Break off the courtship and you might end up alone?

[freehannie]

Has anyone read the article posted on the Reconstructionist Theonomist facebook page called "To That Girl who just broke off her Courtship"?

truelovedoesntwait.com/the-path-to-marriage/to-that-girl-who-just-broke-off-her-courtship/

The author seems very angry in this fictional account of some girl breaking off a courtship. He basically makes it seem like if a girl breaks it off, she might end up alone forever and be breaking God's plan for her. I'm thinking that he is confused about how patriarchy and in particular patriarchal courtship works. Patriarchy doesn't benefit all men equally and in fact some women end up better off than some men. In the courtship process among conservative Christians a woman would be remiss if she wasn't insistent upon a man who was capable of supporting a large family, who had a good work ethic, who treated her well, etc. because once she marries she has no other options. She has no work experience or formal education, she can't limit the size of her family, and she can't divorce. So she has to be choosy. And if her family of origin can support her into adulthood to risk leaving that for marriage to an uncertain person would be a fool's errand. This is why it's so important in these circles for the girl's father to vet the prospective groom. And, thus, an attractive girl from a better-off family can and should be choosy. See the Botkins, etc.

For men who don't meet these strict criteria, they would actually be better off leaving the conservative Christian marriage market because women on the outside are more prepared to support themselves, know they can leave if necessary, and can limit the size of their family if necessary. These women would be more likely to marry someone who would be risky inside conservative circles. But they of course expect to be treated as fully human.

But to assume that patriarchal courtship will link up every man, regardless of how suitable he is as a provider, is ridiculous. And the idea that it's all the woman's fault when this doesn't happen is even more silly. Now girls without powerful or even moderately successful families have far less options and might be willing to marry a risk because staying home isn't an option and neither is having a career. But that isn't because they are morally superior, it's because they lack patriarchal resources and are trying to get some. And that's actually how patriarchy functions. Women from less families have less options than women from successful families. But women from successful families have more options than unsuccessful men. At least in terms of marriage partners and whether or not to marry. Also under their ideology, it's not a huge sacrifice for a woman to refrain from sex for life as it would be for a man, which again gives her more options.

[salex]

The guy who posted that did so not long after Nathaniel Darnell's courtship ended. And he works with Darnell on a couple of sites, at least loosely, so I wondered if the break off and the article were somehow linked.

[August]

According to their rules, she's used goods, so yes, it's consistent for them to say you're less desirable if you've had a courtship. Remember, the difference between courtship and dating is that you only do courtship once or you've given pieces* of yourself to multiple people.

*must be related to sex, because they never say having multiple children means you love them less, or loving a partner means you love god less.

[DGayle]

What is it with these people thinking love is a zero-sum game? More kids means love grows, so shouldn't sleeping around a bit mean more love?

[16strong]

So wait, if the purpose of courtship is to get to know someone before getting engaged, but you "give a piece of your heart away" if you break it off, then what's the point of courting at all? Why not just blindly get married to the dude after daddy interrogates him for a couple of days?

[nausicaa]

So wait, if the purpose of courtship is to get to know someone before getting engaged, but you "give a piece of your heart away" if you break it off, then what's the point of courting at all? Why not just blindly get married to the dude after daddy interrogates him for a couple of days?

Sadly, I think that's where some fundies are headed.

[FloraKitty35]

So wait, if the purpose of courtship is to get to know someone before getting engaged, but you "give a piece of your heart away" if you break it off, then what's the point of courting at all? Why not just blindly get married to the dude after daddy interrogates him for a couple of days?

I guess they never read II Corinthians 13, about love.

[salex]

What they seem to forget is that for most people, single would be far better than married to the wrong person.

[SamuraiKatz]

Better to never marry and be content with the single life than trapped in a fundy marriage from hell...

[lilah]

They are anti-courtship and pro betorthal, which is basicallywhen your parents tell you who you are going to marry. Joy!

Here they dismantle the Botkinette's justification for why they aren't courting

truelovedoesntwait.com/the-path-to-marriage/readiness/the-marriage-crisis-courtship-and-a-generation-of-frustrated-godly-youth/

[16strong]

They are anti-courtship and pro betorthal, which is basicallywhen your parents tell you who you are going to marry. Joy!

Here they dismantle the Botkinette's justification for why they aren't courting

truelovedoesntwait.com/the-path-to-marriage/readiness/the-marriage-crisis-courtship-and-a-generation-of-frustrated-godly-youth/

While I took issue with much of this article, I was glad to finally see someone in the fundie world acknowledge that the issue of a low marriage rate is because it's almost impossible for guys to get past the several hour interrogation and subsequent carefully-monitored courtship. Can't be doing much for guys' self-esteem. Or girls, for that matter. Because their father won't approve a guy, they start thinking something is wrong with them.

Also, some guys aren't that well-spoken under pressure. What about fundie guys with anxiety? They'd never pass, yet many of them would be kind and caring husbands. I see why fundie guys go for fundie-lite/conservative mainstream girls. There's way less pressure involved.

[Toothfairy]

Get married to the wrong person and you can still end up alone.

[YPestis]

According to their rules, she's used goods, so yes, it's consistent for them to say you're less desirable if you've had a courtship. Remember, the difference between courtship and dating is that you only do courtship once or you've given pieces* of yourself to multiple people.

*must be related to sex, because they never say having multiple children means you love them less, or loving a partner means you love god less.

I'm confused....my understanding of fundie courtship is that it prevents people from "giving their hearts away", unlike dating, which can cause a person to fall in love and/or have sex with boyfriend/girlfriend. I've never heard of the idea that courtship is only done once. Isn't it suppose to be that courtship (according to fundies) allow couples to explore each other without falling in love or having sex? Otherwise, what's the point of having a courtship if you are suppose to marry the person that courts you? :think:

[Toothfairy]

I'm confused....my understanding of fundie courtship is that it prevents people from "giving their hearts away", unlike dating, which can cause a person to fall in love and/or have sex with boyfriend/girlfriend. I've never heard of the idea that courtship is only done once. Isn't it suppose to be that courtship (according to fundies) allow couples to explore each other without falling in love or having sex? Otherwise, what's the point of having a courtship if you are suppose to marry the person that courts you? :think:

Fundies are backwards. What does that exactly mean by giving your heart away? You can't prevent people from liking each other. I think courtships are much more heartbreaking than dating. Since the whole family is involved and it's suppose to lead to marriage, there's a lot of pressure on a couple to make it work. And how can you not get your feelings hurt? When people date or court they have feelings and interest for that person. When it's broken off feelings and emotions are hurt.

[Toothfairy]

Why not do arranged marriages?

[Jana814]

Why not do arranged marriages?

Interesting thought!! I always wondered that too.

[crawfishgirl]

That author writes like an arrogant ass. He is angry that a woman did not worship her pursuer and had the gall to turn down his advances, since all women should automatically worship men and take the first one who comes around (in his opinion), regardless of his actions. I guess that women should not have any opinions or needs of their own.

[dairyfreelife]

Interesting thought!! I always wondered that too.

Arranged marriages still give the couple a chance to break it off before getting engaged...at least in cultures that do arranged marriages.

[Rescinded and Mended]

While I took issue with much of this article, I was glad to finally see someone in the fundie world acknowledge that the issue of a low marriage rate is because it's almost impossible for guys to get past the several hour interrogation and subsequent carefully-monitored courtship. Can't be doing much for guys' self-esteem. Or girls, for that matter. Because their father won't approve a guy, they start thinking something is wrong with them.

Also, some guys aren't that well-spoken under pressure. What about fundie guys with anxiety? They'd never pass, yet many of them would be kind and caring husbands. I see why fundie guys go for fundie-lite/conservative mainstream girls. There's way less pressure involved.

I think this is all true, and it's exactly what worries me about Jessa and Ben's courtship. Supposedly, the biggest reason why Ben got anywhere with Jessa was because of his ability to charm Jim Bob during the interview portion of the relationship. Just because he was able to speak eloquently doesn't mean he's the best man for Jessa. Many people are capable of using their words to further their own agendas and improve their prospects in the world - doesn't mean that they have good intentions toward whomever they are using to achieve this end.

Ben reminds me of the snake-oil salesmen of old, saying anything and everything to promote his own interests.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think this is all true, and it's exactly what worries me about Jessa and Ben's courtship. Supposedly, the biggest reason why Ben got anywhere with Jessa was because of his ability to charm Jim Bob during the interview portion of the relationship. Just because he was able to speak eloquently doesn't mean he's the best man for Jessa. Many people are capable of using their words to further their own agendas and improve their prospects in the world - doesn't mean that they have good intentions toward whomever they are using to achieve this end.

Ben reminds me of the snake-oil salesmen of old, saying anything and everything to promote his own interests.

I hope if he is doing this, its with good intentions (he loves her and lied on the interview because Jimbob wouldn't let him otherwise, but plans to give her a more normal life than she has now) not that he wants a pretty but naive woman who has been trained to be completely submissive, and the attention of being on TV.

[Talitha Cumi]

Let that imperfect young man, who lusts, is lazy, plays too many video games, and has no earthly idea of how precious your daughter is to you, let him marry your daughter. Stop waiting, get up, go to your elders and say, “My daughter has passed the flower of her age. I have raised her to be a wife and mother, to homeschool and keep the home, to honor, respect and obey her husband, but she has no husband. She is not perfect. She will probably forget half of what we told her and abandon the rest as soon as she faces a real husband instead of her dream. But she is ready, it is time, it is past time. Please find a young man in the church and convince him that he needs a wife, and then give him my daughter. No, he does not have to court her, your word, your judgement is good enough. Betroth them, give them to each other in covenant, and then let them learn, over the next few weeks or months, what being bound in covenant is all about. And then he may come for her, when he is ready or when he has a need, and take her to his house, to his bed.â€

:pink-shock: :o :( :cray-cray:

[nokidsmom]

While I took issue with much of this article, I was glad to finally see someone in the fundie world acknowledge that the issue of a low marriage rate is because it's almost impossible for guys to get past the several hour interrogation and subsequent carefully-monitored courtship. Can't be doing much for guys' self-esteem. Or girls, for that matter. Because their father won't approve a guy, they start thinking something is wrong with them.

Also, some guys aren't that well-spoken under pressure. What about fundie guys with anxiety? They'd never pass, yet many of them would be kind and caring husbands. I see why fundie guys go for fundie-lite/conservative mainstream girls. There's way less pressure involved.

This is one of the biggest issues I have the with whole Daddy-approved courtship. Aside from the girl not having much or any say in the matter, the next one is that there's a really big risk of a girl getting a guy who may not be the best husband because he was able to say all the right things to Daddy, meets all the things on Daddy's checklist. Even in fundie-land I do believe that that there are guys who can be good husbands but they have a lot of obstacles put in front of them. I have mentioned this before but I call it the "hedge of thorns" that they are expected to whack through. Not all guys are going to be well spoken in the face of pressure as mentioned above and there's also going to be a few that have enough self respect that they won't put themselves through it. Unfortunately the Daddys who think to put potential suitors through the third degree think they are totally right to do it and anyone who is worthy is going to do it, no questions asked.

I do think this is one of the big reasons why the Bodkinettes and older Maxwell girls are still single.

[ljohnson2006]

A courtship may as well be an arranged marriage. The fathers hold all control.

[docmom]

Better to never marry and be content with the single life than trapped in a fundy marriage from hell...

Unfortunately that can mean living under Daddy's protection until he dies and you're left alone with no skills and no idea how to think for yourself. Honestly for many of these women (as it was for many of our ancestors) it's a no-win situation.

[nokidsmom]

Unfortunately that can mean living under Daddy's protection until he dies and you're left alone with no skills and no idea how to think for yourself. Honestly for many of these women (as it was for many of our ancestors) it's a no-win situation.

Exactly. Even if a SAHD avoids some fundie marriage from hell, she's stuck under Daddy's roof for the rest of her days. Neither option sounds appealing at all but I guess there's some that will prefer it.