Mark Driscoll Asks Who's Afraid Of Pregnant Women

[debrand]

washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/wp/2013/12/03/whos-afraid-of-pregnant-women/

Although I like American football, I don't pay that much attention to any of the players so I must have missed the uproar that Mark describes over the birth of Philip Rivers' seventh child. I am not anti large families and in my ideal, perfect world, I would have adopted several more children, live on a large farm and have enough to comfortably provide for everyone. However, my ideal world does not exist and I understand that the human population needs to decrease.

In recent years, the birthrate in the United States has dropped lower than at any other time in the nation’s history. Seattle, San Francisco, and Washington, D.C., are on the forefront of this trend affecting other major cities and Western nations. Fewer than 20 percent of all households in these three cities have a child.

In my hometown of Seattle, there are cats, dogs, and children “in that order,†numerically speaking. In fact, there are 50 percent more cats than children. No wonder people now commonly refer to their pets as their “babies.

So? Not everyone should have a child. Children are not pets and anyone who compares kids to pets probably shouldn't have a child. Your pet doesn't need an education to eventually live without your support, can eat the same packaged dog/cat/bird food everyday, doesn't need new clothes and shoes every year...I could go on. Less people should have children(and probably pets) not just because of the world's population but because children are a huge responsibility that only someone that really wants kids should undertake.People who do not want children should not have children and we should support that very responsible decision.

While animals get the human treatment, humans are increasingly denigrated as animals—especially those humans that choose to have more than one or two kids.

I have four kids. No one has ever called me an animal, I promise. If someone called Mark an animal, it probably wasn't because of the number of children that he has.

He is upset because some people called parents breeders.

Pure evolutionary thinking that treats a human being as nothing more than a particular arrangement of cells and matter will inevitably lead to contempt for life that’s either active (genocide, abortion, and snarky comments that belittle a dad like Philip Rivers) or passive (selfishness, lack of empathy, isolation).

Not having a child does not mean that you have contempt for life. It doesn't even mean that you dislike kids. All being voluntarily childless means is that you don't want a child of your own. Accepting evolution as fact does not mean that you support genocide nor will that knowledge lead to genocide. Grouping other humans into "us" and "them" categories will lead to genocide because once you see humans as 'others' you can do anything to them. Snarky comments are not anywhere in the ball park of genocide. The fact that he seems to regard rude remarks on a footing with the slaughter of innocent humans tells me that he doesn't value human life very much.

[flojo]

In recent years, the birthrate in the United States has dropped lower than at any other time in the nation’s history. Seattle, San Francisco, and Washington, D.C., are on the forefront of this trend affecting other major cities and Western nations. Fewer than 20 percent of all households in these three cities have a child.

In my hometown of Seattle, there are cats, dogs, and children “in that order,†numerically speaking. In fact, there are 50 percent more cats than children. No wonder people now commonly refer to their pets as their “babies.

Don't most people with kids in the three above cities end up in the suburbs? Cost of living makes a difference, as does school systems (especially in DC)

[Rachel333]

Pure evolutionary thinking that treats a human being as nothing more than a particular arrangement of cells and matter will inevitably lead to contempt for life that’s either active (genocide, abortion, and snarky comments that belittle a dad like Philip Rivers) or passive (selfishness, lack of empathy, isolation).

Well, history has demonstrated pretty clearly that believing in a creator and an afterlife doesn't prevent genocide. Personally, I think realizing that this life is all there is has given me a greater appreciation for life. When I read about children being bombed to death in wars I don't believe that they're happy and better off now (though I also don't think they're being tortured for eternity because they were raised in the wrong religion, so I guess I can give him that). When I hear of a woman dying because she couldn't/didn't have an abortion, I don't think she's being rewarded in heaven, I think the one life she got was sadly ended too early. That doesn't mean I have no regard for fetuses, it means I value the life of the women carrying them, and I don't believe that even the most fervent anti-choicer would choose to save 10 embryos over one living child if it came down to it.

There are atheists with really horrible beliefs, who show a complete lack of empathy to families with sick, dying children because they say it's just evolution at work (I'm sure they'll change their tune once evolution no longer favors them). If they were to become Christians I don't think they would suddenly develop a sense of empathy, I think it would be more likely to be the type who say that sinners and non-Christians deserve every bad thing that happens to them. Similarly, the Christians who do genuinely value life wouldn't suddenly lose their compassion if they became atheists.

How has Mark Driscoll demonstrated that he values life? What "fruit" has he shown?

[lilah]

Don't most people with kids in the three above cities end up in the suburbs? Cost of living makes a difference, as does school systems (especially in DC)

Yup housing and poor options for (ebil public) school cause a lot of families to move out to the suburbs when they have kids.San Fransisco has the highest cost of living of anywhere in the US and one of the highest rent (maybe higher than NYC). DC's housing is also very expensive.

I worked for DCPS for two years and while they are slowly making improvements I did not feel confident sending my (hypothetical and unborn) children there.

[uber frau]

Why do the right-wing fundies bitch and moan so loudly about the way no one values children, when they are the first to call for ripping the guts out of any government programs proven to make children's lives better?

[August]

Why do the right-wing fundies bitch and moan so loudly about the way no one values children, when they are the first to call for ripping the guts out of any government programs proven to make children's lives better?

And having so many that it is impossible to care for and value each child individually?

[GolightlyGrrl]

Why do the right-wing fundies bitch and moan so loudly about the way no one values children, when they are the first to call for ripping the guts out of any government programs proven to make children's lives better?

Not too mention look up the Pearls and their form of child abuse to discipline their children, often look at their own children as chattel, not actual human beings, have sub-standard homeschooling methods, etc.

[dawbs]

This goes firmly into 'women can't win' territory.

Have a kid you can't afford? you're an evil welfare queen. Don't have kids you can't afford? heartless bitch who doesn't value maternity.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Ok, I admit that I know nothing about football, and had no idea who this guy Rivers was. Still, when I clicked on the links in Driscoll's article, I didn't see a bunch of anti-kid stuff. I saw some criticisms of Rivers himself as a player, a gif of him with a weird expression, and a comment along the lines of "are all his kids going to be weird like him?" Do these people have a problem with basic reading comprehension? There was only one comment that was a critique of family size.

The rant on birth rates would be more logical if he talked about state-wide or nation-wide trends. If you only look at an expensive urban city and don't include its suburbs then you aren't getting the whole picture. I'm sure downtown Toronto has tons of childless households as well - because that's who live in small condos. Dogs don't require their own bedroom, and you can have more than one cat in a small space. When I had one child in a downtown condo, we were different. When I got pregnant with #2, we looked for a home in the burbs. Living in a house in the city, in a decent area with decent schools, was beyond our means, so only the richest and poorest have kids (esp. more than one) in the city itself.

Sure, the term "breeders" is rude. Nobody's ever said it to me in real life. If' I'm going to get upset over every obnoxious thing that someone writes online, well, "breeders" can join a very long line.

So no, I'm not seeing any actual evidence that "fecundopbobia" is a thing in the United States.

[ems]

Genocide, abortion, and...snarky comments?? Yeah, totally not on the same level.

I agree with the basic sentiment that being "pro-life" is not just about not killing/aborting, but about a basic view of human life...as an Episcopalian, we talk about "respecting the dignity of every human being," the phrase that's used in the renewal of Baptismal covenants. But as far as doing that goes, Mark Driscoll has been a pretty big fail. I see much more contempt from him for those he doesn't like (esp. gays, women, "the effeminate") than I do towards large families purely on the basis of them being large families.

And since he brought humans vs. animals into the picture...as an animal lover, I'm willing to bet that MANY of those cats and dogs in Seattle are strays/feral. Animal lovers such as myself support spaying and neutering BECAUSE we love animals and see the suffering that comes with overpopulation.

[infooverload]

Just another example of a religious person trying to make every situation political and put their personal view on the matter. Also he has no right to way in on how many children a couple does or does not have. After all no one asked him why he stopped at 5. Basically I want to know when people will put family planning into the list of things people do not discuss in polite conversation. This topic just irks me to no end. As someone pointed out there is no winning. If you have one child it is all congratulations when is the next one coming along. I always respond children are not salt and pepper shakers they do not have to be in pairs. Also his decision to mention the protest for womens rights he really missed why they were protesting. Then again what would I expect from a man who most of the time makes statements that make me in my head go he is :cray-cray:. His church does objectify women by calling them "submissive" to men, he makes them an accessory to a man. By doing so he indcates they are not deserving of their own automany and power.

[Burris]

Oh, wow! Mark Driscoll seriously listed those three activities in such a way as to suggest they are in any way comparable to one another: Attempting to utterly destroy an entire population based on heritage or lineage and…smart-ass comments about someone having a large family? The former is evidence for a contempt of life, but the latter is not.

Ask anyone who looks or moves in any way remotely different from those around him or her and that person will describe hearing comments from the peanut gallery – including inappropriate remarks. That happens to anyone and everyone who fails to fit the average, including those with several children beyond the average and those who use a wheelchair and those who wear shiny clothes and those who weigh more or less than average and those with thick glasses and those with exceptionally long hair and so on and so on.

Since when are rude comments comparable to genocide? It’s no wonder Driscoll and others like him lack all perspective on what actually constitutes persecution when one of them can make the following comment without facing backlash from people in his own social circle: “Pure evolutionary thinking that treats a human being as nothing more than a particular arrangement of cells and matter will inevitably lead to contempt for life that’s either active (genocide, abortion, and snarky comments that belittle a dad like Philip Rivers)…â€

(And this isn’t even taking into account the other stupid things about Driscoll’s statement, such as his mention of “evolutionary thinking.â€)

People made uncomplimentary comments about a sports figure? That cannot be true. That has never happened before in the history of sports coverage based on any other characteristic (including race) than the number of children a player has. This is unprecedented! No wonder Driscoll is worried. It’s a small step from this to murdering everyone who either plays or watches football.

[galaxy]

I would have loved to have 3+ kids and have started having kids in my mid 20s. But then my husband and I would almost certainly be on government assistance of some sort, and so then these fundies would judge me anyway. It's very expensive to have kids in DC, and it's expensive in the suburbs, and expensive even into the far-flung suburbs/exurbs. We have one of the highest costs of housing in the country and I would suspect that Seattle and San Francisco are much the same way.

So I'd like to know what Mark Driscoll is doing to help make housing more affordable, and to increase the quality of urban schools, and to make daycare affordable for everyone, and to encourage longer parental leaves for new parents, and anything else that would make having kids, and the amount of kids if you want a larger family, an individual decision instead of an unaffordable luxury.

[Trynn]

Not sure about Seattle, but I know San Fran has a high cost of living.

Nice place to visit, though.

[slh12280]

Oh and mothers that are raising their children without a partner are put in a catch 22. If they work then they are abandoning their children but if they stay home and take welfare then they are "welfare queens." And who values women here???

[uber frau]

Here's a handy questionnaire for single mothers:

A. Were you married to your child's biological father? If no, go to question B. If yes, go to question C.

B. Were you raped? If no, it's your own fault you got pregnant. You should have keep your legs closed. If yes, it's your fault for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

C. Did your husband desert you? If yes, you shouldn't have been so unpleasant that he wanted to leave. Your fault. If no, go question D.

D. Did you leave your husband? You chose to walk away. Totally your fault and you're lucky we don't stone you. If no, go to question E.

E. Did your husband die?( it's probably your fault. Are you sure you didn't send him to an early demise?) I you grovel hard enough, we might find enough dented tins of soup and baked beans to keep you fed for 6 months. You'd better remarry as quickly as possible.

[RosyDaisy]

Ok, I have to chime in on this one. I personally know Phillip Rivers. He is from my hometown. He is not fundie and neither are his parents. He and his wife are Catholic. I assume like many Catholics, BC is out of the question. Even if they weren't Catholic, there's nothing wrong with have a big family. He makes more than enough money to support his wife and children and contribute to charities. The fact that Mark Driscoll has mentioned him on his blog is an insult. Phillip is a good man and is well liked here.

[BalconySmoker]

"After all no one asked him why he stopped at 5"

Actually, he has been asked why before (or at least his wife has been). They didn't "stop at five". They've tried for more, and it's ended in miscarriage. I recall reading an article once where his wife talked about it. I'm assuming they would have had quite a few more kids if it was possible.

[JesusFightClub]

We've been getting articles over here in the likes of the Daily Mail about this perceived fear and hatred of all pregnant women, I can honestly say it seems like a load of old bollocks.

The kind of woman who does get shit for being pregnant is exactly the kind of woman the DM and Driscoll are both against - on benefits, kids have different dads, doesn't work. Nobody says that kind of woman should have the freedom to make her own choices, that family is a great thing, that we need more kids to replace the older generation, x and y. No, she's a dirty slag squirting out kids for extra money and a bigger council flat. I do not see Driscoll rushing to her defence.

They make this weird claim that middle-class, married, white women somehow get a lot of flak for having babies, which is borne out precisely nowhere. I expect that there are some people giving the sports guy cheek, but that's for being a sports guy - they all get insulted about something, providing proof that he shags his wife a lot is just one of the many things he could potentially be insulted for. There aren't, however, howling mobs chasing after women for having more than one kid, and nor is there widespread persecution and abuse of such women. It's a made-up problem.

[permanentproblem]

I was recently reading the blog of a woman with four kids. I think it was called My Heart Is at Home. Anyway, she made a post typical of these kinds of families, whining that strangers make comments such as "you've got your hands full" and taking it to mean she should kill off all but two of her children. I know a lot of bloggers discussed on here say the same kinds of things, like Zsu and Sunshine Mary, but I can't even bring myself to read their blogs. They are just too depressing with their constant hatefulness. Anyway, I made a comment that I have probably gotten just as many derogatory remarks for not having any kids. Fundamentalists like to think they are always under attack from the outside world for their family size, but it's just fine to judge others for not having any kids or only one or two. Families with ten or twelve kids probably do fall under some unwarranted scrutiny, but sometimes "you've got your hands full" just means..."you've got your hands full". Just an acknowledgement that looking after several at once in a public setting is a big job. Not "kids are a nuisance and a waste of space." With all their complaining about freedom of speech and having to watch what they say for fear of offending someone, maybe someone should make some badges like the "It's Okay To Tell Me Merry Christmas" ones..."It's Okay To Say I've Got My Hands Full."

[formergothardite]

I have two children and get the occasional "You have your hands full." It is usually when I actually am a little overwhelmed and they aren't meaning I should not have had a kid.

[Hane]

Geez, people are prickly these days. ;) Once I mentioned to a colleague that I had only one child. "Just the one?" she asked. "Sorry," I answered,"I'll nip out and have a few more right quick!" I was in my 40s at the time, and I didn't take offense because she was, too--and only had one kid herself!

[roddma]

Ok, I have to chime in on this one. I personally know Phillip Rivers. He is from my hometown. He is not fundie and neither are his parents. He and his wife are Catholic. I assume like many Catholics, BC is out of the question. Even if they weren't Catholic, there's nothing wrong with have a big family. He makes more than enough money to support his wife and children and contribute to charities. The fact that Mark Driscoll has mentioned him on his blog is an insult. Phillip is a good man and is well liked here.

While there is nothing wrong with large families, it is wrong putting them on a pedestal. A larger family does not make you better. A pro-sports figure is constantly on the road. That leaves the wife taking care of the children constantly. You wonder if these women actually want this many children. I gather a majority of large families are religious.

Anyway, I made a comment that I have probably gotten just as many derogatory remarks for not having any kids. Fundamentalists like to think they are always under attack from the outside world for their family size, but it's just fine to judge others for not having any kids or only one or two.

Some parents of the large broods seem to like the attention whether negative or positive. I too don't understand why criticism is only allowed one way. I read numerous complaints on the 'you got your hands full' and 'are they all yours' type thing. I think people don't mean any harm from them. What did these people like Zsu Zsu expect?