar boys very seldom fall pregnant. This means he was into adult women.

[ADoyle90815]

Things like this and the complete ban on birth control are why I could never be a member of the church. I do have family members who are Catholic, but my dad resented having the church forced on him as a child, so my brother and I weren't raised that way. I might have mentioned this before, but one of the most notorious pedophile priests did serve in my grandparents' parish, but fortunately, the youngest of my uncles were too old to be altar boys by that time.

[crazyforkate]

Today, celibacy has a more practical purpose. Suppose, for example, a priest's wife is in labor or his kid is sick, but he gets paged for an emergency baptism or last rites? The priest's first responsiblity is to administer the sacraments to his congregation regardless of what is going on at home.

Bull. My dad is an Anglican archbishop and was also briefly Acting Primate of Canada. I won't deny that it was hard for our family, especially my mom, and he missed a lot of things with his kids, although I don't recall him ever being away for something really important. However, in a true emergency, they just- wait for it - get another priest. I was in hospital on and off until I was about three, and my dad would take weeks off at a time to be there, especially since I had to be moved to another city. Even in our small town, they could get another priest to take care of things.

And yes, there are some places where there might be only one priest, but if family obligations call someone away, they can get help, especially over the long term. Not to mention that even in the present form of the Catholic Church priests have parents and siblings who might need them.

[Kelya]

Tons of other religions have priests/pastors/reverends/rabbis/imams/etc that have active family lives. And tons of them hold multiple jobs, including working as professors, teachers, nurses, etc. I don't see why catholic priests are unable to do what others of other religious rites do. I mean, did anyone else watch 7th Heaven on the WB? Protestant pastor with a handful of kids!

Additionally, eastern catholics are married and have families outside of north america.

My ladyfriend is a Buddhist and her head priest (jokushu?) is a professor, husband, father and archbishop equivalent of his sect of buddhism in north america...so it is done!

Bull. My dad is an Anglican archbishop and was also briefly Acting Primate of Canada. I won't deny that it was hard for our family, especially my mom, and he missed a lot of things with his kids, although I don't recall him ever being away for something really important. However, in a true emergency, they just- wait for it - get another priest. I was in hospital on and off until I was about three, and my dad would take weeks off at a time to be there, especially since I had to be moved to another city. Even in our small town, they could get another priest to take care of things.

And yes, there are some places where there might be only one priest, but if family obligations call someone away, they can get help, especially over the long term. Not to mention that even in the present form of the Catholic Church priests have parents and siblings who might need them.

I had never heard this term before and my girlfriend and i just giggled hilariously. We imagined monkeys with crowns and shit.

[liltwinstar]

Bull. My dad is an Anglican archbishop and was also briefly Acting Primate of Canada. I won't deny that it was hard for our family, especially my mom, and he missed a lot of things with his kids, although I don't recall him ever being away for something really important. However, in a true emergency, they just- wait for it - get another priest. I was in hospital on and off until I was about three, and my dad would take weeks off at a time to be there, especially since I had to be moved to another city. Even in our small town, they could get another priest to take care of things.

And yes, there are some places where there might be only one priest, but if family obligations call someone away, they can get help, especially over the long term. Not to mention that even in the present form of the Catholic Church priests have parents and siblings who might need them.

I think it might be that the Anglican Church your dad served in was more reasonable that some others. It seemed to me in Orthodox Church (and I would guess that this happens in Catholic Church, too), that some bishops and senior priests were on permanent power trips which could make life difficult for clergy in their diocese, not to mention cause a boatload of drama.

Also, at least for Orthodox Church, they can't just get another priest - there aren't that many, esp when you consider the ethnic divisions. Sure, there might be a Greek Church and a Russian Church in the same town, but the Greek Church is New Calendar and Greek-speaking and the Russian Church is Old Calendar and uses Slavonic for its services, so the priests are not interchangeable. Plus, in Orthodox church a priest can only serve one liturgy/day, so he can't just go to another church and do another liturgy. It makes things really complicated.

I know the Catholic Church has priest-recrutiment problems, plus I'm sure there are language divisions as well (Spanish mass, English mass, etc etc), so it probably isn't that easy to cover all the needs of the parishoners.

Orthodox church was not family-friendly for its priests, not at all. Yes, priests could take sabbaticals for serious illness, but not for the daily stuff of raising a family.

[alysee]

Not sure this was mentioned cuz I just read the last comment but another reason priests don't marry is the church would be obligated to pay for the spouse and children if a priest died.

[Nothing2CHere]

That said, celibacy is a discipline, not a dogma, so it is within the right of the Church to change the rules. The Eastern rite churches have a tradition of married clergy with the following rules. They must be married prior to being ordained (if they are ordained unmarried, or if the wife pre-deceases they must maintain celibacy) and they are not eligible for elevation to bishop. So, it can be done. I don't know if the Eastern tradition of married clergy can be done the same way in the Latin church since the liturgical lives are so much different, but it is definitely worthy of study.

Lizzy, can you expand on the bolded part? I'm sincerely curious as to what you mean, since I consider myself "bi-ritual." I was baptized and raised as a Byzantine Catholic, but since my mother is Roman Catholic, I've had an equal amount of exposure between the western and eastern rites, but I don't know what you meant when you wrote "since the liturgical lives are so much different."

And to everyone else, yeah, what Lizzy wrote above is what I'm familiar with, too. You can be married in the Eastern Catholic church, but you have to be married before a certain point in your studies, and if you are married, then there's only so far you can move up the "corporate ladder," so to speak.

ETA: Keyla, as of 1999, I think it was, married men are once again allowed to be Eastern Catholic priests in North America. At my church right now, we have a deacon-on-his-way-to-becoming-a-priest who is married with three little boys.

[razingruth]

Oddly enough, NPR recently did a piece about how the Catholic Church is allowing entire congregations of Episcopalians to convert. Included in the congregants are the married pastors who will be allowed to take vows and become Catholic priests.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/s ... 52377588/1

[lizzy]

Lizzy, can you expand on the bolded part? I'm sincerely curious as to what you mean, since I consider myself "bi-ritual." I was baptized and raised as a Byzantine Catholic, but since my mother is Roman Catholic, I've had an equal amount of exposure between the western and eastern rites, but I don't know what you meant when you wrote "since the liturgical lives are so much different."

And to everyone else, yeah, what Lizzy wrote above is what I'm familiar with, too. You can be married in the Eastern Catholic church, but you have to be married before a certain point in your studies, and if you are married, then there's only so far you can move up the "corporate ladder," so to speak.

ETA: Keyla, as of 1999, I think it was, married men are once again allowed to be Eastern Catholic priests in North America. At my church right now, we have a deacon-on-his-way-to-becoming-a-priest who is married with three little boys.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that Eastern rite priests say the Divine Liturgy daily. Most Latin priests do offer a public daily Mass. That is mostly what I meant. Both rites require daily recitation of the Office. Do Byzantines to that publicly? Just curious.

Also, and correct me again if I am wrong, but aren't most Eastern Catholic parishes in the west relatively small? It is not uncommon for a Latin Rite parish run by a single priest to be responsible for the sacramental life of over a 1000 members.

[crazyforkate]

I had never heard this term before and my girlfriend and i just giggled hilariously. We imagined monkeys with crowns and shit.

Yeah, that's what everyone imagines. Including the clergy. And honestly, in some cases it's not too big a difference.

[Nothing2CHere]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that Eastern rite priests say the Divine Liturgy daily. Most Latin priests do offer a public daily Mass. That is mostly what I meant. Both rites require daily recitation of the Office. Do Byzantines to that publicly? Just curious.

It might depend on the church whether it's public or not. I'm pretty sure my church's daily liturgy is public. Of course, my church is also my eparchy's cathedral.

Also, and correct me again if I am wrong, but aren't most Eastern Catholic parishes in the west relatively small? It is not uncommon for a Latin Rite parish run by a single priest to be responsible for the sacramental life of over a 1000 members.

Compared to the Roman Catholic churches, yes, we are smaller in numbers. Part of that has to do with original immigration. A lot of people who came to the US as Byzantine Catholics deflected to the Orthodox church because they didn't like the way the western rite was, for lack of a better term, trampling on the eastern rite traditions (one of those things being the concept of the married priest). I remember growing up in the 80's and hearing that certain area Byzantine priests were still trying to re-easternize some area parishes, because the western rite influence was so heavily applied to those churches. Because of where I live, there are several Byzantine churches in my area, but still much fewer than the Roman Catholic churches.

[finleeport]

I don't think that allowing priests to marry and have children would completely solve the issue. In Eastern Orthodox Church, priests *are* allowed to marry, and there aren't as many cases of sexual abuse (there are some, though...see pokrov.org). What I saw with the married priests was not abusive, but it was still pretty f*cked up...see: the married priest who told me orgasm was not necessary for women, but it was for men.

Further, it's a hard life for the wife of a priest. For one, they're in a fishbowl (as are all clergy spouses, I suppose), and the rules of Orthodox church are so vast and strict that the wife can get yelled by parishoners at for virtually anthing - having too short of sleeves, not being involved enough in the church, having too many children (a sign that she and the priest are having too much sex), not having enough children (are they using birth control???? Heavens!) that kind of thing. It's really a no win situation. Yes, married priests are allowed to have sex, but the lifestyle does not contribute to happy/healthy families and marriages, in my opinion. In some cases, the wives have to hold down jobs and raise the kids basically on their own while the priest has all the responsibility for his parish (with late-night calls for unction in the hospital, to bring communion to sick people, etc). Plus he's at the mercy of the bishop who can send him to a new parish, can tell him he has to travel to a remote area 2x/month to do services on top of his parish duties, etc etc. And, priests aren't paid all that well.

Yes, priests' wives have a special title in Orthodox church (Matushka/Presvytera, depending on language), but whooppee....they still have a hard life.

I think a better solution is that churches need to stay out of people's bedrooms, period; they need to have strict protocols of alterting the police first (not the bishop) when cases of abuse arise, and the need to de-centralize power so that the responsibility for a congregation is not all on one man.

This is exactly why just "marriage for priests" sucks for the wives.

That's not always the case in Greek Orthodox Churches, the wife of a priest I know of is "liberal-minded" and doesn't think orgasm is only for men.

[liltwinstar]

In Eastern Orthodox parishes, Divine Liturgy is not served daily. It's typically served only on Sundays and major feast days. If the parish is robust, it would be served on some minor feast days as well. The exception is that a priest will serve Liturgy for 40 consecutive days after his ordination, if possible, so he can practice. Also, in monasteries where there are several priests available to do so, Liturgy is served daily (I know it is at Holy Trinity in Jordanville, for example).

Ok, so, in the Orthodox churches I was a part of, you are not allowed to have sex for 24 hours before Holy Communion and for 24 hours after Holy Communion. Thus, a married priest could *not* serve daily liturgy and still have sex with his wife. If a married priest *does* serve daily liturgy, that can raise eyebrows in the community because everyone "knows" he's not sleeping with his wife (or shouldn't be). Most parishes only have one priest. Further, married lay couples would not receive daily communion, either, because then they couldn't have sex (the sex rule is not just for priests). In Cathedrals, where more than one priest is assigned, there may be daily Liturgies if there are enough priests to go around. In monasteries, obviously, the sex thing isn't (shouldn't be) an issue, so that's why some of them have daily Liturgy.

During Lent, Liturgy *cannot* be performed on weekedays - there is the Liturgy of the presanctified gifts, but I don't know if that can be done daily or not (in parishes it's usually done on Wednesday, maybe Friday too). Regardless, the liturgical cycle during Lent is crazy hard (8+ hours/day of church time, if you do everything you're supposed to), so there really isn't time to do Liturgy in there anyway.

Also, for lay people in Orthodox Church, Holy Communion/Divine Liturgy is the pinnacle of spiritual practice, yes, but it's not the daily focus as it seems to be in Catholic church. The preparation required for Holy Communion is pretty extensive, so most people in the more traditional parishes only receive communion 4-6x/year. So, there isn't as much of a need for daily Liturgy, becuase people wouldn't be receiving Communion daily anyway. Children younger than 7 can receive Holy Communion without the extensive preparation, though, so it wasn't uncommon to see a bunch of children lining up for communion and only a couple adults. The rest of church time is plenty full with Matins, Vespers, Hours, Compline, etc etc not to mention Morning and Evening prayers and such, so there's no lack of prayers to say, even without a Liturgy!

Anyway, if the Eastern Rite Catholic Church is similar to Eastern Orthodox practice, there isn't the same need/desire for a daily Liturty/Mass that there seems to be with Western Rite churches.

[liltwinstar]

That's not always the case in Greek Orthodox Churches, the wife of a priest I know of is "liberal-minded" and doesn't think orgasm is only for men.

That's good! The priests I knew were ultra-conservative. Crazily so, in my opinion.

I think the Greeks tend to be more easy going than the Russians. I have a theory that it's because Greece has way better weather than Russia - how can you overthink spirituality when living in such a temperate, beautiful place? Russia, on the other hand, is cold a lot of the time and life was really hard there for the peasants...thus (according to my theory) the spiritual practice emerged as more punative and demanding. Just a theory :)

[Hane]

Yeah, that's what everyone imagines. Including the clergy. And honestly, in some cases it's not too big a difference.

Already had heard the term "primate" used in this sense--but thanks to both of you for my biggest laugh today!

[Nothing2CHere]

Anyway, if the Eastern Rite Catholic Church is similar to Eastern Orthodox practice, there isn't the same need/desire for a daily Liturty/Mass that there seems to be with Western Rite churches.

OK, evidently this is a big difference between the Eastern Rite Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church. Our churches may look alike, our liturgies may be similar, but I have never, ever, EVER heard of those sex restrictions in the Byzantine Catholic church (clergy or lay couples) for receiving communion or celebrating liturgy. And my father was going to become a priest, so they probably would have been mentioned to me at some point, or mentioned during our pre-cana classes.

As for the daily mass/liturgy question, I did some searching online for recent area bulletins. I still don't know if daily liturgy during the week is required, but it does appear to be practiced, at least in the BC churches in my area. Whether required or not, it is a way for the church to get donations, because the daily liturgies are said in the memory of specific deceased people, and the person who has requested the mass has made a donation to the church. Again, I do live in an urban area with a high concentration of Byzantine Catholics, so it could vary in more rural areas.