Taylor Swift vs Nicki Minaj

[ShepherdontheRock]

Did Taylor Swift forget to read anything about intersectionality in Feminism for Dummies?

Or does she just not give a shit?

ETA link- http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/22/entertain ... ylor-swft/

[DowntownAbbey]

As much as I like Taylor Swift, in this situation she reminds me of this:

[Nic]

Katy Perry jumped in calling out Taylor for being a hypocrite in the girls why can't we get along with one another:

theguardian.com/music/2015/jul/23/katy-perry-jumps-in-on-taylor-swift-v-nicki-minaj-row-calls-on-rihanna

Those 2 have a history:

businessinsider.com/why-katy-perry-and-taylor-swift-hate-each-other-2015-7

[VelociRapture]

Did Taylor Swift forget to read anything about intersectionality in Feminism for Dummies?

Or does she just not give a shit?

ETA link- http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/22/entertain ... ylor-swft/

See, I honestly don't think Taylor was lying in her apology when she said she misunderstood and then misspoke. I think she read the initial tweet and just reacted - and to be honest, I might have done the same in her position because Nicki's tweet (just in my personal opinion) did seem to be pointed mostly at Taylor (unless there is another artist nominated that had a ton of supermodels in their video with them).

Nicki might have been able to word it better - maybe make it clearer that she was speaking about MTV and not targeting the nominated artists (because they probably have no say in who gets nominated). Taylor probably should have just bit her tongue - rather than speaking out in the moment and causing a mess. Taylor realized that she misspoke though and she apologized because she felt like she should. Nicki accepted. To me, that shows maturity on both their parts.

I am curious what you guys think though. I want to have a better understanding and I'm hoping other people's opinions can help (People magazines comment section is the worst place to try and find that; FJ is much more enlightening!) -

So do you think Nicki was speaking to MTV specifically or do you think she was more frustrated by the music industry in general? I'm guessing its a combination of the two because Hollywood in general has a pretty shitty track record when it comes to honoring artists that aren't white. I'm sure Nicki put in a lot of work and effort to make that video; considering it was one of the most popular videos in the past year it does seem a bit odd that they didn't nominated her. . . but I don't know how they pick and choose either. I think this particular incident confuses me a bit because there are black artists who have been nominated frequently (and won) for this specific award; including Kendrick Lamar and Beyonce who are both nominated this year. Why pick this specific award to vent her frustration on? :think:

[Walking Cat Bed]

Honestly, I think both Nicki and Taylor reacted -- Nicki to being overlooked, Taylor to the "dig". And they've reconciled over what was really a misunderstanding.

I see the criteria for these kinds of awards and media reaction to and exaggeration of this as a "feud" as the real problem. And Katy Perry trying to stir shit up.

[ShepherdontheRock]

Actually, from what I read, the tweet seemed more directed at "Wrecking Ball" than anything, since Anaconda broke the records Wrecking Ball set, and Wrecking Ball won last year. But I honestly think it was worded so it could be general; and regardless of who it was actually aimed at, I think Taylor as the person of privilege acted very insensitively, and should have kept her mouth shut. She has a history of being involved in white feminism, which benefits mostly white upper-middle class women while ignoring or aggravating the unique problems nonwhite women face. I give her credit for trying to embrace feminism but it wasn't her place to try to tell Nicki how to be a good feminist here. Still, I'm glad she apologized. Hopefully she learns something and becomes a better feminist for it.

Also, I agree Katy was being stupid. She wouldn't have given a damn if Taylor weren't involved.

[VelociRapture]

Actually, from what I read, the tweet seemed more directed at "Wrecking Ball" than anything, since Anaconda broke the records Wrecking Ball set, and Wrecking Ball won last year. But I honestly think it was worded so it could be general; and regardless of who it was actually aimed at, I think Taylor as the person of privilege acted very insensitively, and should have kept her mouth shut. She has a history of being involved in white feminism, which benefits mostly white upper-middle class women while ignoring or aggravating the unique problems nonwhite women face. I give her credit for trying to embrace feminism but it wasn't her place to try to tell Nicki how to be a good feminist here. Still, I'm glad she apologized. Hopefully she learns something and becomes a better feminist for it.

Also, I agree Katy was being stupid. She wouldn't have given a damn if Taylor weren't involved.

Can you point out anything specific? I know she was criticized for having certain dance moves in one of her videos, but that didn't make much sense to me at the time - she wasn't attempting to appropriate anyone else's culture as much as she was telling people to just be yourself. Is there something more that I missed (I fully admit to probably missing a lot)?

As for promoting certain types of feminism - Maisie Williams had a similar criticism of Emma Watson's speech on feminism in the last year (I think she said that Emma was wrong to focus on fair wages when women around the world are being sexually abused or sold into slavery; it was something like that). My thoughts were that if someone is focusing on a specific type of feminism, then someone else needs to step up and speak out for other types. In regards to Emma Watson, it would have been far more helpful for Maisie to start speaking out in support of those women sold into slavery and denied educations than it was to simply criticize Emma for speaking about fair wages - one may be more important than the other, but both are still important.

Same goes for Taylor Swift - if another celebrity has an issue with her focusing (intentionally or otherwise) on just one type of feminism, then they should do their part to draw attention to other types.

(And yes, I realize you aren't a celebrity and can't draw that amount of attention. This was just speaking hypothetically :) )

I do agree that it was a rather poor decision on Taylor's part. She may have felt slighted, but the adult thing would have been to just ignore it or reach out to Nicki to ask what she meant before she said anything.

And yeah. Katy Perry was just looking to :stir-pot: . It would have been more mature for her to not say anything at all.

[ShepherdontheRock]

Can you point out anything specific? I know she was criticized for having certain dance moves in one of her videos, but that didn't make much sense to me at the time - she wasn't attempting to appropriate anyone else's culture as much as she was telling people to just be yourself. Is there something more that I missed (I fully admit to probably missing a lot)?

As for promoting certain types of feminism - Maisie Williams had a similar criticism of Emma Watson's speech on feminism in the last year (I think she said that Emma was wrong to focus on fair wages when women around the world are being sexually abused or sold into slavery; it was something like that). My thoughts were that if someone is focusing on a specific type of feminism, then someone else needs to step up and speak out for other types. In regards to Emma Watson, it would have been far more helpful for Maisie to start speaking out in support of those women sold into slavery and denied educations than it was to simply criticize Emma for speaking about fair wages - one may be more important than the other, but both are still important.

Same goes for Taylor Swift - if another celebrity has an issue with her focusing (intentionally or otherwise) on just one type of feminism, then they should do their part to draw attention to other types.

(And yes, I realize you aren't a celebrity and can't draw that amount of attention. This was just speaking hypothetically :) )

I do agree that it was a rather poor decision on Taylor's part. She may have felt slighted, but the adult thing would have been to just ignore it or reach out to Nicki to ask what she meant before she said anything.

And yeah. Katy Perry was just looking to :stir-pot: . It would have been more mature for her to not say anything at all.

RE the Emma Watson thing- I think the overall problem with Emma Watson's speech that converted Taylor Swift to feminism was that it didn't really bring anything to the table beyond being all "look, feminism isn't about hating men" (which I actually thought had already been established a billion times) which reinforces the gender binary of women needing men to save them. When they talk about feminism, it's from a view that centers on THEIR experience as rich white cishet women, completely ignoring the unique problems that all other women face. She mentions women making 78 cents to the man's dollar; that's WHITE women, latina and black women make considerably less than that. And, when women like Swift and Watson try to parade around like the leaders of feminism, it kind of creates an environment where all other women distrust feminism. Nicki Minaj has been an outspoken radfem for quite a while, and Beyonce has been all about feminism since forever, and yet the mainstream media doesn't seem to give a shit.

Granted, I'm not saying that Watson and Swift being feminists is necessarily a bad thing, or that Nicki Minaj and Beyonce have never done anything problematic either. And I still respect Emma Watson for coming forward about being a feminist in the face of rape culture, etc. But I think she should have also given a spotlight to women like Laverne Cox, who I think have way more to contribute to intersectional feminism, and maybe mentioned some other things.

Hope I've done a thorough/good enough job explaining this? As part of the demographic that most directly benefits from white feminism, maybe I've missed something, maybe someone else could help me with this?

[VelociRapture]

RE the Emma Watson thing- I think the overall problem with Emma Watson's speech that converted Taylor Swift to feminism was that it didn't really bring anything to the table beyond being all "look, feminism isn't about hating men" (which I actually thought had already been established a billion times) which reinforces the gender binary of women needing men to save them. When they talk about feminism, it's from a view that centers on THEIR experience as rich white cishet women, completely ignoring the unique problems that all other women face. She mentions women making 78 cents to the man's dollar; that's WHITE women, latina and black women make considerably less than that. And, when women like Swift and Watson try to parade around like the leaders of feminism, it kind of creates an environment where all other women distrust feminism. Nicki Minaj has been an outspoken radfem for quite a while, and Beyonce has been all about feminism since forever, and yet the mainstream media doesn't seem to give a shit.

Granted, I'm not saying that Watson and Swift being feminists is necessarily a bad thing, or that Nicki Minaj and Beyonce have never done anything problematic either. And I still respect Emma Watson for coming forward about being a feminist in the face of rape culture, etc. But I think she should have also given a spotlight to women like Laverne Cox, who I think have way more to contribute to intersectional feminism, and maybe mentioned some other things.

Hope I've done a thorough/good enough job explaining this? As part of the demographic that most directly benefits from white feminism, maybe I've missed something, maybe someone else could help me with this?

Thanks! I know I can get bothersome sometimes with my questions (or at least my parents think so.) I appreciate you taking the time to try and help me understand.

I do agree more attention needs to be paid to non-white women (and men) when it comes to... Well... Pretty much everything. I think a huge part of that lies with the media in general - like you said there are men and women talking about these things and they aren't getting picked up by the media.

Emma is still fairly young and she has (hopefully) a very long career ahead of her. With time she may turn her attention to other forms of feminism, especially considering she's the UN Women Goodwill Ambassador; I believe she has traveled internationally in her role already and that she's placed an emphasis on education as well (which is so important to a woman's future.) She has a great opportunity to help and I think with some guidance she could do very well.

I think it may be somewhat understandable that they focus on feminism that directly affects them at first because it's what they know - with time and experience hopefully they'll be able to learn more and will help advocate for others as well.

[sockinshoe]

I think you can have several interpretations of that particular video. I think the artistic intention was to have Taylor Swift look ridiculous trying out each of the dance styles and then just embrace the fact that she's not a particularly good dance. But the costumes and choreography don't really give the sense of a respectful nod to other artforms/cultures, but more of a game of dress up. I mean, Taylor looks dorky and is usually just a bit behind everyone else, but she's so cute while doing it that the message is kind of lost. Also there's a point where white girl Taylor crawls through a tunnel of twerking black women and all you see is their butts (and quirky adorkable Taylor in her "hip hop" get up). That raised a lot of concern because it is (probably unintentionally) emblematic of how some elements of traditional black beauty are fetishized (butts, namely), while beautiful or talented black women are not often permitted to express themselves in their entirety as they are.

But as for the different kinds of feminism, I think that whenever one feminist tells another they're doing it wrong, feminism collectively gets a little worse. There are many ways to skin a cat. Whether people focus on gender roles or equal pay or sex trafficking or any other goal that lifts women up, they are doing worthy work. Even privileged white women have a ways to go. I dislike people tearing others down with the "well they SHOULD have been focusing on a DIFFERENT issue". It just muddies the waters.

Emma Watson's speech was about one facet of a broader issue. She's young and probably not a researcher on feminist issues, so she's going to talk about her experience. Also her message of getting men to support women is one that can actually benefit women in places where they still (unfortunately) need a man to speak for them.

I wish we focused more on intersectionality. I wish I could say all feminism is good feminism, but then I'd be praising TERFS and SWERFS and that's just not on.

[VelociRapture]

I think you can have several interpretations of that particular video. I think the artistic intention was to have Taylor Swift look ridiculous trying out each of the dance styles and then just embrace the fact that she's not a particularly good dance. But the costumes and choreography don't really give the sense of a respectful nod to other artforms/cultures, but more of a game of dress up. I mean, Taylor looks dorky and is usually just a bit behind everyone else, but she's so cute while doing it that the message is kind of lost. Also there's a point where white girl Taylor crawls through a tunnel of twerking black women and all you see is their butts (and quirky adorkable Taylor in her "hip hop" get up). That raised a lot of concern because it is (probably unintentionally) emblematic of how some elements of traditional black beauty are fetishized (butts, namely), while beautiful or talented black women are not often permitted to express themselves in their entirety as they are.

But as for the different kinds of feminism, I think that whenever one feminist tells another they're doing it wrong, feminism collectively gets a little worse. There are many ways to skin a cat. Whether people focus on gender roles or equal pay or sex trafficking or any other goal that lifts women up, they are doing worthy work. Even privileged white women have a ways to go. I dislike people tearing others down with the "well they SHOULD have been focusing on a DIFFERENT issue". It just muddies the waters.

Emma Watson's speech was about one facet of a broader issue. She's young and probably not a researcher on feminist issues, so she's going to talk about her experience. Also her message of getting men to support women is one that can actually benefit women in places where they still (unfortunately) need a man to speak for them.

I wish we focused more on intersectionality. I wish I could say all feminism is good feminism, but then I'd be praising TERFS and SWERFS and that's just not on.

I feel like a complete idiot saying this - but I had no clue there was a term like intersectionality. . . I actually had to find an article to define it for me to figure out what you guys meant. I also had to google TERFS and SWERFS to figure out what those were as well. :embarrassed:

That said, I feel a bit better about it because its something I have thought about over the years. I've always been aware that as a white, straight, cis, able-bodied female that I have advantages over women who don't fall into all those categories - and that makes me sad and frustrated. There are so many women in the world with intelligence, excellent work ethics, and the drive to be phenomenal human beings. Why should I get an extra boost just because I was born a certain way? It makes no sense to me at all.

Here's the article I used to try and understand if anyone else is interested (the definition is right at the start of the article):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens ... -care.html

I have trouble trying to figure out how I can be helpful in this type of discussion to be honest. I read through this article and felt torn. On one hand, I absolutely see the author's point that there are groups of women who have been marginalized in the overall discussion and that isn't good. All women should be represented fairly in this discussion. On the other hand, the article really left me confused I guess - I would like to help if I can, but I have no real idea on how to help and that makes me worried that I'll just add to the problem if I try. At the very least, I'd like to be able to understand so I can discuss this rationally and intelligently if the subject comes up in conversation. :lol:

As for appropriation, that's another subject that I try not to dive into often. I really have no idea where showing appreciation or respect for a culture ends and appropriation begins - as such, I try to tread carefully to avoid offending anyone. I didn't personally see anything really off in Taylor's video (at least nothing that was intentional), but that could very well be because I'm white and don't have a firm understanding of things.

[FundieFarmer]

I'm with you on pretty much everything you just said, VR. ShepherdOnTheRock, sockinshoe, I also appreciate the insight.

As far as appropriation...I think (and not to derail the conversation!) Rachel Dolezal is a good (extreme, but good) example of where that line becomes crossed. I think she truly cared about and was interested the Black culture, but took it too far in making it her own. I think when you start taking on someone's lifestyle and putting it on like a sweater, you've gone too far...and that's where I think Taylor hit a wall. Her team probably thought it would be funny, like a bunch of 12-year-old girls at a sleepover trying to be this/that/the other and people would laugh, but it doesn't go like that anymore. I really don't think it was intentional on her part, just like I really don't think Dolezal thought she was doing anything wrong (though we know both did!), but both are a good demonstration of how we really need to be careful that the things we do in jest can be very offensive to others, especially when we have different cultural experiences.

I agree that telling someone they're doing feminism wrong doesn't help the cause. I also think that just as people have specializations or particular areas of interest or talent at work, you also have that in your volunteer areas. Emma may have a lot to say about what she said in her speech, but be less familiar or interested in sex trafficking issues. That's not to say she doesn't care, but it may not be her calling. I think it's worth it to let people focus on the areas where they feel they're best used, rather than pulling a Katy Perry and pointlessly :stir-pot: .

Edited because riffles and also I'm a mess.

[FullmoonOverDuggardWaters]

Can you point out anything specific? I know she was criticized for having certain dance moves in one of her videos, but that didn't make much sense to me at the time - she wasn't attempting to appropriate anyone else's culture as much as she was telling people to just be yourself. Is there something more that I missed (I fully admit to probably missing a lot)?

She has unconsciously profited off of the genius and work of female musicians of color.

She only assumed Minaj was talking about her because on some level, even though she cannot yet articulate it, she is aware that she benefits personally and professionally every day from systems that assign innocence and power to women who look like her, at the expense of other women who do not!!!

Her girl-power! brand of generic feminism has unwittingly contributed to that oppression. Now, she could use her power to call attention to that inequity and actively work against it, but she doesn't because it makes her uncomfortable and is off-putting to her fans!!

And it is my opinion that Katy was not "being stupid". She had a most valid and appropriate point. Swift's video gleefully and publicly shames and intimidates another woman. These things need to be brought-up - and the only argument against that premise is that the fans do not care to hear it. Taylor should be called out on her skewed, pop-feminism.

If there are justifications for the VMA nominees in question, it's the demographic - preteens. MTV's audience has become younger and younger. At one time, it was appropriate for younger adults. Its slowly devolved into a much younger audience. Preteens are not into gyrating black asses, and the intense sexuality of "Anaconda".

ETA:

All of the nominated videos had women with impossible standards. Some were very lazy, poorly made. But on the other hand, Minaj's videos are just as misogynistic, IMO.

[ShepherdontheRock]

She has unconsciously profited off of the genius and work of female musicians of color.

She only assumed Minaj was talking about her because on some level, even though she cannot yet articulate it, she is aware that she benefits personally and professionally every day from systems that assign innocence and power to women who look like her, at the expense of other women who do not!!!

Her girl-power! brand of generic feminism has unwittingly contributed to that oppression. Now, she could use her power to call attention to that inequity and actively work against it, but she doesn't because it makes her uncomfortable and is off-putting to her fans!!

If there are justifications for the MTV VMA nominees in question, it is their demographic - preteens. MTV's audience has become younger and younger. At one time, it was appropriate for younger adults. Its slowly devolved into a much younger audience. Preteens are not into gyrating black asses, and the intense sexuality of "Anaconda".

And it is my opinion that Katy was not "being stupid". She had a most valid point.

What do you mean preteens aren't into gyrating black asses? When I was 11/12 we thought that shit was so edgy and therefore made us cool.

[FullmoonOverDuggardWaters]

Did Taylor Swift forget to read anything about intersectionality in Feminism for Dummies?

Or does she just not give a shit?

So. Just IMO :)

If one wants to understand Taylor Swifts "brand" of feminism - because that's what it is - a brand - she sells it - nay, capitalizes on it - please enjoy this article in full. A well-written and thoughtful piece, to say the least!

http://gawker.com/taylor-swift-is-not-your-friend-1717745581

Some of my favorite talking-points are:

...White, rich, powerful, thin, and outwardly clueless to the ways in which she manipulates? I often have conversations with my female friends about the two sides of feminism: the complimentary, bestie feminism—the kind that Swift is currently selling—and the cutthroat, realistic, we-exist-in-this-male-world-too feminism, the kind that expects women to act to standards that have already been set for us, and to do so by acting better and stronger and in alignment with each other. I think that neither are necessarily “wrong,†though I do often find myself on the latter side of the fence.

The reviews of the 1989 tour have been overwhelmingly positive in that cracked-smile way that makes it seem like every writer was forced to write with a gun to his or her head. They read like press releases at best and cult scripture at worse, and there is hardly a trace anywhere of any dissenting opinion, specifically anything that calls out Swift’s current co-opting of capital-f Feminism as a self-promotional tool. Is it possible that we’ve really become so dumb as to not know anymore what is simply just part of the pop mechanism and what is actually worthy of the hyperbolic pandering?

Lena Dunham said her experience on stage with Swift’s model friends made her feel chubby and short, and you have to wonder if someone in Dunham’s position feels that way, preteens and young women watching all this immaculate perfection probably feel even worse. A huge part of growing up female means battling with feelings of inadequacy, loneliness, and acceptance—of oneself and next to other women—and if the biggest model for that womanhood right now can’t even acknowledge intersectional feminism without getting aggressive and barbed, then is she really working for empowerment of women? Or is her priority empowering Taylor Swift?

[FullmoonOverDuggardWaters]

What do you mean preteens aren't into gyrating black asses? When I was 11/12 we thought that shit was so edgy and therefore made us cool.

Haha! :D Understand, I am not talking about when you were 11. The asses in this Anaconda video are scary - at least Nicki's is - pumped up like a giant pillow.

The pre-teen-pop demographic is most definitely scared of Nicki, the "angry black woman", and her enlarged, gyrating ass - compared to "cute white geek" Taylor Swift. And the "white-media" Nicki mentions in her rants do nothing to help change that perception.

This is a picture Entertainment Weekly posted, in their article, claiming Nicki took a "jab" at Taylor.

Why dont they reverse the image instead of perpetuating the "angry black woman" stereo-type?!

[ShepherdontheRock]

Haha! :D Understand, I am not talking about when you were 11. The asses in this Anaconda video are scary - at least Nicki's is - pumped up like a giant pillow.

The pre-teen-pop demographic is most definitely scared of Nicki, the "angry black woman", and her enlarged, gyrating ass - compared to "cute white geek" Taylor Swift. And the "white-media" Nicki mentions in her rants do nothing to help change that perception.

This is a picture Entertainment Weekly posted, in their article, claiming Nicki took a "jab" at Taylor.

Why dont they reverse the image instead of perpetuating the "angry black woman" stereo-type?!

Um, okay. Well, you were basically saying that preteens not into gyrating black asses. And I was not a preteen THAT long ago. And if you've been on social media at all, guess who a lot of Nicki's fans are? PRETEENS/TEENAGERS! As are Taylor Swifts!

Or you know what? Maybe preteens are into intense sexuality? If it's a MALE rapper talking in metaphors about getting his dick sucked/having sex with a stripper? But letting him "eat it with his grills" or "toss my salad like his name Romaine" is gross?

Hmmmm. Okay.

ETA- I highly doubt preteens have gotten that much more prudish since I was one.

[VelociRapture]

She has unconsciously profited off of the genius and work of female musicians of color.

She only assumed Minaj was talking about her because on some level, even though she cannot yet articulate it, she is aware that she benefits personally and professionally every day from systems that assign innocence and power to women who look like her, at the expense of other women who do not!!!

Her girl-power! brand of generic feminism has unwittingly contributed to that oppression. Now, she could use her power to call attention to that inequity and actively work against it, but she doesn't because it makes her uncomfortable and is off-putting to her fans!!

And it is my opinion that Katy was not "being stupid". She had a most valid and appropriate point. Swift's video gleefully and publicly shames and intimidates another woman. These things need to be brought-up - and the only argument against that premise is that the fans do not care to hear it. Taylor should be called out on her skewed, pop-feminism.

If there are justifications for the VMA nominees in question, it's the demographic - preteens. MTV's audience has become younger and younger. At one time, it was appropriate for younger adults. Its slowly devolved into a much younger audience. Preteens are not into gyrating black asses, and the intense sexuality of "Anaconda".

ETA:

All of the nominated videos had women with impossible standards. Some were very lazy, poorly made. But on the other hand, Minaj's videos are just as misogynistic, IMO.

Ok. . . but how, specifically, has Taylor profited in that manner? I'm not attempting to be dense or start an argument or anything. I'm seriously trying to understand because I have no personal experience with this sort of stuff. Was it just the video for "Shake It Off" or are there other things as well?

I can understand your point regarding her particular brand of Feminism. It is a problem, but she probably speaks about it because it's what she knows best - other people, such as Nicki Minaj, have more experience with other forms of feminism and are better equipped at this time to speak on it. I think Taylor definitely misspoke in this situation and I was glad to see that she apologized to Nicki for it - both publicly and privately. Hopefully she comes away from this with a better understanding of what Nicki was actually addressing and doesn't jump to conclusions so quickly next time.

And yeah, I agree with ShepherdontheRock - she's only a few years younger than me and I can tell you flat out that preteens a decade ago were into all sorts of stuff - including, to use your words, "gyrating black asses." That video would have been all anyone would have talked about in Middle School or High School.

[halcionne]

See, I honestly don't think Taylor was lying in her apology when she said she misunderstood and then misspoke. I think she read the initial tweet and just reacted - and to be honest, I might have done the same in her position because Nicki's tweet (just in my personal opinion) did seem to be pointed mostly at Taylor (unless there is another artist nominated that had a ton of supermodels in their video with them).

Nicki might have been able to word it better - maybe make it clearer that she was speaking about MTV and not targeting the nominated artists (because they probably have no say in who gets nominated). Taylor probably should have just bit her tongue - rather than speaking out in the moment and causing a mess. Taylor realized that she misspoke though and she apologized because she felt like she should. Nicki accepted. To me, that shows maturity on both their parts.

I am curious what you guys think though. I want to have a better understanding and I'm hoping other people's opinions can help (People magazines comment section is the worst place to try and find that; FJ is much more enlightening!) -

So do you think Nicki was speaking to MTV specifically or do you think she was more frustrated by the music industry in general? I'm guessing its a combination of the two because Hollywood in general has a pretty shitty track record when it comes to honoring artists that aren't white. I'm sure Nicki put in a lot of work and effort to make that video; considering it was one of the most popular videos in the past year it does seem a bit odd that they didn't nominated her. . . but I don't know how they pick and choose either. I think this particular incident confuses me a bit because there are black artists who have been nominated frequently (and won) for this specific award; including Kendrick Lamar and Beyonce who are both nominated this year. Why pick this specific award to vent her frustration on? :think:

I haven't weighed in on this topic because I'm not familiar enough with Taylor's work or how social media works to feel confident talking about it, but I noticed your bolded and thought I would link some of the comments from ONTD, if you or anyone is interested, because they touched on some interesting points that haven't come up here. I love ONTD because it has a lot more women, people of color, and LGBT members than your average site and some of them are really on top of feminist/womanist issues (and other issues that aren't relevant to this thread). A few people at ONTD thought Nicki was shading Miley Cyrus, not Taylor Swift, because Anaconda beat some Wrecking Ball records and Wrecking Ball got nommed for VOTY last year. In any case, here is the link: Nicki Minaj about to show Taylor Swift some real Bad Blood™ and another link that puts the focus back where Nicki probably intended it: Talib Kweli weighs in on Nicki/Taylor

[FullmoonOverDuggardWaters]

I will try to be more detailed. Excuse the delay in my response - I was lazy - and this does require some effort and articulation on my part. Furthermore, excuse my tone - it may seem I'm over-analyzing here, however I'm just very into sociology.

Can you point out anything specific? I know she was criticized for having certain dance moves in one of her videos, but that didn't make much sense to me at the time - she wasn't attempting to appropriate anyone else's culture as much as she was telling people to just be yourself. Is there something more that I missed (I fully admit to probably missing a lot)?

Yes. She was TOTALLY appropriating another culture! "Shake It Off" is the perfect example. Its appropriated, then commodified. And dehumanizing black dancers in a seemingly silly pop video - that is racism – the production of stereotypes, values and behaviors that feed into a system of institutional discrimination.

Failing to understand how and why cultural appropriation and stereotypes are damaging, is an outcome of White privilege. All white people have white-privilege.

Sure, her intended message was 'be yourself!' But the fact that she did not set out to be “intentionally racist†is beside the point. Racism does not require your intent, as racial bias often goes unexamined. Swift added her name to an ever-growing list of rich white women in pop-music who use the exploitation of women of colour to make “feminist†statements.

So, I would argue that her pop video is not innocuous. Her "fun", "satire", is no excuse for whitewashing of racism. It is informed by, and sustains, racial hierarchies - hierarchies that position white people as morally, physically and socially superior to others! By presenting women of color as little more than backdrop sex dolls, many white artists remain at the center of culture whilst their white privilege protects 'em from the racism, hyper-sexism, social stigma, and additional violence that women of color live with.

Ok. . . but how, specifically, has Taylor profited in that manner? I'm not attempting to be dense or start an argument or anything. I'm seriously trying to understand because I have no personal experience with this sort of stuff. Was it just the video for "Shake It Off" or are there other things as well?

Swift is able to co-opt certain aspects of black culture, without any of the said consequences - she uses this for massive commercial success!! As does Miley Cyrus with her twerking, and Gwen Stephani does it with Asian culture.

Granted, its subtle - you didnt even notice. Maybe now she will see the bigger picture. Even then, she will try to profit from it. Its convenient that she and other white women are at the center of both pop-culture and the feminist movement. She sees monumental profits from white-feminism, but without attention to racial justice, white-feminism makes an easy partnership with white-supremacy.

And yeah, I agree with ShepherdontheRock - she's only a few years younger than me and I can tell you flat out that preteens a decade ago were into all sorts of stuff - including, to use your words, "gyrating black asses." That video would have been all anyone would have talked about in Middle School or High School.

Regardless, there exists a racialised fear of black-female hyper-sexuality. And this is why preteen girls are more comfortable with Swift, as are their parents. Swifts' rhythm-less dance moves distance her from the hyper-sexualized racial body in a way that positions her as somehow "safe", morally.

Haha. In summary, maybe Kanye was right...? :shrug:

Fin!!

[VelociRapture]

I will try to be more detailed. Excuse the delay in my response - I was lazy - and this does require some effort and articulation on my part. Furthermore, excuse my tone - it may seem I'm over-analyzing here, however I'm just very into sociology.

Yes. She was TOTALLY appropriating another culture! "Shake It Off" is the perfect example. Its appropriated, then commodified. And dehumanizing black dancers in a seemingly silly pop video - that is racism – the production of stereotypes, values and behaviors that feed into a system of institutional discrimination.

Failing to understand how and why cultural appropriation and stereotypes are damaging, is an outcome of White privilege. All white people have white-privilege.

Sure, her intended message was 'be yourself!' But the fact that she did not set out to be “intentionally racist†is beside the point. Racism does not require your intent, as racial bias often goes unexamined. Swift added her name to an ever-growing list of rich white women in pop-music who use the exploitation of women of colour to make “feminist†statements.

So, I would argue that her pop video is not innocuous. Her "fun", "satire", is no excuse for whitewashing of racism. It is informed by, and sustains, racial hierarchies - hierarchies that position white people as morally, physically and socially superior to others! By presenting women of color as little more than backdrop sex dolls, many white artists remain at the center of culture whilst their white privilege protects 'em from the racism, hyper-sexism, social stigma, and additional violence that women of color live with.

Swift is able to co-opt certain aspects of black culture, without any of the said consequences - she uses this for massive commercial success!! As does Miley Cyrus with her twerking, and Gwen Stephani does it with Asian culture.

Granted, its subtle - you didnt even notice. Maybe now she will see the bigger picture. Even then, she will try to profit from it. Its convenient that she and other white women are at the center of both pop-culture and the feminist movement. She sees monumental profits from white-feminism, but without attention to racial justice, white-feminism makes an easy partnership with white-supremacy.

Regardless, there exists a racialised fear of black-female hyper-sexuality. And this is why preteen girls are more comfortable with Swift, as are their parents. Swifts' rhythm-less dance moves distance her from the hyper-sexualized racial body in a way that positions her as somehow "safe", morally.

Haha. In summary, maybe Kanye was right...? :shrug:

Fin!!

When it comes to preteens and what artist they like, you can't really generalize. A lot of preteens and teens like Taylor. A lot of them like Nicki too. Parents may feel Taylor is a safer influence, but that isn't necessarily the case for their kids.

I think I have trouble with her Shake It Off video because she isn't just using dance moves from black culture or dancers who are black that act as "backdrops." Yes, it is part of the video, but she has a bunch of other scenes that don't include different styles of dance and dancers of various ethnicities. Maybe I'm having trouble fully grasping the racist aspects because of that? I do definitely see how it could be racist though - and the important thing is there are people who were offended by it. The fact that I (and other people like me) may not understand completely isn't as important as the fact that people felt offended by it.

That said I do think it's important to keep in mind that her motivations likely weren't out of anything mean or evil. It doesn't excuse the fact that it was racist and offensive to people, but I do think motivation should be kept in mind - if only because it can be a good way to try and teach people or help them understand better.

(And thanks for trying to explain further! I do appreciate the effort!)

[FullmoonOverDuggardWaters]

When it comes to preteens and what artist they like, you can't really generalize. A lot of preteens and teens like Taylor. A lot of them like Nicki too. Parents may feel Taylor is a safer influence, but that isn't necessarily the case for their kids.

Regardless - I will say it again- there exists a racialised fear of black-female hyper-sexuality. Hence, some folk, young and old, are scared of Minaj; that is, even without the inordinately-sized gyrating ass. And I do not mean to be generalizing - I speak of their comparative demographics. Swift has a far, far greater reach, and significantly younger demographic. She has tapped a massive market Minaj will never touch. Mind you, I only ever mentioned preteens. Bringing teenagers into the matter dilutes my point. Beside, whatever argument is here, whichever artist teens like, whether it be both, or just one, its is very much a side dish to the topic at hand. That topic is white-privilege.

I think I have trouble with her Shake It Off video because she isn't just using dance moves from black culture or dancers who are black that act as "backdrops." Yes, it is part of the video, but she has a bunch of other scenes that don't include different styles of dance and dancers of various ethnicities. Maybe I'm having trouble fully grasping the racist aspects because of that? I do definitely see how it could be racist though - and the important thing is there are people who were offended by it. The fact that I (and other people like me) may not understand completely isn't as important as the fact that people felt offended by it.

Youre right. No, she does not only target women of color. She traffics in white stereotypes as well, separating and positioning herself superior. All the while she is safe, hiding behind "satire". Swift is constantly slut-shaming other women in lyrics, by playing "the other girl", in "jeans and sneakers", placing herself on a moral pedestal.

Thank-you for sharing that. If you really do fail to understand, or "grasp the racial aspect", it is because white privilege is an asset about which you were meant to remain oblivious. So, on the contrary, your not understanding completely IS more important than those offended!! Recognizing this white privilege is part of the fight against racism. When you understand your white privilege, you will be better equipped to see and understand systemic discrimination and inequality.

That said I do think it's important to keep in mind that her motivations likely weren't out of anything mean or evil. It doesn't excuse the fact that it was racist and offensive to people, but I do think motivation should be kept in mind - if only because it can be a good way to try and teach people or help them understand better.

(And thanks for trying to explain further! I do appreciate the effort!)

I feel as though motivation should be paid no mind to. But Swift is not racist and surely, a nice person. But Swift profits greatly - nay, insanely - from white feminism! On her last tour alone, she made over $1Million per night, with 65 dates! And her white feminism is full-throttle, genius marketing. But its harmful. Racism isn't about attitude, its about power! She has major, paramount power! And she has positioned herself publicly as a feminist. But - again- white feminism, without attention to racial justice, makes an easy partnership with White supremacy.

I do have faith in Swift. Whitey feminism is largely resistant to racial issues and maybe she will change that! Instead of bringing out all her beautiful, tall white model friends onto the stage, shell stray toward a more appropriate message. The again... this is also about business.

Of course, VelociRapture, I say all of this with the most respectable tone, and I very much appreciate your view on the matter!

Ugh... Now I have to go to work...

[VelociRapture]

Regardless - I will say it again- there exists a racialised fear of black-female hyper-sexuality. Hence, some folk, young and old, are scared of Minaj; that is, even without the inordinately-sized gyrating ass. And I do not mean to be generalizing - I speak of their comparative demographics. Swift has a far, far greater reach, and significantly younger demographic. She has tapped a massive market Minaj will never touch. Mind you, I only ever mentioned preteens. Bringing teenagers into the matter dilutes my point. Beside, whatever argument is here, whichever artist teens like, whether it be both, or just one, its is very much a side dish to the topic at hand. That topic is white-privilege.

Youre right. No, she does not only target women of color. She traffics in white stereotypes as well, separating and positioning herself superior. All the while she is safe, hiding behind "satire". Swift is constantly slut-shaming other women in lyrics, by playing "the other girl", in "jeans and sneakers", placing herself on a moral pedestal.

Thank-you for sharing that. If you really do fail to understand, or "grasp the racial aspect", it is because white privilege is an asset about which you were meant to remain oblivious. So, on the contrary, your not understanding completely IS more important than those offended!! Recognizing this white privilege is part of the fight against racism. When you understand your white privilege, you will be better equipped to see and understand systemic discrimination and inequality.

I feel as though motivation should be paid no mind to. But Swift is not racist and surely, a nice person. But Swift profits greatly - nay, insanely - from white feminism! On her last tour alone, she made over $1Million per night, with 65 dates! And her white feminism is full-throttle, genius marketing. But its harmful. Racism isn't about attitude, its about power! She has major, paramount power! And she has positioned herself publicly as a feminist. But - again- white feminism, without attention to racial justice, makes an easy partnership with White supremacy.

I do have faith in Swift. Whitey feminism is largely resistant to racial issues and maybe she will change that! Instead of bringing out all her beautiful, tall white model friends onto the stage, shell stray toward a more appropriate message. The again... this is also about business.

Of course, VelociRapture, I say all of this with the most respectable tone, and I very much appreciate your view on the matter!

Ugh... Now I have to go to work...

:lol: Work is the worst!

Again, thank you for taking the time to try and explain these things to me. I really do appreciate all the explaining you and the other posters have done to help me understand.

I am aware that I am privileged simply due to luck and genetics - understanding how that affects my worldview and how the world impacts me can be difficult at times, mainly because (as you pointed out) I'm not supposed to realize that I'm privileged. There are times when a situation is just so blatantly racist that it's easy to identify (Guiliana Rancic's comment about Zendaya's hair comes to mind) - something like Swift's video is much less obvious though, so its a great deal harder for me to understand.

About the motivation part - I meant that we could use the motivation behind the decisions that Taylor (and other celebrities) makes as a way to try and educate people about how you can act in a racist manner without realizing it at the time. That's why I think motivation shouldn't be disregarded completely - it can be used as a teachable moment in order to educate people about various forms that racism can take and how racism isn't always obvious to everyone. Understanding that can lead to greater tolerance and acceptance of differences.

And I agree. Acknowledging that I'm pretty oblivious is a good thing and it is important for me to understand that and to do my best to keep an open-mind when people discuss these things. I feel like acknowledging that I have an unfair advantage over others is really the only way I'll actually be able to better understand the issues people of other races face.

And yes, I agree that there are people who fear what Nicki stands for. Personally, I've never been fully at ease with sexually explicit content. Doesn't matter if the person is black, white, Asian, Latino, extra-terrestrial, or anything else you can think of - if there's a ton of sexually explicit words or images involved I don't feel too comfortable. I have gotten better about it in recent years, but I'm still working on it and working on being comfortable with my own sexual nature as well.

Thinking about this specific incident, I'm glad that Nicki is making videos that showcase her sexuality in a way that makes her feel comfortable and powerful. Its important that there are women of all races and body types discussing the fact that its perfectly normal to have sexual urges and to take pride in owning your sexuality - Nicki could very well be that person for a lot of women. Shaming her for doing so is just wrong, especially if another celebrity who has a more "ideal" look is given a pass for doing something similar - and I think, at the very basics, that's probably what Nicki was actually saying at the start of all this.

[SportsgalAnnie]

At my job, I have learned a lot about celebs.

Taylor is a fame and money hungry bitch who will cut down anyone who doesn't agree with her. She puts herself on a pedestal and plays the victim to gain empathy and cant sing without auto tune. She sold out for the love of money

[halcionne]

Thinking about this specific incident, I'm glad that Nicki is making videos that showcase her sexuality in a way that makes her feel comfortable and powerful. Its important that there are women of all races and body types discussing the fact that its perfectly normal to have sexual urges and to take pride in owning your sexuality - Nicki could very well be that person for a lot of women. Shaming her for doing so is just wrong, especially if another celebrity who has a more "ideal" look is given a pass for doing something similar - and I think, at the very basics, that's probably what Nicki was actually saying at the start of all this.

I liked Fullmoon's comment a lot, but snipped it for the sake of brevity. And now I'm making your post an opportunity to discuss my favorite Nicki Minaj video (besides Feeling Myself, which is hard to find online found it but the picture quality isn't good). Anyway Throw Sum Mo. The first half is so great, imo, because Nicki and Slim Jimmy both recognize the value of Nicki's product? service? merchandise? and negotiate accordingly. The second half of the song goes downhill, lyrics-wise, into the usual boring, offensive sexism, imo again. But the dancers are so beautiful and confident I watch the whole thing. Content warning for lots of skin and some female self-groping.

[bBvideo 560,340:3m95tei7]

[/bBvideo]

Feeling Myself shows less skin and a nice female friendship, but still has racy lyrics and dancing. I have a problem with the second half of the second verse, but I may be missing something from an intersectional perspective. I'm working on intersectionality in feminism, but I'm still a beginner. Beyonce's album last year had some interesting examples of different feminist triumphs for women of color.

[bBvideo 560,340:3m95tei7]https://youtu.be/Ic54736Ivus[/bBvideo]

I started to put even more words and videos here, but I was digressing too much. :D