Hobby Lobby Oral Arguments Started Today!

[slh12280]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03 ... urt-case/#

I just don't understand. There are people going on about abortion when this has nothing to do with abortion. IUDs and emergency contraception do not cause abortions. I like the sign that said: "My birth control. Not my bosses business." I am sympathetic to the concept of religious freedom but your rights stop when someone else's begin. I mean Catholic organizations already got an out, which I agreed with since they are explicitly religious organizations. In my opinion, Hobby Lobby is run as a secular business and so should have to follow the laws. Of course, this case has more to it than that such as questions about corporate personhood. As much as I am not for big government, surprisingly I am hoping Hobby Lobby doesn't win. I feel it would set a bad precedent.

[SPHASH]

If the owners of Hobby Lobby are so adamant about being anti-birth control, why don't they just sell the business?

[PennySycamore]

They weren't so anti-birth control BEFORE the mandated coverage with the Affordable Care Act aka Obamacare. They always used to offer health insurance with contraceptive coverage.

[Cleopatra7]

They weren't so anti-birth control BEFORE the mandated coverage with the Affordable Care Act aka Obamacare. They always used to offer health insurance with contraceptive coverage.

I think this needs to be emphasized, because it just seems like HL is being contrarian because, Obamacare. Catholic institutions have at least been consistently anti-birth control. But HL is not owned by a church or other religious organization, it is a private business. If corporations are persons with the right to religious expression, why is it assumed that HL's religious beliefs naturally coincide with the family that owns it? Why aren't the religious beliefs of the workers considered? Isn't the point of a corporation to spread around liability and not be associated with a narrow set of people?

[Coconut Flan]

A friend of mine who teaches at a Catholic school said contraception was covered under their insurance until the bishops went on a campaign.

[doggie]

this can be said about birth control too

[Toothfairy]

It's my body and I can do whatever I want with it

[JenniferJuniper]

And in most of these situations, the employers aren't self-insured, they are helping subsidize employees' group health premiums with an insurer.

But whether self-insured or not, don't these numbnuts get that pregnancy and a then a new person added to the policy are a health of a lot more expensive than a birth control pill regime?

And since when do profit making corporations qualify as individuals with religious freedoms that trump the personal freedoms of individual Americans? Don't like birth control? Then personally abstain or do it Duggar-style, but stay out of your employees' lives.

I confess that part of me hopes this mess all goes Hobby Lobby's way and that this leads us more quickly to a - already clearly inevitable - single payer system where employers aren't involved in any way in their employees' personal health decisions. No one's health should depend upon their employer's whims or personal belief system. It's really quite a bizarre set up when you think about it.

[Rebelwife]

And in most of these situations, the employers aren't self-insured, they are helping subsidize employees' group health premiums with an insurer.

But whether self-insured or not, don't these numbnuts get that pregnancy and a then a new person added to the policy are a health of a lot more expensive than a birth control pill regime?

And since when do profit making corporations qualify as individuals with religious freedoms that trump the personal freedoms of individual Americans? Don't like birth control? Then personally abstain or do it Duggar-style, but stay out of your employees' lives.

I confess that part of me hopes this mess all goes Hobby Lobby's way and that this leads us more quickly to a - already clearly inevitable - single payer system where employers aren't involved in any way in their employees' personal health decisions. No one's health should depend upon their employer's whims or personal belief system. It's really quite a bizarre set up when you think about it.

This! It's always interesting to me when more nuanced news media sources tease out the details of polls about the ACA. There's generally a decent percentage of people who don't like it, but only because they don't think it went far enough, not because evil-liberal-Muslim-Obama-Godless-whatever. If people ask me about it I generally say that my preference has always been a single payer system but this is certainly better than what came before.

The thing that always has me going :think: are those over-65 people that are shouting the loudest about how bad the ACA is. The only thing that would make them shout louder is taking away their single-payer medicare benefits.

[Alcyone]

They weren't so anti-birth control BEFORE the mandated coverage with the Affordable Care Act aka Obamacare. They always used to offer health insurance with contraceptive coverage.

Hobby Lobby isn't anti-birth control. This may not have been emphasized in many articles covering the case but Hobby Lobby provides 16 out of the 20 birth control medications or devices mandated by the ACA. The covered medication includes contraceptive pills that many women take for health conditions that range from acne to PCOS. They still offer a wide range of contraceptive coverage and apparently, they plan to continue to do so.

[salex]

I confess that part of me hopes this mess all goes Hobby Lobby's way and that this leads us more quickly to a - already clearly inevitable - single payer system where employers aren't involved in any way in their employees' personal health decisions. No one's health should depend upon their employer's whims or personal belief system. It's really quite a bizarre set up when you think about it.

I have long believed that the Big Companies and both sides of the aisle in DC want single payer-- the biggest companies in the nation employ people in countries with Single Payer, but the Right can't come out for it (at least while Obama is President) because Evil Socialism. I believe both political sides are making this version of healthcare as big a mess as possible so we all beg for single payer, and they are manipulating it in this way because neither political party has any balls to take a stance, convince the public it is a good one and work together for the betterment of the country. But the damage it is doing me personally while they appear to pay off the Insurance companies with a big final pay grab is painful to me. (Our small business insurance rates have increased double digits each of the last 4 years... the absolute legal max increase each year)

[salex]

Hobby Lobby isn't anti-birth control. This may not have been emphasized in many articles covering the case but Hobby Lobby provides 16 out of the 20 birth control medications or devices mandated by the ACA. The covered medication includes contraceptive pills that many women take for health conditions that range from acne to PCOS. They still offer a wide range of contraceptive coverage and apparently, they plan to continue to do so.

What I find hypocritical is that they consider the ones they don't want to cover as causing abortion... but they have built their fortune selling little gee-gaws made in china--thus supporting onechild/pro abortion policies when it made them money....

[dairyfreelife]

This! It's always interesting to me when more nuanced news media sources tease out the details of polls about the ACA. There's generally a decent percentage of people who don't like it, but only because they don't think it went far enough, not because evil-liberal-Muslim-Obama-Godless-whatever. If people ask me about it I generally say that my preference has always been a single payer system but this is certainly better than what came before.

The thing that always has me going :think: are those over-65 people that are shouting the loudest about how bad the ACA is. The only thing that would make them shout louder is taking away their single-payer medicare benefits.

I am going to disagree. I know many people not happy about ACA and a lot of it boils down to the fact that people have no choice but to get insurance and it's either medicaid and if they can't get that, they have to buy their own and they can't afford it so it is cheaper to just pay the penalty of not having any insurance at all, insurance companies and employers are not being douchebags and cutting back or getting rid of insurance all together, and that a lot of things Obama claimed would happen did not happen...also that many supporters of the bill at the time said they did not read the bill before signing it into law. Those things really bother a number of people. I know a lot of people happy that there's been an attempt to change healthcare and that preexisting conditions can't be turned down...but if you have a pre-existing condition your insurance just got a lot more expensive.

Honestly I think the dumbest thing they ever did was make health insurance available through employers. I don't know who came up with that idea, but it was really, really stupid. Also that dental and vision insurance is separate from regular health insurance.

I don't know the solution, but am struggling to see how the ACA is really helping people overall.

[Rebelwife]

I am going to disagree. I know many people not happy about ACA and a lot of it boils down to the fact that people have no choice but to get insurance and it's either medicaid and if they can't get that, they have to buy their own and they can't afford it so it is cheaper to just pay the penalty of not having any insurance at all, insurance companies and employers are not being douchebags and cutting back or getting rid of insurance all together, and that a lot of things Obama claimed would happen did not happen...also that many supporters of the bill at the time said they did not read the bill before signing it into law. Those things really bother a number of people. I know a lot of people happy that there's been an attempt to change healthcare and that preexisting conditions can't be turned down...but if you have a pre-existing condition your insurance just got a lot more expensive.

Honestly I think the dumbest thing they ever did was make health insurance available through employers. I don't know who came up with that idea, but it was really, really stupid. Also that dental and vision insurance is separate from regular health insurance.

I don't know the solution, but am struggling to see how the ACA is really helping people overall.

That's fine, I don't think we are disagreeing actually. My point was that when the far right pulls numbers out of people who aren't satisfied with the ACA and says "see!" that it's too simplistic of an argument.

As for why the US system is the way it it, it really stems from WWII and just after. There were wage controls in place so many companies started making benefits available as a way to circumvent the controls and attract workers. Western European countries went more toward the social welfare system in that era in part because their countries were decimated in a way that the US wasn't and doing it the US way wasn't even an option. The US got all of the benefits of the post WW recovery boom but didn't have the infrastructure devastation that Europe did. The only real "damage" we incurred in that vein was Pearl Harbor.

[julie paradox]

Honestly I think the dumbest thing they ever did was make health insurance available through employers. I don't know who came up with that idea, but it was really, really stupid. Also that dental and vision insurance is separate from regular health insurance.

Well, I know nothing but I suspect it was more that employers started offering it as a perk (in the same way that some places give free lunches, or company cars). And dental and vision are separate because dentists and opticians run themselves completely separately.

Part of the problem is that your health care system grew without any imposed structure for so long. By the time anyone tried to do anything it was multi-million business.

[BravaAmica]

I am going to disagree. I know many people not happy about ACA and a lot of it boils down to the fact that people have no choice but to get insurance and it's either medicaid and if they can't get that, they have to buy their own and they can't afford it so it is cheaper to just pay the penalty of not having any insurance at all, insurance companies and employers are not being douchebags and cutting back or getting rid of insurance all together, and that a lot of things Obama claimed would happen did not happen...also that many supporters of the bill at the time said they did not read the bill before signing it into law. Those things really bother a number of people. I know a lot of people happy that there's been an attempt to change healthcare and that preexisting conditions can't be turned down...but if you have a pre-existing condition your insurance just got a lot more expensive.

Honestly I think the dumbest thing they ever did was make health insurance available through employers. I don't know who came up with that idea, but it was really, really stupid. Also that dental and vision insurance is separate from regular health insurance.

I don't know the solution, but am struggling to see how the ACA is really helping people overall.

Well, my family is helped by the ACA. My son's asthma is now a covered medical expense. Pre-ACA, it was considered a pre-existing condition so we had to pay out of pocket for anything related to asthma. We wre paying up to $1300/month for his prescriptions, ER visits, nebulizer, and doctor appointments. Now, we pay about $275.

Oh, and our premiums went down, a lot, and our coverage actually improved, since the ACA.

Oh, and my MIL can afford to pay for insurance AND doctor appointment co-pays AND prescription co-pays.

Thanks, Obama!

[dairyfreelife]

Well, my family is helped by the ACA. My son's asthma is now a covered medical expense. Pre-ACA, it was considered a pre-existing condition so we had to pay out of pocket for anything related to asthma. We wre paying up to $1300/month for his prescriptions, ER visits, nebulizer, and doctor appointments. Now, we pay about $275.

Oh, and our premiums went down, a lot, and our coverage actually improved, since the ACA.

Oh, and my MIL can afford to pay for insurance AND doctor appointment co-pays AND prescription co-pays.

Thanks, Obama!

My premiums went up and my co-pays have stayed the same, except with the ER. An ER visit co-pay is 125 dollars this year and it was 110 last year. I also know many people who have gone on medicaid because their insurance via employer was more expensive. Also people who don't have insurance and can't afford the premiums and are taking the penalty because it is cheaper. Also, pre-existing condition for me...when I looked into ACA, the cost was way too much for me. Totally not affordable.

Also, employers downsizing or cutting hours back claiming they can't afford to pay the health insurance. I don't necessarily know if it's true they can't pay it and in some cases I think it's bullshit they can't afford it, but that's their excuse.

It may help some people, but I just am not seeing the improvements myself or to many people I know. Only my birth control cost has gone down since it's now free. The other meds...same.

[Firiel]

But guys, Matt Walsh has this whole Hobby Lobby thing figured out-- why can't you just understand?! :mrgreen:

themattwalshblog.com/2014/03/25/a-brilliant-and-innovative-solution-for-women-who-want-birth-control/

[dairyfreelife]

That's fine, I don't think we are disagreeing actually. My point was that when the far right pulls numbers out of people who aren't satisfied with the ACA and says "see!" that it's too simplistic of an argument.

As for why the US system is the way it it, it really stems from WWII and just after. There were wage controls in place so many companies started making benefits available as a way to circumvent the controls and attract workers. Western European countries went more toward the social welfare system in that era in part because their countries were decimated in a way that the US wasn't and doing it the US way wasn't even an option. The US got all of the benefits of the post WW recovery boom but didn't have the infrastructure devastation that Europe did. The only real "damage" we incurred in that vein was Pearl Harbor.

That's politics, lol. They are always pulling numbers out of their ass.

I do know why it is the way it is, I just think it was not a smart move. And I do think dental and vision is a major part of overall healthcare for many people. I get why they are separate, but I think we all know that poor dental health can lead to serious medical issues. It would be fine if they were covered more, but I know a number of companies that don't offer it, but it's so needed. :(

[dairyfreelife]

oh, and on topic...Hobby Lobby can suck it. It's none of their damn business what medicines their employees are given or why.

[Idolatry]

I get why Hobby Lobby decided to use the word "abortion" as a neat trick to glom on to something that makes a lot of people uncomfortable (and also to cover their own hypocrisy of birth control but not plan B/IUDs), but in the end it just makes them look like idiots and really hurts the cause as a whole. Telling a woman with an IUD that she had an abortion is just a stupid political move. But then so is making your for-profit giant retail company the face of anti-birth control crazy. Bottom line, bad for business.

[Rebelwife]

That's politics, lol. They are always pulling numbers out of their ass.

I do know why it is the way it is, I just think it was not a smart move. And I do think dental and vision is a major part of overall healthcare for many people. I get why they are separate, but I think we all know that poor dental health can lead to serious medical issues. It would be fine if they were covered more, but I know a number of companies that don't offer it, but it's so needed. :(

Ah, OK. I was just responding to the part where you said you didn't know who came up with that idea. I didn't know it was a rhetorical question.

[Alcyone]

What I find hypocritical is that they consider the ones they don't want to cover as causing abortion... but they have built their fortune selling little gee-gaws made in china--thus supporting onechild/pro abortion policies when it made them money....

This is a thought-provoking point. I don't shop there since I am not a "crafty" person and so I had not put two and two together. You are right. If they are buying most of their supplies from China, they are supporting a country that forces abortion upon women. Pretty disturbing.

[AlexIsAwake]

My premiums went up and my co-pays have stayed the same, except with the ER. An ER visit co-pay is 125 dollars this year and it was 110 last year. I also know many people who have gone on medicaid because their insurance via employer was more expensive. Also people who don't have insurance and can't afford the premiums and are taking the penalty because it is cheaper. Also, pre-existing condition for me...when I looked into ACA, the cost was way too much for me. Totally not affordable.

Also, employers downsizing or cutting hours back claiming they can't afford to pay the health insurance. I don't necessarily know if it's true they can't pay it and in some cases I think it's bullshit they can't afford it, but that's their excuse.

It may help some people, but I just am not seeing the improvements myself or to many people I know. Only my birth control cost has gone down since it's now free. The other meds...same.

Obamacare is definitely far from perfect. Some people are helped, some are harmed. My family is one that is harmed. My parents are both getting older and need health insurance, but neither of their jobs provide it, as they are kept just under full time. They also make just enough that they don't qualify for a subsidy. We are talking about 2 people who are starting to have health problems, but are too hard working to quit their jobs. Anyway, because they cannot afford to pay for the Marketplace premiums, they are going to have to pay the penalty come tax time. They already don't get anything back at tax time, and now they are going to have to pay in. They barely make it each month and are on a tight budget. If a doctor visit is needed, they have no choice but to put it on a credit card, and it's been that way for years. Something is very, VERY wrong here. I literally don't know what they are going to do as the penalty goes up each year for them. They will eventually not be able to pay it. Then what, are they going to throw them in jail for not being able to afford it?

I am lucky, as my boss pays my health insurance in full. My partner has just been offered insurance through her job, and we managed to squeeze her payments into our budget by cutting out cable service and selling one of our vehicles. We share the car now and have to work out how each of us will get to work that way. If I had to pay for my own health insurance on top of it, we wouldn't be able to afford it. It's great to hear that there area actually people out there who have been helped by Obamacare, but it sure hasn't done anything for us. And we are just regular, lower middle class people who go to our job every day and just hope to keep a roof over our heads and perhaps have a little extra money once in a while to go out to eat or drive over to the beach for a day.

Thing is, I have been a Libertarian for years. And I agree that the system is so broken that something drastic needs to be done. It's sad when even a Libertarian is calling for a single payer system just because that's the only way you can see your parents getting proper medical care any time soon and avoiding excessive fines and whatever punishment they hand out when you can no longer pay the fines. It's WRONG, and I would love to see people who support the ACA and are even benefited by it to acknowledge that it's not fair that others are being harmed in the process. I've yet to see it. I too believe that the current system was designed to fail in order to bring about single payer, I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

[AlexIsAwake]

This is a thought-provoking point. I don't shop there since I am not a "crafty" person and so I had not put two and two together. You are right. If they are buying most of their supplies from China, they are supporting a country that forces abortion upon women. Pretty disturbing.

It IS disturbing and extremely hypocritical. I don't buy their wares either, nor would I after this.