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Has anyone from ATI Law School ever got a real Legal Career?


Daenerys
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I was wondering since a blogger I follow, Mikaela at One Bright Corner, is engaged to a graduate of Gothard's Correspondence Law School called Joel Fisher. He did some sort of summer internship in Maryland but it's clear they can't get married until he finds a real job so he can support her and nothing has come up.

 

It got me wondering how likely it was that a law "degree" from there would lead to a job... it must do for some people else it would have no appeal, but I can't see there being that many openings for someone graduating from unaccredited, fundamentalist online college compared to a real Law School.

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I was wondering since a blogger I follow, Mikaela at One Bright Corner, is engaged to a graduate of Gothard's Correspondence Law School called Joel Fisher. He did some sort of summer internship in Maryland but it's clear they can't get married until he finds a real job so he can support her and nothing has come up.

It got me wondering how likely it was that a law "degree" from there would lead to a job... it must do for some people else it would have no appeal, but I can't see there being that many openings for someone graduating from unaccredited, fundamentalist online college compared to a real Law School.

Link to their alumni association blog...obclaa.blogspot.com/

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I've been wondering the same thing. Are you familiar with the Beasley family? Well Dan Beasley took some online law course and managed to pass the bar. He is married to Bethany Wissiam, not sure if that last name is spelled correctly. I don't know if Dan is practicing law but I thought I heard he will only qualify to practice in CA. Can't remember if I heard this on FJ or another forum.

Sorry for getting off the subject but I think this can be related to this topic. There are several Crown College graduates from a local church. Most of them are related to the pastor. I also noticed that they all work for church or other Christian organizations. So I've heard Crown is not accredited. Does this mean graduates have no choice but to work for church organizations? Assuming the students are aware of this and have plans to only work for other Christians. The pastor's son and DIL both work at his church which has a school K-12 grade. They all are clearly fundies, but don't have issues with extra education for all their students.

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I think most states require graduation from an accredited law program in order to qualify for the Bar, so I can't imagine it is easy for them to find jobs.

I imagine they work for Churches/Christian Orgs because those are the only ones that will take them.

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California is the only state that allows people who graduated from non accredited law schools to sit for the bar exam. It is probably the hardest bar exam in the Country and they have to take the mini bar on top of everything else so not many people pass. Looking at the stats for the last bar exam 95 first time students from unaccredited law schools took it and 20 passed. The rates were lower for second time takers.

For Oak Brooke (that is the one you are talking about right?) it looks like in July 2013 3 repeaters took it and 0 passed.

http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Examina ... stics.aspx

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California is the only state that allows people who graduated from non accredited law schools to sit for the bar exam. It is probably the hardest bar exam in the Country and they have to take the mini bar on top of everything else so not many people pass. Looking at the stats for the last bar exam 95 first time students from unaccredited law schools took it and 20 passed. The rates were lower for second time takers.

For Oak Brooke (that is the one you are talking about right?) it looks like in July 2013 3 repeaters took it and 0 passed.

http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Examina ... stics.aspx

Yup: onebrightcorner.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/joels-graduation.html

He definitely wasn't one of those, though, having only just graduated in August.

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It is correct you can only sit for the bar in CA. I know someone that went to an online law school and did not sit for the bar and got a job. She was a nurse and went to an online law school out of California (I think it was called Concord) and she was able to get a job at a large insurance company doing legal research. The person I knew said that several doctors went to the online law school just to be a JD/MD and more for the title then to practice.

Now since Gothard followers can't work for anyone or any large corporation, hospital, or insurance company, I would think it would be very hard to find work.

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Yup: onebrightcorner.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/joels-graduation.html

He definitely wasn't one of those, though, having only just graduated in August.

He probably took it in February then but those results are not out yet.

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He probably took it in February then but those results are not out yet.

There's a lot of thinly veiled disappointment and frustration in her latest post. I wonder if he failed it...

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Real lawyers from good schools can't get jobs right now, so...

:clap:

Yes. There are too many law graduates and not enough job openings. It's not a career choice to be taken lightly. Law school is hell. A clown college isn't a real college. Why would someone hire a fundie who has no accredited education or schooling? People from ATI can't become lawyers or doctors because that would require going to real school.

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Do you think grads of Oak Brook have a decent chance of being hired as paralegals/legal assistants? Just curious, because my BIL (not fundy) went to a legitimate law school under pressure from his family and then never took the bar exam in his state, but has worked as a paralegal for many years and makes a pretty decent salary. I just wondered if grads from unaccredited schools even have a chance at that kind of career?

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I would say it depends on a lot of factors, but it's possible.

I will have forgotten about Joel by May 16 when the results come out. The earliest he will know is 6 PM PDT that day.

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Do you think grads of Oak Brook have a decent chance of being hired as paralegals/legal assistants? Just curious, because my BIL (not fundy) went to a legitimate law school under pressure from his family and then never took the bar exam in his state, but has worked as a paralegal for many years and makes a pretty decent salary. I just wondered if grads from unaccredited schools even have a chance at that kind of career?

Its unlikely but tt depends if they take and pass the bar then they would have to be covered under their employers malpractice insurance and there are other liability concerns. Because of this most large law firms wont hire them as policy. I know even in high cost of living areas the going rate for new JDs/current law students is 15-25 an hour depending on how much past law firm experience one has and small law firms are more likely to hire law students as paralegals so they can pay hourly and avoid giving benefits. Overall its really not likely to work well for them unless they have connections who will hire them.

If you want to do law school on the cheap (which is the only benefit for going to Oak Brooke)I would recommend going to England for 3 years out straight of high school. Then do a 1 year LLM program in the states that will qualify you to sit for the bar exam in most states. You can be done by 22 when most people are just starting law school and skip a lot of debt.

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Do you think grads of Oak Brook have a decent chance of being hired as paralegals/legal assistants? Just curious, because my BIL (not fundy) went to a legitimate law school under pressure from his family and then never took the bar exam in his state, but has worked as a paralegal for many years and makes a pretty decent salary. I just wondered if grads from unaccredited schools even have a chance at that kind of career?

A lot of law librarians have JDs as well. But they also tend to have MLIS's and experience in law.

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A lot of law librarians have JDs as well. But they also tend to have MLIS's and experience in law.

And that job market sucks as well. I just left law librarianship for It after a year of fruitless job searching. Frankly, right now, you're better off taking the money you would spend on a law degree and burning it as fuel. Less of a waste.

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And that job market sucks as well. I just left law librarianship for It after a year of fruitless job searching. Frankly, right now, you're better off taking the money you would spend on a law degree and burning it as fuel. Less of a waste.

I am graduating in less then 2 months and I have to say it does really depend. I have managed to work my way into a paid position offer. It really depends on how frugal you can be and how hard workign you are. There is a reason the people I know don't have offers some think they are entitled to 80k+ a year and are not applying to anything less, some didn't do internships/internships while in school and have no experience, others are just not applying expecting the job fairy to give them a job, I know a girl who wants to "do something fun" this summer so she wont be taking the bar in July and instead will be taking it in February, a lot of people who go for JD's are unbearably cocky and it come off in interviews, lots of people have wealthy parents and no concept of what work actually is and bounce from place to place. One of my section-mates has been fired from 3 paid legal internships for being "unteachable".

Everyone I know who has worked paid positions as second year and/or third years and did a summer or even two summers of unpaid legal work has some kind of job offer.

So I would say if you are just going to go to law school not because you want to be a lawyer don't go it wont pay off. If being a lawyer is what you want expect to work minimum wage at night to support working unpaid during the day for 3-4 months and work up from there.

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I've been wondering the same thing. Are you familiar with the Beasley family? Well Dan Beasley took some online law course and managed to pass the bar. He is married to Bethany Wissiam, not sure if that last name is spelled correctly. I don't know if Dan is practicing law but I thought I heard he will only qualify to practice in CA. Can't remember if I heard this on FJ or another forum.

.

IIRC, he passed California bar and works for HSLDA. From what I gather, the only jobs the absolute top to the fundy, unaccredited school graduates can have a future there, or maybe working legal within their own churches and organisations. I can imagine Gothard is looking for lagal counsel right now...

For 90+% though, nothing. Sad. These kids have done everything right by the standards they have been brought up by, and it has set them up for failure.

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A SAHM friend of mine spent thousands of dollars getting an online law degree. I think her goal was to become a paralegal. After she "graduated" she couldn't find any work in the legal field after nearly a year of trying.

On a bright note, she had been in an abusive marriage for years. She was able to use what she learned in law school to take the steps necessary to get an order of protection and file for divorce. Plus, just having a degree gave her enough confidence to successfully interview for a job once she started looking outside of the legal field.

She's now a happily divorced single mom earning enough money to raise her kids on her own and they are all thriving now that they've escaped from her abusive ass wipe of an ex.

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I am graduating in less then 2 months and I have to say it does really depend. I have managed to work my way into a paid position offer. It really depends on how frugal you can be and how hard workign you are. There is a reason the people I know don't have offers some think they are entitled to 80k+ a year and are not applying to anything less, some didn't do internships/internships while in school and have no experience, others are just not applying expecting the job fairy to give them a job, I know a girl who wants to "do something fun" this summer so she wont be taking the bar in July and instead will be taking it in February, a lot of people who go for JD's are unbearably cocky and it come off in interviews, lots of people have wealthy parents and no concept of what work actually is and bounce from place to place. One of my section-mates has been fired from 3 paid legal internships for being "unteachable".

Everyone I know who has worked paid positions as second year and/or third years and did a summer or even two summers of unpaid legal work has some kind of job offer.

So I would say if you are just going to go to law school not because you want to be a lawyer don't go it wont pay off. If being a lawyer is what you want expect to work minimum wage at night to support working unpaid during the day for 3-4 months and work up from there.

Let me say this in in the kindest possible way. Fuck you.

Congrats. you're lucky enough to get a job. I went to law school because a JD was required for my chosen career. I worked in that career for five years. I accepted that I would never make more than mid-five figures at the height of my career because I loved what I did. I got laid off and found that the comeptition was massive. I came in second place, over and over, out of 50+ applicants. After a year, my savings were not enough to continue to live off of (yes, I'm frugal enough to live off my savings for a year), so I had to switch fields.

The basic math right now is that there are more applicants than there are jobs in the legal field. If every single law student did everything exactly right, a lot of them would still not get jobs because the jobs aren't there.

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Let me say this in in the kindest possible way. Fuck you.

Congrats. you're lucky enough to get a job. I went to law school because a JD was required for my chosen career. I worked in that career for five years. I accepted that I would never make more than mid-five figures at the height of my career because I loved what I did. I got laid off and found that the comeptition was massive. I came in second place, over and over, out of 50+ applicants. After a year, my savings were not enough to continue to live off of (yes, I'm frugal enough to live off my savings for a year), so I had to switch fields.

The basic math right now is that there are more applicants than there are jobs in the legal field. If every single law student did everything exactly right, a lot of them would still not get jobs because the jobs aren't there.

I agree. I have been an attorney for 14 years and did not struggle to find a job or a decent-paying salary. HOWEVER, working in the legal field is highly geographically dependent. I live in a state that has struggled to retain lawyers for decades. I do well, but I work my ass off everyday. I'm having a baby in two days and I will take exactly two days off for maternity leave. There are simply not enough lawyers to cover the cases here.

I used to work as in house counsel for a legal outsourcing company and some of the attorneys I interviewed were good, hardworking, smart lawyers that were willing to move across the country for $21/hour and no benefits. We need less law schools and less false advertising about what a law degree can get you. We need a more rigorous accreditation process for schools and more truth in advertising for incoming law students.

These online, non-accredited law schools aren't helping people. They are diploma mills with little interest in actually employing attorneys.

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I agree. I have been an attorney for 14 years and did not struggle to find a job or a decent-paying salary. HOWEVER, working in the legal field is highly geographically dependent. I live in a state that has struggled to retain lawyers for decades. I do well, but I work my ass off everyday. I'm having a baby in two days and I will take exactly two days off for maternity leave. There are simply not enough lawyers to cover the cases here.

I used to work as in house counsel for a legal outsourcing company and some of the attorneys I interviewed were good, hardworking, smart lawyers that were willing to move across the country for $21/hour and no benefits. We need less law schools and less false advertising about what a law degree can get you. We need a more rigorous accreditation process for schools and more truth in advertising for incoming law students.

These online, non-accredited law schools aren't helping people. They are diploma mills with little interest in actually employing attorneys.

Congratulations with the baby sorry you can't take more time off. I will agree with a lot of this. I live in large East Coast city we have tons of lawyers you can get coverage for a court conference for like 80-150 depending on which court it is and how competent you want the guy covering to be. I think the going rate is about $100 an hour to cover a deposition.

The problem is many people are coming into law school with unrealistic expectations that lead to them being unhappy with the profession and unemployed/unemployable. I know a few that are graduating this year that when I talk to them about what they want I can't help but laugh. False advertisement both from the non-accredited law schools and law schools like Thomas Cooley create a lot of this problem. I think they should be shut down as a consumer protection measure. I did my research and understood what I was getting into. If anyone going into law school expects to make 100k+ right out they had better be going to Harvard and in the top 10%. A law degree is worth if for people who have the passion and put in the work. These days there is no reason to go to Oak Brooke you can get a real legal education from an ABA school if you have a pulse and a Bachelors. Any school that is misleading students into thinking they are guaranteed high starting salaries just for having the piece of paper needs to be shut down.

I don't regret going to law school and I would do it again. I know a lot of people that do regret it though it is not for everyone. Over the last few months I have seen the hard work and passion paying off with job offers. For people that went in with unrealistic expectations and haven't done the work (including building practical skills by taking unpaid/low paid work) it isn't looking as good. A law degree isn't a magical piece of paper but I wouldn't say burn the money instead of getting it to those that are willing to do the work and have the passion.

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I think you're getting an unrealistic view of the legal profession because you clearly live in a legal hotspot. I guess I can append my adivce to "If you can't afford to move to a short list of select locations..."

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I think you're getting an unrealistic view of the legal profession because you clearly live in a legal hotspot. I guess I can append my adivce to "If you can't afford to move to a short list of select locations..."

I suppose I can agree with this in part. I did leave my home state for law school in part because I didn't like choices of law schools there, but my desire to live in a big city and put a lot of space between my mother and myself played just as big a role. I had to take out living expenses loans which I am sure I will be paying off for long time in order to make it work because that rent is four times the price here then there. I don't regret it though I wanted to be a lawyer and three years later I see the decision paying off. If becoming a lawyer is your priority it will pay off. If you have obligations/priorities that come first then yes reconsider getting a JD. As I am sure you know the law school especially the first year is all consuming.

To be clear since I have re-read my past posts and I am not sure I did make this clear my advice is for people getting a JD to become a lawyer. If you are getting it and don't plan to practice law then don't bother it is a waste of time and money.

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