The Bible And Finances

[debrand]

On another thread, someone mentioned that the bible talks about things like not going into debt etc. I was wondering what you guys think that the bible teaches about finances

 

One thing that has struck me is that despite its faults the bible does say a lot about helping the poor. Farmers were supposed to leave the corners of their fields uncut so that poor people could use that for food. Every few years all debts were forgiven. Jesus talked about giving your extra coat to the poor. There seems to be the constant theme that everyone should share their excess with those without. There really is not judgement about why those people are poor.

 

So, what do you think the bible teaches about finances?

 

 

Proverbs 14:31 He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.

 

Proverbs 17:5

He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished.

[Grace]

As a Christian, I definitely believe we have an obligation to share our excess with the poor at least on some level.

I'd like to put these on a billboard on some of our fundy's lawns:

1 Timothy 5:8

"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

2 Thessalonians 3:10

"For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat."

Besides that here are a few other verses related to $$

Matthew 6:24

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

We're supposed to save:

Proverbs 6:6–8

"Go to the ant, O sluggard, observe her ways and be wise, which, having no chief, officer or ruler, prepares her food in the summer and gathers her provision in the harvest."

Proverbs 21:20

"In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil, but a foolish man devours all he has."

Say no to debt:

Proverbs 22:7

"The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender."

Romans 13:8

"Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law."

Proverbs 22:26–27

"Do not be one of those who shakes hands in a pledge, one of those who is surety for debts; if you have nothing with which to pay, why should he take away your bed from under you?"

Proverbs 17:18

"It's stupid to guarantee someone else's loan."

Budgeting

Proverbs 27:23

"Be diligent to know the state of your flocks, and attend to your herds."

Luke 14:28–30

"For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it—lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying 'This man began to build and was not able to finish'?"

[Arielkay]

One thing I'll never figure out is how people can claim to be Christian and then bitch about any of their taxes going to the poor. Does not compute.

[debrand]

There are also many verses that speak of god getting really pissed at people who did not take care of the poor. I underlined one verse that shows god getting angry over the treatment of the poor but there are many others.

I wish that I could claim that I was so knowledgable that I found this references myself but they come from this site:

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/poor.htm

"Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan." Exodus 22:22

"Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits." Exodus 23:6

"During the seventh year, let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what they leave. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Exodus 23:11

"Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:10

"When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 23:22

"If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his property, his nearest relative is to come and redeem what his countryman has sold. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave." Leviticus 25:25, 35, 39

""He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing." Deuteronomy 10:18

"At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied." Deuteronomy 14:28-29

"However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you." Deuteronomy 15:4

"If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother." Deuteronomy 15:7

"Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near, so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin." Deuteronomy 15:9

"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." Deuteronomy 15:11

"Do not take advantage of a hired man who is poor and needy, whether he is a brother Israelite or an alien living in one of your towns." Deuteronomy 24:14

"Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge." Deuteronomy 24:17

"When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow." Deuteronomy 24:19-21

" Because of the oppression of the weak and the groaning of the needy, I will now arise, says the LORD, I will protect them from those who malign them. " Psalm 12:5 "You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge." Psalm 14:6

""My whole being will exclaim, Who is like you, 0 LORD? You rescue the poor from those too strong for them, the poor and needy from those who rob them.'" Psalm 35:10

"

[maybeizfundie]

Overall in generalities (since I'm posting here instead of working on my budget :lol: )

-We should be giving generously, even sacrificially out of what has been given to us. Over and above "tithe" or chuch donations.

-Debt is not something to be sought after, it happens, but it's not a "good".

-There needs to be a balance between wise use of money/investment and materialism/greed.

-And actual money aside, working hard and doing our job with excellence and integrity is important. Much of the time, that will have tangible benefits, but we still need to operate that even if we're not getting anything tangible out of it.

With regards to the charity/taxes issue, my understanding is that people are not chafing at the idea of giving to the poor, but at the idea that the government is deciding for them how much and how the money is taken from them, and to whom it goes in what form. Given the statistics on how little evangelical Christians give right now in personal charity, I think there is maybe a bit of idealism about how much that would increase if taxes weren't being taken for the welfare system, even though I understand some of the frustrations of how the system is currently run.

[Esteleth]

I read an essay from a self-described evangelical (I want to say it was Jim Wallis) who, in order to make the point that God really cares about the importance of taking care of the poor, took a Bible and a pair of scissors. He cut out every single reference to helping poor people. He was left with a tattered mess that only could vaguely be described as a book.

I thought that was impressive. He takes this Bible to meetings with other evangelicals and waves it in people's faces. He takes the attitude that Christians need to either (1) acknowledge that the Bible commands the faithful to take care of the poor and weak and obey these commandments or (2) openly admit that they don't care and won't obey. Saying the Bible doesn't actually say so is lying.

[debrand]

I don't know where I found this article so you have to take my word for its existence. :D Recently, I read that one of the reasons Christianity was successful in gaining converts during its early years was because the religion placed such such an emphasis on helping the poor.

[Kaylee]

One thing I'll never figure out is how people can claim to be Christian and then bitch about any of their taxes going to the poor. Does not compute.

Agreed. People who do this usually complain because it's mandated and say that either charity or the church is supposed to provide for the poor instead. Typically, they are not giving to charities either and, if they give to the church, they tend to be the type who support huge building programs rather than helping the poor.

[jericho]

I believe one reason that debt is looked upon as bad in the bible is because it goes against being able to help the poor. How can we help the needy when we ourselves are slaved in debt. In fact, debt is just a glorified way of being poor. It's like saying, "hey i have no money either, but I can still buy stuff and act like it".

[Shina]

Arielkay wrote:

One thing I'll never figure out is how people can claim to be Christian and then bitch about any of their taxes going to the poor. Does not compute.

Agreed times 20! Or, in the immortal words of Stephen Colbert:

“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.â€

Also, where in the Bible does it say that having debt is bad? Jericho is not the first person to tout the line about your resources being tied up in debt instead of being available to help others, which I admit is a fair point. But every biblical reference to debt seems to talk about forgiving the debtors. Any scholars or less lazy people care to help me out here?

[Kaylee]

Also, where in the Bible does it say that having debt is bad? Jericho is not the first person to tout the line about your resources being tied up in debt instead of being available to help others, which I admit is a fair point. But every biblical reference to debt seems to talk about forgiving the debtors. Any scholars or less lazy people care to help me out here?

The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender. (Proverbs 22:7)

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." (Romans 13:8)

The wicked borrow and do not repay, but the righteous give generously. (Psalm 37:21)

“For the LORD your God will bless you as He has promised you, and you will lend to many nations, but you will not borrow; and you will rule over many nations, but they will not rule over you. (Deuteronomy 15:6)

“The LORD will open for you His good storehouse, the heavens, to give rain to your land in its season and to bless all the work of your hand; and you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. (Deuteronomy 28:12)

Those are the ones most people use, especially the first two.

My interpretation is that it is better not to borrow if you can avoid it, and to be careful and not take out debt you cannot repay, but I don't think the Bible prohibits all borrowing. You could technically say Christians should not be borrowing from or lending to eachother, but should meet eachother's needs out of charity, but then you'd get called a socialist and told that can't possibly work in the "real world".

The first 3 verses are relatively clear, although I hate how many people use Romans 13:8 out of context as a verse about money, when it is talking about love and how we treat other people. It's more about our "debt" to humanity to treat others well, not about taking out a loan.

The versus from Deuteronomy are also misapplied in most cases. Those were very specific promises to Israel as a people/nation, not to individuals, and not to modern day Americans, Canadians or whatever.

[jericho]

My interpretation is that it is better not to borrow if you can avoid it, and to be careful and not take out debt you cannot repay, but I don't think the Bible prohibits all borrowing. You could technically say Christians should not be borrowing from or lending to eachother, but should meet eachother's needs out of charity, but then you'd get called a socialist and told that can't possibly work in the "real world".

Actually, Socialism would be if you were forced to give your money to other not as well off. It then wouldn't be charity but a mandate.

[Guest Anonymous]

Actually, Socialism would be if you were forced to give your money to other not as well off. It then wouldn't be charity but a mandate.

Actually, the Bible does mandate giving your money (goods, etc.) to those who are not as well off.

Example: 2 Corinthians 13 - 15.

13 For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction, but by way of equality-14 at this present time your abundance being a supply for their need, so that their abundance also may become a supply for your need, that there may be equality;15 as it is written, "HE WHO gathered MUCH DID NOT HAVE TOO MUCH, AND HE WHO gathered LITTLE HAD NO LACK."

There's dozens more examples where that one came from.

[formergothardite]

Jesus couldn't have had too much issue with people borrowing because he said: "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.â€

That is not exactly "borrowing is evil so send those people away so they won't be in debt."

[bananacat]

Of course I'll start this with the usual caveat that I'm really cruel and going to Hell.

But, I'm pretty sure that the main objection about taxes has nothing to do with being forced to help people. The problem fundies have is that they don't have the power to make that help conditional. They can't use their "charity" as a bludgeon to force people to behave a certain way. I used to be very active in volunteer work and I always hated when overly religious people would deign to help us once a month. And I absolutely loathed any volunteer effort with my church youth group. There was always a very heavy emphasis on acting nice to lure people in and convert them. There was also the attitude that if we give help to people, we've earned the right to judge them. In a few cases it's very overt and people are required to join the church for help, but that's pretty rare. Instead, it's a more subtle manipulation but the recipients can still feel it.

But when you give taxes to the government and they pass it on to poor people, you don't have the power to pressure them into living your lifestyle. You don't have the power to refuse it to people you find objectionable. And you especially don't get to feel all superior and holier-than-thou for doing it.

And that's the real objection to helping needy through government versus helping needy through private religious charities.

[Deleted07]

Yeah I never understand how Jim-Boob is always quoting "owe no man nothing but love" as the basis for him being debt-free... meanwhile its OK for him to be owed more than that in his commercial properties and businesses that he rents out!

[roddma]

i find the entire 'But they are debt-free' used to support the Duggars is tiresome and loses ground. It is just a bad bragging about being debt-free as it is being in debt or buying frivolous. I think some don't understand where the Duggars came from and the lengths Fundies take to stay debt-free. It is often at the expense of the children but try telling fans that. Obviously, Gothard has a big problem with loans. He believes if one can't control his debt then he can't control their moral character. I also don't see anything prohibiting borrowing money in the Bible. This isn't saying buy the best of everything. IMO if you deny your family the basics because of your stubbornness you are breaking 1 Tim 5:8.

[Burris]

As a Christian, I definitely believe we have an obligation to share our excess with the poor at least on some level.

I'd like to put these on a billboard on some of our fundy's lawns:

1 Timothy 5:8

"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

2 Thessalonians 3:10

"For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat."

Besides that here are a few other verses related to $$

Matthew 6:24

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

We're supposed to save:

Proverbs 6:6–8

"Go to the ant, O sluggard, observe her ways and be wise, which, having no chief, officer or ruler, prepares her food in the summer and gathers her provision in the harvest."

Proverbs 21:20

"In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil, but a foolish man devours all he has."

Say no to debt:

Proverbs 22:7

"The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender."

Romans 13:8

"Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law."

Proverbs 22:26–27

"Do not be one of those who shakes hands in a pledge, one of those who is surety for debts; if you have nothing with which to pay, why should he take away your bed from under you?"

Proverbs 17:18

"It's stupid to guarantee someone else's loan."

Budgeting

Proverbs 27:23

"Be diligent to know the state of your flocks, and attend to your herds."

Luke 14:28–30

"For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it—lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying 'This man began to build and was not able to finish'?"

Here's some more of what it says:

1) Work if you can. A failure to work when one has the ability and the opportunity is condemned in the Bible. Work is also described as a means to completing obligations to those in need:

You yourselves know that these hands ministered [i.e., worked] to my necessities ['to put food on the table,' as it were] and to those who were with me. In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ – Acts 20:34-35

2) Avoid debt whenever you can. (There is no universal prohibition against incurring debt in the Bible. If there were, then there would be no prohibitions against usury or laws concerning the handling of debt - and there are. But foolish debt is always condemned.)

3) And most importantly, you have a non-delegable and inarguable duty to help the needy and the oppressed.

GLEANING: Deuteronomy 10:18 and Deuteronomy 15:7-11.

PROVIDING FOR OTHERS' BASIC NEEDS: James 2:15-17 and Isaiah 58:7-11

COMMUNITY RESPONSIBILITY: At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns. And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do. – Deuteronomy 14:29-29

If you fail in that, then you are like unto the Sodomites (whose crimes had nothing to do with homosexuality): Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. – Ezekiel 16:49

There's also the system of kinsman redemption. A practical application of this (and generous interpretation of the same on the part of Boaz) can be seen in the Book of Ruth.

The above is not even close to a comprehensive treatment of the topic, but the theme here is thick through the whole Bible.