Can somebody explain Kosher to me?

[lizzy]

I was reading Kochava's last post about her color coded kitchen.

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com

 

I'm not a Jew so maybe it is obvious, but why cannot they just wash the dishes and utensils in between touching meat and dairy?

[pomology]

I was reading Kochava's last post about her color coded kitchen.

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com

I'm not a Jew so maybe it is obvious, but why cannot they just wash the dishes and utensils in between touching meat and dairy?

Because if something is touched by meat or dairy it becomes "meat" or "dairy" unless it goes through an extensive process like boiling or being blowtorched or buried in dirt. Why? Don't ask me. Some Rabbis at some point decided that that was the case, because they didn't want Jews to even remotely risk getting close to breaking God's commandments. I'm sure that seems silly to the outsider and perhaps it is, but that's just how Judaism is. But we understand that we're weird, so we don't want or expect anybody else to do it. ;)

ETA: Certainly materials can only be kashered (made kosher) in certain ways. So, while kashering glass, I've heard, is relatively easy, other things aren't. I'm not so down with the specific rules as I've never had my own kitchen and also don't eat meat, so even when I have my own kitchen will probably only have one set of dishes, because I won't ever eat anything that's not dairy or pareve.

[ricky_ticky]

When I told my best friend who keeps a Kosher kitchen that she was supposed to have blowtorched her oven she looked at me like I was nuts and shook her head.

Having been raised a good I-wegian, I once always took a dish to pass or dessert to any home where I was invited for a meal. Now I'm too scared to take anything into a Kosher kitchen, (and realistically there are so many dietary restrictions out there I've stopped taking food most places.) I was sleeping over at my friend's once after working late, so I ate my fast food in the car rather than risk contaminating her home with a cheeseburger.

My friend did tell me she had to get rid of several nice saucepans she loved because there was no way to get them Kosher.

[TheJewAmongUs]

It's in the Torah somewhere not to cook a baby in it's mother's milk. If the food is being cooked, the cooking vessels/utensils are designated for one or the other.

Like pomology said, it's just how it is an we just accept it. (Or not. I happen to fall in the not.)

[Beeks]

There are also many people who keep some level of kosher without going all the way into color-coding and blow torching. Some people simply avoid pork and shellfish, some people serve meat and dairy at separate meals, etc. There are a million different ways to be "kosher" in some way.

[ilovetchotchkes]

There are also many people who keep some level of kosher without going all the way into color-coding and blow torching. Some people simply avoid pork and shellfish, some people serve meat and dairy at separate meals, etc. There are a million different ways to be "kosher" in some way.

This would be our family.

We don't mix red meat and dairy, ever ever ever at home or out of the house. No shrimpies, no pork in the house or otherwise.

However when I'm pregnant I eat dairy and poultry together because well, with this one, i've been craving my mother's fried chicken and mashed potatoes. HER mashed potatoes with LOTS OF BUTTER IN THEM. *ahem* because you know, you can't MILK A CHICKEN.

My husband' doesn't eat dairy and poultry together regardless.

I DO have a separate set of passover dishes. Because I'm clinically insane probably. Now, thinking about it, I have no zarking idea where they are right now. O_O

At one point i was going to kasher the kitchen but why bother? I don't know any Orthodox Jews and I'm sure they'd be less than willing to eat in my Reform kitchen. If my children ever decide to keep Kosher Orthodox style, I will kasher the kitchen so that they can eat over here.

[pomology]

This would be our family.

We don't mix red meat and dairy, ever ever ever at home or out of the house. No shrimpies, no pork in the house or otherwise.

However when I'm pregnant I eat dairy and poultry together because well, with this one, i've been craving my mother's fried chicken and mashed potatoes. HER mashed potatoes with LOTS OF BUTTER IN THEM. *ahem* because you know, you can't MILK A CHICKEN.

My husband' doesn't eat dairy and poultry together regardless.

I DO have a separate set of passover dishes. Because I'm clinically insane probably. Now, thinking about it, I have no zarking idea where they are right now. O_O

At one point i was going to kasher the kitchen but why bother? I don't know any Orthodox Jews and I'm sure they'd be less than willing to eat in my Reform kitchen. If my children ever decide to keep Kosher Orthodox style, I will kasher the kitchen so that they can eat over here.

Yeah, my parents have three sets of dishes (meat, dairy, Pesach) and we never eat anything out-and-out not kosher or non-hecshered meat, but somebody who was Orthodox and strictly kosher probably wouldn't eat in our house anyway, because we eat things like unhecshered cheeses.

ETA: Lizzy, this reminds me of the conversations I had this summer with my Catholic coworker. She told me about Catholicism and I tried and probably failed to explain the, uh, let's call them eccentricities, of Judaism to her.

[Beeks]

This would be our family.

We don't mix red meat and dairy, ever ever ever at home or out of the house. No shrimpies, no pork in the house or otherwise.

However when I'm pregnant I eat dairy and poultry together because well, with this one, i've been craving my mother's fried chicken and mashed potatoes. HER mashed potatoes with LOTS OF BUTTER IN THEM. *ahem* because you know, you can't MILK A CHICKEN.

My husband' doesn't eat dairy and poultry together regardless.

I DO have a separate set of passover dishes. Because I'm clinically insane probably. Now, thinking about it, I have no zarking idea where they are right now. O_O

At one point i was going to kasher the kitchen but why bother? I don't know any Orthodox Jews and I'm sure they'd be less than willing to eat in my Reform kitchen. If my children ever decide to keep Kosher Orthodox style, I will kasher the kitchen so that they can eat over here.

Funny - we are getting a new oven/range/microwave and I said to my husband "hey this would be a great opportunity to kasher the kitchen!" He agreed. I am not sure we'll really go through with it, for basically the same reason as you. It feels a bit silly when no orthodox person would eat here anyway,

[TheJewAmongUs]

*ahem* because you know, you can't MILK A CHICKEN.

That's always been my thought on this one. If I can't have cheese on my turkey sandwich, I'm not happy. And if I'm not happy...

[ilovetchotchkes]

That's always been my thought on this one. If I can't have cheese on my turkey sandwich, I'm not happy. And if I'm not happy...

Someone more observant than me explained that someone could SEE You eating it and assume it was red meat and therefore assume it was OK to eat red meat because you were doing it.

Quite frankly, if you can't figure the difference between roast beef and deli turkey, you've got a LOT BIGGER problems than kashrut.

[pomology]

Someone more observant than me explained that someone could SEE You eating it and assume it was red meat and therefore assume it was OK to eat red meat because you were doing it.

Quite frankly, if you can't figure the difference between roast beef and deli turkey, you've got a LOT BIGGER problems than kashrut.

As I said in my first post, kashrut is the way it is because a bunch of Rabbis decided that was how things should be and so it was. They probably had those bigger problems that you're referring to. ;)

[TheJewAmongUs]

Someone more observant than me explained that someone could SEE You eating it and assume it was red meat and therefore assume it was OK to eat red meat because you were doing it.

This is a good example of, "When you substitute your own logic, (and you're an idiot,) you make an ass out of you and me."

Maybe I got that quote wrong...

[SheWoreLemon]

http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm

All utensils, plates, pots and pans, etc. have little nicks, divots or scratches where tiny food particles could hide and not get washed out before the next meal. That way you could mix meat and dairy by mistake.

[Peas n carrots]

There is a kosher pizzeria near my house. Basically, you can only get cheese or veggie pizza there. Though they also offer tons of other Israeli food there.

Just asking, but I would imagine outside of major metro centers it would probably be difficult to keep a kasher kitchen?

[LucySnowe]

When I was growing up we did the whole four-sets-of-dishes thing (milk and meat, and then again for Passover), but eventually things loosened up to the point of 'you can eat Taco Bell in the house, but only on paper plates' and then when an earthquake took out most of the dishes that was pretty much the end of kashrut in my family house. :)

Peas n carrots - it's tougher to keep kosher if you're not in a Jewish area, yeah, but it can be done. I know someone in Edinburgh who manages to do it, but he basically never eats out. I believe the Orthodox congregation arranges for deliveries through from Glasgow, which has many more Jews and thus more options for kosher groceries. Many things don't need to be certified kosher, also (Kochava has a list somewhere on her blog).

One of my relatives lives in a very rural part of California and I genuinely think he is the only Jew for 100 miles around, but the big supermarket still has a Jewish foods section.

[evenstar210]

It's more difficult to keep kosher in areas without a Jewish population.

Many, many products are kosher certified, so if you were a vegan you'd probably be fine. It's the kosher meat and certain cheeses that require you to live in a Jewish area. Although in my experience most grocery stores have an "ethnic foods" aisle where they stock the more traditional kosher products: gefilte fish, matzah, borscht even.

[bananacat]

While we're on the topic, can someone explain to me why meat-free things would have to be labeled as Kosher. I'm just curious because sometimes I see Kosher lollipops or other candy, but I don't understand how it could possibly be non-Kosher.

[thoughtful]

Chiming in to sort out the language, in case non-Jewish readers wonder why there are three different words being used:

kosher -- adjective (Is this meat kosher?)

kashrut -- noun (Kashrut was hard for my father to learn when he married my mother)

kasher -- verb (Is it worth kashering this pot, or should we just get a new one?)

I don't keep kosher at all, but was raised on it. My Mom still keeps kosher, and we live together in a two-family house. She comes from the Conservative tradition -- sort of the "middle" between Orthodox and Reformed.

She has six sets of dishes - meat and dairy dishes and flatware for everyday, the same for dressier occasions, a few parve things (mostly flatware for prep, and uses like keeping the mayo parve -- no dishes), and two sets for Passover.

She has separate glassware for Passover, but uses the same drinking glasses for meat and dairy meals during the rest of the year.

She has it all down to a science, and finds it no trouble at all. She doesn't let it be a burden to anyone else. She also considers it a symbolic observance, and doesn't freak out or re-kasher an object, if a visitor makes a mistake. There's no sense that the object has somehow been "tainted."

Relatives and friends who visit follow the same traditions, or are less-observant Jews or non-Jews, so there isn't anyone Orthodox coming to visit, who might be unwilling to eat in her home.

I fall right into it, when I'm eating in her part of the house, or helping in the kitchen. My sample sentence above was true -- my father, who was not raised with it, found it hard to learn -- we had little labels on all of the cabinets and drawers when I was growing up, to remind him.

Mom will eat in any restaurant -- she usually gets salmon, but I think that's more because she adores salmon than to avoid unkosher meat! :D She doesn't eat pork or shellfish, or mix meat and dairy even when eating out, though.

[thoughtful]

While we're on the topic, can someone explain to me why meat-free things would have to be labeled as Kosher. I'm just curious because sometimes I see Kosher lollipops or other candy, but I don't understand how it could possibly be non-Kosher.

When I was growing up, there were animal products in lots of things that one wouldn't think of as "meat" -- Oreo cookies had lard, Jello had gelatin from animal hooves, Brillo pads had (and still have) animal-protein-based soap, etc. So that entered into it, although I think it's less of a problem now.

BTW, those are still in my memory after all these years because I can clearly picture the Hydrox cookies, Ko-jel dessert, and Rokeach soap pads that we had!

Also, a facility that processes food might process non-kosher food on the same machinery, or simply haven't had their process inspected and approved by an authority on kashrut. Some folks keep a level of kashrut for which that is unacceptable.

Why am I craving bacon now? :lol:

[pomology]

There is a kosher pizzeria near my house. Basically, you can only get cheese or veggie pizza there. Though they also offer tons of other Israeli food there.

Just asking, but I would imagine outside of major metro centers it would probably be difficult to keep a kasher kitchen?

No. Why would it be?

ETA: Oh, I see, you were referring to purchasing kosher food products, which yes, might be difficult in some places. Although it depends both on what you mean by major metro center and how many Jews there are there. For some reason I thought you meant it was difficult to actually keep your kitchen kosher outside of major metro areas, e.g. keeping multiple sets of dishes, etc. and I was confused.

[pomology]

While we're on the topic, can someone explain to me why meat-free things would have to be labeled as Kosher. I'm just curious because sometimes I see Kosher lollipops or other candy, but I don't understand how it could possibly be non-Kosher.

Something being certified as kosher means that there is a Rabbi known as a masgiach overseeing the operation to makes sure that things are kosher and that the same equipment isn't used for things that could possibly be unkosher. So, it's a lot more about the observation process and the equipment used than the food itself.

ETA: There are problems with certain cheese and wines and other things, but I don't really know that much about it, because I don't care, so I can't go more in depth about it.

[Ralar]

That's always been my thought on this one. If I can't have cheese on my turkey sandwich, I'm not happy. And if I'm not happy...

King David shared your viewpoint. THen some rabbis came along and started the whole, "but someone may see you and THINK you are violating the law."

The Rabbis came up with a workaround. If you are having a meat dish with a non-dairy milk (coconut, almond or soy, for example), you should place the milk container on the table near the dish. That way anyone passing by and seeing your dish would realize you are not mixing meat and dairy-milk.

[Ralar]

Someone more observant than me explained that someone could SEE You eating it and assume it was red meat and therefore assume it was OK to eat red meat because you were doing it.

Quite frankly, if you can't figure the difference between roast beef and deli turkey, you've got a LOT BIGGER problems than kashrut.

Back in the day, [all] poultry was free range. The meat was not as light in color as it is today, and may have looked more like red meat.

[Peas n carrots]

No. Why would it be?

ETA: Oh, I see, you were referring to purchasing kosher food products, which yes, might be difficult in some places. Although it depends both on what you mean by major metro center and how many Jews there are there. For some reason I thought you meant it was difficult to actually keep your kitchen kosher outside of major metro areas, e.g. keeping multiple sets of dishes, etc. and I was confused.

I grew up in rural Middle America , but I now live in an Orthodox Jewish area of Chicagoland. Growing up, there was exactly one Jewish guy in my small town (NY transplant who got a job as a school district psychologist) and I don't think he was terribly observant. The stores in my little town didn't have an ethnic section, much less Jewish section. Where I live now, there are grocery stores, Kosher Subways, Kosher KFC, delis, bakeries etc that I would imagine make life easier.

I think I was more or less contemplating how challenging it would be to strictly observe certain diets in areas where the majority don't follow those rules.

I have another question though...from what I understand, Halal has a lot of similar dietary restrictions as well. But in what ways do Halal and Kosher contrast?

[pomology]

I grew up in rural Middle America , but I now live in an Orthodox Jewish area of Chicagoland. Growing up, there was exactly one Jewish guy in my small town (NY transplant who got a job as a school district psychologist) and I don't think he was terribly observant. The stores in my little town didn't have an ethnic section, much less Jewish section. Where I live now, there are grocery stores, Kosher Subways, Kosher KFC, delis, bakeries etc that I would imagine make life easier.

I think I was more or less contemplating how challenging it would be to strictly observe certain diets in areas where the majority don't follow those rules.

I have another question though...from what I understand, Halal has a lot of similar dietary restrictions as well. But in what ways do Halal and Kosher contrast?

Yeah, again, sorry I wasn't quite awake when I saw your question and really thought that it referred to the specific acts of keeping your kitchen kosher as opposed to finding the food that you bring into it (in retrospect, I'm not really sure why I thought that, but whatever).

I mean, I live in a town of 30,000 people, but it's in suburban NJ halfway between NYC and Philly and has a ton of Jews, so it's easy to keep kosher. I spent this past summer in Springfield, Illinois which has a relatively small Jewish community (two synagogues, neither of which is Orthodox) and it has 100,000 people, which I would NOT call a major metro area, but I wouldn't say it was particularly difficult to keep kosher there (but then again, I didn't eat any meat while there, so I don't know how hard it would have been to find kosher meat. Perhaps difficult, as a woman I met at synagogue was telling me I should go to a kosher grocery store in Chicago when I was going to go visit some relatives there). But in a small town where there are less than 50 Jews, non of whom are particularly observant? Yeah, I'm sure that would be a lot more difficult.

But most people who care about keeping very strictly kosher live in Orthodox communities. Of course, there are always exceptions, like the Chabad Rabbi and his family who live in tiny town where my college is in a rural area of a midwestern state where all the Jews pretty much associated with the college in some way and don't tend towards the terribly observant. I assume they get their food from the big city about an hour away from my college, but I also imagine it's pretty rough for them.