Has anyone from ATI Law School ever got a real Legal Career?

[formergothardite]

So basically the answer is no? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Pretty much. Welcome to the world of ATI. At least the law school is better than when we first started and all higher education was viewed as evil so you were supposed to pay to do menial labor at a training center instead of college so you could gain a bright countenance and future employers would just swoop down to higher you. :lol:

[Earthshine]

Josh Duggar has talked about wanting to become a lawyer. I guess this is where he'll be going between books tours and campaigning for extremists.

[Toothfairy]

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Josh Duggar has talked about wanting to become a lawyer. I guess this is where he'll be going between books tours and campaigning for extremists.

What's stopping him?

[mypsychoticself]

Do you think grads of Oak Brook have a decent chance of being hired as paralegals/legal assistants? Just curious, because my BIL (not fundy) went to a legitimate law school under pressure from his family and then never took the bar exam in his state, but has worked as a paralegal for many years and makes a pretty decent salary. I just wondered if grads from unaccredited schools even have a chance at that kind of career?

That would depend on the state. California has some fairly strict requirements before you can be a paralegal, but other states are more lax. Some states requires some form of certification, and in others pretty much anyone could be a paralegal.

[lilith]

It is correct you can only sit for the bar in CA. I know someone that went to an online law school and did not sit for the bar and got a job. She was a nurse and went to an online law school out of California (I think it was called Concord) and she was able to get a job at a large insurance company doing legal research. The person I knew said that several doctors went to the online law school just to be a JD/MD and more for the title then to practice.

Now since Gothard followers can't work for anyone or any large corporation, hospital, or insurance company, I would think it would be very hard to find work.

Can they open their own "godly" practices?

Here (NSW, Australia) after getting a law degree you need to pass a diploma from The College of Law, run by the Law Society, the professional body for solicitors. Once you pass and have a practicing certificate you only have to practice for a few years before you can set up your own practice. If there was one fundie with a practice who could employ new graduates, even if its only on paper, they could then go forth and start their own small practices.

Bar exams are different here, as barristers are different from solicitors. Holders of law degrees can complete an intensive course then have to pass a set of three very difficult exams, which have a significant fail rate. But after passing, Barristers are rarely employed outside of public practice - they almost all work for themselves. I can see a chambers not wanting to take on a loony fundie who had just qualified, but he could certainly work for himself if he could find solicitors to give him briefs.

But Gothard probably wouldn't approve of the wigs and robes....,,

[Jess]

Can they open their own "godly" practices?

Here (NSW, Australia) after getting a law degree you need to pass a diploma from The College of Law, run by the Law Society, the professional body for solicitors. Once you pass and have a practicing certificate you only have to practice for a few years before you can set up your own practice. If there was one fundie with a practice who could employ new graduates, even if its only on paper, they could then go forth and start their own small practices.

Bar exams are different here, as barristers are different from solicitors. Holders of law degrees can complete an intensive course then have to pass a set of three very difficult exams, which have a significant fail rate. But after passing, Barristers are rarely employed outside of public practice - they almost all work for themselves. I can see a chambers not wanting to take on a loony fundie who had just qualified, but he could certainly work for himself if he could find solicitors to give him briefs.

But Gothard probably wouldn't approve of the wigs and robes....,,

They can only practice in California and they need to take and pass the "baby bar" after their first year (this is a requirement for students who go to unaccredited law schools only). Then they need to take the bar exam after they get their JD. I posted the link to the result page. On the most recent bar exam the results are out for July 2013. Three graduates retook the exam and all three failed. In Feb 2013 9 took it for the first time and 6 passed. Two repeated and both failed. While that isn't a large enough sample to get a good % on how many graduates pass statistically its well below average. After passing the bar you get certified to have good character and fitness.

So assuming they are one of the 60% or so that pass it they are then able to practice law they do not need to work with another attorney they can then go out and start there own business. However, good luck getting reasonable malpractice insurance and clients.

However, there is a risk getting disbarred/suspended because you have to competent in order to take a case. Essentially if you practice tax law and all your experience is in tax all and your friend is accused of murder and you take the case it could be an ethical violation because you are not competent to take the case. So, if a graduate has no prior legal job experience (and I don't think they are getting the externships/internships they would need to gain that at Oak Brooke) they can't really ethically start their own practice and take cases. They might be doing it anyway though if its not complicated and nothing bad happens to the client they would probably get away with it.

[Stephanie66]

Maybe if they did straight consumer bankruptcy or really simple divorces and had a very good paralegal.

On one of the Judge Judy DVDs, there was a terrible lawyer who botched a child custody case. He was later found murdered in Mexico. Kinda beside the point, but there are some terrible lawyers in CA. He was so bad that the defendant won the counterclaim for $5000.

[FloraKitty35]

Real lawyers from good schools can't get jobs right now, so...

I went to Widener University Legal Education Institute, which is ABA accredited and part of Widener Law School. I am a trained paralegal. I have worked one temporary paralegal job in the 2 years since I finished at Widener. In this area the real lawyers fresh out of law school end up working as the paralegal, regardless of whether or not they've taken the bar exam just to be employed at a law firm until a position opens up or in the case of Chester County, PA's AG's office several of the lawyers who worked there were not paid because of budget cuts, but stayed on staff to hope a paying position opened up (one my professor worked there as a paid deputy AG and she told my class that).

[Aggie2145]

Maybe if they did straight consumer bankruptcy or really simple divorces and had a very good paralegal.

On one of the Judge Judy DVDs, there was a terrible lawyer who botched a child custody case. He was later found murdered in Mexico. Kinda beside the point, but there are some terrible lawyers in CA. He was so bad that the defendant won the counterclaim for $5000.

Very good paralegals often earn more than first year attorneys. It would be difficult to persuade a good paralegal away from a stable law practice to work with a solo practitioner right out of law school.

I'm a civil litigation attorney and thought it would be fun to second chair a divorce case with my cousin (a family law attorney.) I quickly learned there is no such thing as a simple divorce. Even if it seems simple on its face, when things get heated...things get complicated. And I would not touch a bankruptcy case with a ten foot pole.

[lawfulevil]

Hey now, there is such a thing as a simple divorce... it's just that nobody involved hires a lawyer.

I had a simple divorce. We sat down together, did the paperwork, turned it in, and 2 months later we were divorced. We're still pretty good friends.

[terranova]

If I remember correctly, Dan Beasley works (or was working last I heard) for the HSLDA. He's not listed on their website however, so perhaps it's behind behind the scenes stuff. He did pass the Bar though, I think it was the California one?

[Terrie]

Jess, my problem with your take on it is that you seem to think that if people do things the "right" way for the "right" reasons, they won't have problems. while it's true there are plenty of people who dug the holes they now find themselves trying to climb out of, a lot of people did everything "right" and still got screwed. Your take on the issue is seriously insulting to every one of them.

It's human nature to want to think that we can control what happenes, but the sad fact is that what other people do has an impact on us. What you are doing is a more mild version of telling assault victims "Well, I've never had that problem, but I'm careful about where I go, and I always stay in groups, etc, etc...."

[Aggie2145]

Hey now, there is such a thing as a simple divorce... it's just that nobody involved hires a lawyer.

I had a simple divorce. We sat down together, did the paperwork, turned it in, and 2 months later we were divorced. We're still pretty good friends.

My apologies, I should have said, there is no such thing as a simple divorce legal practice. If everyone is cordial and can agree long enough to get everything in writing, no one needs an attorney.

[thekate]

Jess, my problem with your take on it is that you seem to think that if people do things the "right" way for the "right" reasons, they won't have problems.

She's a legal fundie!

[Jess]

Jess, my problem with your take on it is that you seem to think that if people do things the "right" way for the "right" reasons, they won't have problems. while it's true there are plenty of people who dug the holes they now find themselves trying to climb out of, a lot of people did everything "right" and still got screwed. Your take on the issue is seriously insulting to every one of them.

It's human nature to want to think that we can control what happenes, but the sad fact is that what other people do has an impact on us. What you are doing is a more mild version of telling assault victims "Well, I've never had that problem, but I'm careful about where I go, and I always stay in groups, etc, etc...."

My problem with your take is that I just completely disagree that burning the money is better then getting the degree. Law degrees (accredited anyway) do have value.

[YPestis]

It seems someone attending an ATI law school would most likely find careers in the parallel patriarchy economy. I guess a naive, fundie may think it's no biggie since working other fundie groups is what they always wanted to do. However, it's never a good idea to close your doors so unnecessarily. What happens if you find out a fellow fundie needs a lawyer but requires someone who is legally licensed to practice? Or if there are good jobs out there that doesn't violate fundie scripture but require you to attend an accredited law school? It just seems so dumb. Law school isn't impossible to get in, it's almost cultish how some fundies want to surround themselves with like-minded individuals.

[Terrie]

My problem with your take is that I just completely disagree that burning the money is better then getting the degree. Law degrees (accredited anyway) do have value.

So say something thing about that value. You've only been talking about how you did your degree the "right" way, and people who are having trouble finding a job are the ones who aren't really committed the way you are, who failed to do the research you did, or who aren't taking it seriously enough. And you seem to have zero clue how pretentious that makes you sound. You have fixated on a bit of artistic hyperbole to insist that the real problem is not the massive changes wrought in the field by the economic downturn, but the fact that many law students aren't as good or as committed as you. Who are you trying to convince?

[snarkopolis]

From my memory of bar exam rules in almost every state (I was looking into relocating) California was the only one where you could sit for the bar exam with a degree from an unaccredited law school. And you could only practice in California with that degree. In my state we do not have reciprocity so any man who wanted to practice here would have to take the exam. I don't know anyone who would take the exam for fun.

Jess--I think it is wonderful that you have somehow navigated the school/job market that is law so brilliantly. In my overcrowded metro area, even brilliant ATTORNEYS with years of experience have trouble finding employment unless they are in a specialty field. Its' not about "doing it right", its' about knowing someone or doing an area no one else wants to, for substantially less money. Everyone is committed; for the amount of money we all borrowed to go to law school, we are all committed. A law degree has value but the cost/benefit analysis should be done in the context of too many lawyers/economic downturn in certain fields (real estate, all securities work, contracts, monetary caps on tort matters)/and the fact that the explosion of reality court shows has people thinking they do not need a lawyer has hurt the economic field that is law. I suspect you are not in a major market but have found a little niche. Not so much in the bigger markets where people want to be.