Orthodox Israeli Woman Assaulted for being "Immodest"

[Cleopatra7]

These sorts of incidents seem to be a depressingly commonplace event in Israel, where the haredi feel empowered to attack women, even fellow Orthodox, who don't meet their crazy dress standards.

http://blogs.forward.com/sisterhood-blo ... 2014-04-01

(link not broken because the Forward is a secular Jewish site)

[Arete]

This happened in the same city that a group of men thought it was acceptable to heckle an 8 yr old modern Orthodox girl on her way to school. She was sleeveless so this made it acceptable to scream "Slut!" at her. I believe that family decided to move.

They are escalating. Their birthdate makes their eventual control of that city a given. Women are regularly harassed in the Haredi sector if their modesty does not conform. Bad situation, really bad.

[stonefruit]

This happened in the same city that a group of men thought it was acceptable to heckle an 8 yr old modern Orthodox girl on her way to school. She was sleeveless so this made it acceptable to scream "Slut!" at her. I believe that family decided to move.

No no, it's actually much worse than that: even though she was wearing long skirts and long-sleeved shirts, she was spat and yelled at! Not that it would have been okay if she were wearing sleeveless shirts, or even a bikini top for heaven's sake; just, she met their dress-code and they still went bananas harassing her.

[Arete]

No no, it's actually much worse than that: even though she was wearing long skirts and long-sleeved shirts, she was spat and yelled at! Not that it would have been okay if she were wearing sleeveless shirts, or even a bikini top for heaven's sake; just, she met their dress-code and they still went bananas harassing her.

Oh man.... Thanks for correcting me on that. I had been under the impression that she did not have sleeves and they went apeshit. There is something really wrong when grown assed men can call an 8 yr old a slut, and what is really wrong is not the 8 yr old.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

So what was this woman's supposed modesty violation? There has to be something - not that it has to be REASONABLE, but there's always something that the harassers complain about. She had a head covering on, even (that this guy oh so concerned with "modesty" TORE OFF, way to go, you perv!!). Perhaps he thought her skirt was too short, or the wrong color, or she had a few stray hairs under the wig, or had no socks on, or what? Tights too thin? No seam?

Article didn't say, just has me curious.

Dude needs to AVERT his eyes and stop gawking at women if he's so damn pious. Never mind pulling off their head coverings to EXPOSE their HAIR which he is not allowed to be looking at, per his own rules.

[Toothfairy]

I always wonder wtf is wrong with these people.

[Arete]

I always wonder wtf is wrong with these people.

Same thing that is wrong with the Christian and Islamic fundies, sexual repression coupled with toxic entitlement. :evil-eye:

[Lillybee]

Women are being harassed in parts of Brooklyn where the Hasidic Jews are in the majority. They will yell and scream at women who may or may not be Jewish for wearing what they consider wearing immodest dress by their standards.

[Aurora rising]

Same thing that is wrong with the Christian and Islamic fundies, sexual repression coupled with toxic entitlement. :evil-eye:

But with KIDS??? This is what I don´t get, how can a child be "sexy" to a normal grown-up?

I don´t know the thora or bible, but in the koran it says that men have to advert their eyes if tempted. Problem solved. Normally. :angry-banghead:

[Handmaiden of Dog]

Women are being harassed in parts of Brooklyn where the Hasidic Jews are in the majority. They will yell and scream at women who may or may not be Jewish for wearing what they consider wearing immodest dress by their standards.

Gah. This makes me wish I lived near New York so that I could get up a Women in Shorts parade or something. Hard to believe that American women are not allowed to walk the streets of New York in normal clothes. The Cultural Melting Pot thing only works if the cultures melt and blend a little.

[Arete]

Gah. This makes me wish I lived near New York so that I could get up a Women in Shorts parade or something. Hard to believe that American women are not allowed to walk the streets of New York in normal clothes. The Cultural Melting Pot thing only works if the cultures melt and blend a little.

They keep the modesty signs in Yiddish and do not harass women who are obviously not Orthodox Jews, which is why their behavior in NYC neighborhoods flies under the radar. There, it is about policing and harassing the women of the ultra orthodox community.

I can walk around a Hasidic neighborhood in New York in my shorts, nothing is going to happen. If I was a Hasidic mother? I would be expect to abide by any rules on a sign in Yiddish, like use this part of the sidewalk, etc. It is an outrage that some women in the same city have fewer freedoms than others.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I can walk around a Hasidic neighborhood in New York in my shorts, nothing is going to happen. If I was a Hasidic mother? I would be expect to abide by any rules on a sign in Yiddish, like use this part of the sidewalk, etc. It is an outrage that some women in the same city have fewer freedoms than others.

The New York situation just makes the justification rhetoric used to police the in-community women all the more WTF. I mean, it's one thing if you live in a segregated community, where if you can get all of "your" community women to abide by a certain dress custom, you can completely avoid seeing female elbows or non-stocking-encased mid-calves. So their reason of "we don't want to be distracted by seeing those body parts" makes some shred of... I won't say "sense," but it's at least theoretically possibly achievable.

But in NYC, with all the non-Jewish women around who aren't bound by those rules, with plenty of scantily-clad people on the streets (even in "heavily Hasidic" areas, as long as you're still in the city itself and not New Square or similar) and on the subway, you can have every Orthodox woman (heck, even every JEWISH woman) 100% burka'ed up, and still you are going to be seeing heathen hipster thigh. So they might as well notch it back a bit.

Some people if asked about that will say, well, they don't consider any non-Jewish people remotely "in the market" so it doesn't matter how much they might "slut it up" but if this is supposedly about "ZOMG I saw a female calf in some tights less than 90 denier, my pants are too tight now..." then I'm not sure how that is supposed to work. So maybe settling back to the "skirts covering the knee" traditional basic rules (for those communities) is not the end of the world already.

But everyone wants to out-pious everyone else with the clothes policing. Heck on the men's side too oh it's scandalous among some if you wear a white shirt with a subtle PATTERN on it, never mind a blue button-down, oh, you're about ready to become delinquent any moment now.

The other thing is trying to make sure you're not fashionable (because that's worldly) so there are fashions among the unfashionable. Remember the dust-up about plastic glasses recently. Honestly, in the search for the perfect sort of "out of fashion nerdiness" it reminds me of nothing so much as... hipsters. :D

[sparkles]

At this point, I really do believe that the greatest threat to Israel comes from within. That the government allows these leeches to live outside the common law is outrageous. Eventually, their numbers will overwhelm the system and there will be few non-Orthodox left to support them that I can see the entire structure of the country collapsing.

The Sparklet lives in Brooklyn on the border of Williamsburg and while she's never been harassed, she does get the hairy eyeball stare quite frequently. I think in many areas of Brooklyn the hipsters and the Orthodox communities have learned to co-exist somewhat. If it's not exactly friendly at least they tolerate each other. The hostility really originates with the Orthodox though; the hipsters couldn't care less unless the other side makes the first move.

[Cleopatra7]

Oh man.... Thanks for correcting me on that. I had been under the impression that she did not have sleeves and they went apeshit. There is something really wrong when grown assed men can call an 8 yr old a slut, and what is really wrong is not the 8 yr old.

Haredi publications will not even print pictures of baby girls or mothers, because that would be "immodest." When Osama bin Laden was killed a couple years ago, a Haredi newspaper photoshopped Hillary Clinton out of the photo of Obama's war room for fear the delicate yeshiva bochurim would go crazy with lust.

[Jane_Goth]

I always wonder wtf is wrong with these people.

Hatred of women or/and the desire to control them.

[2xx1xy1JD]

No no, it's actually much worse than that: even though she was wearing long skirts and long-sleeved shirts, she was spat and yelled at! Not that it would have been okay if she were wearing sleeveless shirts, or even a bikini top for heaven's sake; just, she met their dress-code and they still went bananas harassing her.

In some ways, it's really a form of gender terrorism - violence intended to cause fear in the targeted group, in order to achieve religious and political goals.

I suspect that this woman was perfectly covered, but simply looked Modern Orthodox instead of Haredi.

When it comes to gender issues, we are seeing the conflict between the Modern Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox, particularly in Israel, as being on the front line. Secular Israelis often don't live in the same areas, and they don't pose an ideological threat (since they make no claims to being modest or religious).

The biggest turf war is in Bet Shemesh. Bet Shemesh Alef is more Modern Orthodox, while Bet Shemesh Bet has "the crazy Haredim" (in the words of a friend who lives there). A Modern Orthodox woman in the Haredi area is the equivalent of wearing a Crips bandana in the middle of the Bloods turf, and these guys acted just like thugs in a street gang.

Adding to that lawless image, you've got to keep in mind the insane municipal election. The court overturned the first election results because of voter fraud, and the second election was held just 2 weeks before this attack. The election was VERY close, and the Haredim treated it like a holy war.

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Poli ... ote-345064

Haredi MK Moshe Gafni described the municipal elections last week as “a war of religion,†and numerous rabbis, including the most senior leaders of the haredi world, instructed members of the community to vote in order to “sanctify God’s name.â€

So no, this wasn't an isolated freak of a guy who couldn't control himself if he saw a girl or woman without thick enough stockings. This was a community where this guy would have been surrounded by people who literally believe that they are at war and under attack by Modern Orthodox Jews, and that they need to fight for control of the city.

[docmom]

In some ways, it's really a form of gender terrorism - violence intended to cause fear in the targeted group, in order to achieve religious and political goals.

I completely agree. Why is it OK to terrorize women in the name of religion when it's obviously considered wrong to terrorize a racial or ethnic group under any circumstances?

[cindyluvs24]

Just wondering: Would she have physically fought back against, say, a garden-variety mugger? I realize she was protecting her toddler but I am always surprised when I Iread about these incidents that the women do not strike back in defense.

Note: not blaming the victim just wondering if Orthodox women are not raised to be physically assertive.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Just wondering: Would she have physically fought back against, say, a garden-variety mugger? I realize she was protecting her toddler but I am always surprised when I Iread about these incidents that the women do not strike back in defense.

Note: not blaming the victim just wondering if Orthodox women are not raised to be physically assertive.

She tried to get away from him, she screamed and she was on the phone to the police when he suddenly attacked her. She took her daughter and ran. Nobody was helping her. She was terrified. Under the circumstances, her reaction was totally understandable, and hardly passive.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newslet ... p?id=16473

[canela]

Maybe I'm over-thinking this. I know that there are a hell of a lot of politics likely involved in this hideous incident. Politics I surely can't begin to understand, because I don't know the history of the struggles between the Haredi, Modern Orthodox, secular, Non-Jewish communities, etc. I think that it is clear that (as in so many cultures) women's bodies have become a political tool used by men to "Out-holy" each other. This incident could happen in ANY strict community where things have been allowed to get so out of hand. This perpetrator was undoubtedly taught that he is beyond reproach because he is devout, keeps his mind "where it belongs," and follows the fanatical rules of his community. He was probably also taught that women's bodies are sacred vessels to be used by holy men for procreation. He mightn't have been taught that women are complex human beings with brains, souls, and feelings. So one day, he sees a pretty young woman and feels an attraction. Instead of momentarily appreciating her loveliness, his mind snaps back into what he's been taught. He thinks that since his lusty feelings aren't toward his approved outlet (possibly a wife he has reduced to a caricature), they MUST be her fault. She tempted him, so she must be evil.

Please understand that I am not accusing all devout people of any faith of such behavior. I just think that some groups lead their members into the tunnel of crazy, and when they come out the other side, they are so confused, this type of behavior makes sense to them. Sickening, really.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Maybe I'm over-thinking this. I know that there are a hell of a lot of politics likely involved in this hideous incident. Politics I surely can't begin to understand, because I don't know the history of the struggles between the Haredi, Modern Orthodox, secular, Non-Jewish communities, etc. I think that it is clear that (as in so many cultures) women's bodies have become a political tool used by men to "Out-holy" each other. This incident could happen in ANY strict community where things have been allowed to get so out of hand. This perpetrator was undoubtedly taught that he is beyond reproach because he is devout, keeps his mind "where it belongs," and follows the fanatical rules of his community. He was probably also taught that women's bodies are sacred vessels to be used by holy men for procreation. He mightn't have been taught that women are complex human beings with brains, souls, and feelings. So one day, he sees a pretty young woman and feels an attraction. Instead of momentarily appreciating her loveliness, his mind snaps back into what he's been taught. He thinks that since his lusty feelings aren't toward his approved outlet (possibly a wife he has reduced to a caricature), they MUST be her fault. She tempted him, so she must be evil.

Please understand that I am not accusing all devout people of any faith of such behavior. I just think that some groups lead their members into the tunnel of crazy, and when they come out the other side, they are so confused, this type of behavior makes sense to them. Sickening, really.

The worst teachings, IMHO, are the ones that don't focus on seeing women as actual human beings, but which focus on them as potential sources of temptation to sin. If you portray mere thoughts or arousal as sin and focus on the importance of being pure from such sin, then you'll have a whole lot of young men with normal hormones who find it almost impossible to avoid any sexual thought and who feel like they are in constant danger of sinning. Women then get blamed for causing the men to sin.

Combine that with a community with a persecution complex, where the leaders are portraying themselves are being part of a holy war, and where they constantly scream that they and their way of life are under attack. The victim wasn't seen as a young woman with a small child. She was seen as The Enemy.

[salex]

In some ways, it's really a form of gender terrorism - violence intended to cause fear in the targeted group, in order to achieve religious and political goals.

I suspect that this woman was perfectly covered, but simply looked Modern Orthodox instead of Haredi.

When it comes to gender issues, we are seeing the conflict between the Modern Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox, particularly in Israel, as being on the front line. Secular Israelis often don't live in the same areas, and they don't pose an ideological threat (since they make no claims to being modest or religious).

The biggest turf war is in Bet Shemesh. Bet Shemesh Alef is more Modern Orthodox, while Bet Shemesh Bet has "the crazy Haredim" (in the words of a friend who lives there). A Modern Orthodox woman in the Haredi area is the equivalent of wearing a Crips bandana in the middle of the Bloods turf, and these guys acted just like thugs in a street gang.

Adding to that lawless image, you've got to keep in mind the insane municipal election. The court overturned the first election results because of voter fraud, and the second election was held just 2 weeks before this attack. The election was VERY close, and the Haredim treated it like a holy war.

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Poli ... ote-345064

So no, this wasn't an isolated freak of a guy who couldn't control himself if he saw a girl or woman without thick enough stockings. This was a community where this guy would have been surrounded by people who literally believe that they are at war and under attack by Modern Orthodox Jews, and that they need to fight for control of the city.

This is why all the inane blather about a "war on christmas/easter/christians/marriage" whatever that the U.S. Christians use is not just harmless drivel. It is setting people up to take action if they can't win with votes. There were more than a few people who said of the guy who murdered Dr. Tiller that "well, it was wrong 'BUT" it got more done than we had politically in 30 years. These are people who aren't even among the weekly protester nutjobs, who are upper middle class fundie lights and they always keep going back to "it was wrong" at least around me... The man who shot Dr. Tiller was a relatively easy Pawn, (he had a history of religious weirdness and of being a "mad bomber" type) but he certainly isn't alone, and the more people hear that there is a culture war and the lives of their children and grandchildren are at stake, the more likely it is to become a real war. And, at least our local Christian Radio gives that message in probably half their broadcasts.

[Arete]

Isn't it amazing that all the "war" talk to preserve the various interpretations of the true expression of a particular religious culture centers around the behavior of women?

[Cleopatra7]

A perspective from an American Modern Orthodox rabbi/blogger on the incident:

haemtza.blogspot.com/2014/04/we-are-healthy-men.html#disqus_thread

There are a lot of comments, some in Hebrew, but they're worth reading. As with Christian fundies, there are commenters accusing the blogger of being anti-haredi for daring to criticizing these "modesty squads."

[Arete]

A perspective from an American Modern Orthodox rabbi/blogger on the incident:

haemtza.blogspot.com/2014/04/we-are-healthy-men.html#disqus_thread

There are a lot of comments, some in Hebrew, but they're worth reading. As with Christian fundies, there are commenters accusing the blogger of being anti-haredi for daring to criticizing these "modesty squads."

From one of the comments on that blog:

The extremes they go to in order to avoid being sexually aroused (and thus sinning) has caused them to put up many fences. The result of that is that even the most normal interaction between a man and a woman causes sexual stirrings in the minds of their men.

Exactly. They are so afraid of the sin of appreciating a pretty woman that some of them are now afraid of looking at little girls (And I am referring to all types of Abrahamic religious fanatics, not just haredi Jews). You guard against the opposite sex so much they are bound to become "forbidden fruit". And that is ALL they become. Forget personhood.

Of course the defense in the comments when used is the No True Scotsman fallacy. "He is mentally ill...." Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but this incident is not a one off in that neighborhood, or even a two off. The fact he was yelling that the woman "weakens" men tells me he has heard this early and often in his life. He can be both mentally ill and a haredi Jew who has been taught that looking at a woman in the street could cause a great sin. A lot of others think the same as him, they are just not going to become violent. That doesn't mean the attitude is not dangerous in other ways.