What is Vision Forum and the Christian Patriarchy?

[Guest Anonymous]

Hi, I'm new here, and have been a fan of you for a long time. I don't exactly understand how Vision Forum/Christian Patriarchy believes in.

What does Vision Forum believe in? I read they are a mishmash of Patriarchal Calvinism and Familial Idolatry.

I read that their daughters are taught to be submissive and virginal and behave like a Pollyanna/Ingenue

Their wives, from what I heard, behave in ways that remind me of the stereotypical Mammy or Angel of the House

Yet I hear that the Botkin sisters can tagalong with their brothers on their journeys, I don't get it? what is their ideal society? are their women suppose to be indoorsy housefraus or what?

I have a pretty good idea of their ideal Man, which is very much homoerotic and androcentric and basically 'Bromantic'

They claim to follow the bible correctly (like that's been never said before :roll: ) but they don't seem to practice what they teach quite very often.

And I know that Dougie (is a tool) is a bit of a subtle racist and classist.

[debrand]

They are very strange and have an oddly romantic view of history and gender. For example, they LOVE Jane Austen despite the fact that the writer was very snarky about marriage during her time period. They read her books and only see the pretty dresses, teas and manners.

Women are supposed to be beautiful, adoring and very lady like. Men are supposed to be ultra manly but polite heroes out of romance stories.

Doug Philips likes to dress up and go on pretend manly trips. For instance, he and a group of men(no women for goodness sake) traveled down the Amazon in a very nice ship. They acted as if they were cutting their way through the jungle with machetes. They even went on an Anaconda hunt. No, I'm not joking.

They really like pretend situations in which they can prove their manliness. None of them serve in the military or do anything remotely dangerous.

[Buzzard]

Doug Phillips is a tool will never pass up the opportunity to show that men are manly. This pic is from the movie awards (streaming now). Because nothing says "danger" like a man in a hard hat rappelling from a stage with safety equipment. :dance:

[GiggleOfGirls]

The men love going on "sweaty, manly romps" :dance:

[twin2]

I don't exactly understand how Vision Forum/Christian Patriarchy believes in.

That VFs way of Christianity is the only way. The also believe that the US was founded as a Christian nation and strive to restore us to that. They re-write history to put a "good Christian spin" on everything. D-day was the providence of God, don't ya know. They want the government out of their business, unless its abortion, gay marriage, or declaring a national religion. Dougie likens himself as a Constitutional scholar, and of course interprets the constitution as a christian doctrine. He claims to be a libertarian. I don't think he knows what that word means.

What does Vision Forum believe in? I read they are a mishmash of Patriarchal Calvinism and Familial Idolatry.

Though Vision Forum doesn't officially identify with a given denomination, it is definitely Calvinistic in thought. It is definitely patriarchal, very patriarchal. It spends much time and effort trying to press the "christian doctrine" of "women and children first." Gender roles are very well defined. They segregate the toys they sell by gender. Girls gets dolls, sewing kits and window gardens. Boys get guns, survival gear and chemistry sets (grrrrrrrrrrrr). The man is the head of the household. The women is there to push out as many blessings as possible and raise them.

I read that their daughters are taught to be submissive and virginal and behave like a Pollyanna/Ingenue

Their wives, from what I heard, behave in ways that remind me of the stereotypical Mammy or Angel of the House

Definitely. Girls are raised to be girly girls (see above). Vision Forum activities that cater towards women focus around Edwardian teas. Courtship is a must and initiated by the guy to the girls father. No kissing before the vows, though I think they can actually touch once engaged. There is always a "transfer of authority" at the wedding ceremony. Once married the women submit the the man.

Yet I hear that the Botkin sisters can tagalong with their brothers on their journeys, I don't get it? what is their ideal society? are their women suppose to be indoorsy housefraus or what?

One way in which VF differentiates from the other fundies, is that they don't seem to be against socialization. Always in groups, but it is allowed and encouraged with other like minded folks (unlike the Maxwells). However, no one is really trusted. There are stories about the Botkin sisters having their brothers stand outside the entrance to the restroom, guarding it. Although there are "man only" outings in VF called "hazardous journeys" (or as the rest of the world calls them camping trips), there are a lot of outings done for families (Titanic Extravaganza, WWII March Around Europe). However even at these gender roles are defined. Men play war. Woman have tea parties. I don't think they are against woman being "outdoorsy" as long as it is in a "chop the head of the chicken for dinner and do the gardening" and not a "lets go spelunking" kind of way.

I have a pretty good idea of their ideal Man, which is very much homoerotic and androcentric and basically 'Bromantic'

The ideal vision forum prince, I don't know. Dougie seems fond of Peter Bradrick and that guy looks like a sippy cup.

They claim to follow the bible correctly (like that's been never said before :roll: ) but they don't seem to practice what they teach quite very often

.

Like all fundies, they follow what they want and ignore what they don't like.

And I know that Dougie (is a tool) is a bit of a subtle racist and classist.

Dougie is a classist to the nth degree. During the entire Titanic Extravaganza much ado was made about the "lies" about first-class passengers being given special privileges. It was basically a "don't knock on us first class folks". Racism, I suspect he is, but is good at hiding it.

[twin2]

Doug Phillips is a tool will never pass up the opportunity to show that men are manly. This pic is from the movie awards (streaming now). Because nothing says "danger" like a man in a hard hat rappelling from a stage with safety equipment. :dance:

There is so an LOLDOUG in there. I just need to find it.

[Curious]

There is so an LOLDOUG in there. I just need to find it.

The newest member of the Red Hat Ladies (red hat club? not exactly sure what they are called)

[Buzzard]

[twin2]

In my efforts to LOL that pic up. I came across the VF post recruit manly men for the Amazon trip. Think it really helps answer some more of the OPs questions:

This is not a trip for women. This is an expedition for men and with men. For the better part of a week, our team will be living on a boat and in the Rainforest in the heart of Amazonia. We will debate, dialogue, explore, and investigate. We will build relationships like men and emphasize the importance of fathers and sons working together for the glory of God.

Specifically, this is an expedition for the friends of Doug Phillips and Vision Forum Ministries who: A) want to experience a once-in-a-lifetime manly adventure; B) want to learn more about the great battles with environmental pantheism from the epicenter of the fight; C) want to investigate mysteries of the ancient world and observe exotic and strange creatures, evaluating them from a distinctively Creationist perspective; and D) want to bless Vision Forum Ministries by helping us advance our Space Project film.

God this fucker is a tool!

[thoughtful]

There is so an LOLDOUG in there. I just need to find it.

I took a crack at it:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24&p=489526#p489526

:D

[formergothardite]

In my efforts to LOL that pic up. I came across the VF post recruit manly men for the Amazon trip. Think it really helps answer some more of the OPs questions:

God this fucker is a tool!

So really wants men to pay money to spend time with him and then he can take all the extra and spend it on his little projects.

[Soldier of the One]

Not only is VF socially 'androcentric' but also theologically. And their theology filters into everything else. They believe that every part of the Christian Godhead (i.e. the Trinity) is masculine. Most mainstream Christian theologians (correct me if I am wrong, Christians!) would at least consider the Holy Spirit neutral at best or even explicitly feminine. They also have an odd theological belief that the Son is in continual submission to the Father, while other Christian theologians teach that the Son was in submission to the Father only when in the flesh and that the Trinity is composed of three equal aspects of God.

This might seem like theological nitpicking but it's relevant because it totally filters down into their perception and reconstruction of the patriarchal family: hence, by extension, the Father has complete authority over his children and wife, rather than being in partnership with the wife (as the Holy Spirit could be seen as being in partnership with the Father in mainstream Christian theology). They write on their Ministries website that the father-son relationship is paralleled in the Godhead, in a near mystical fashion. This only informs their 'idolatrous' worship of the family and the father's role therein.

Unsurprisingly, VF Ministries organizes activities for fathers and sons (to affirm this metaphysical model), for fathers and daughters (to instill submissive virtues in the young women and to bolster the authority of the father), for mothers and daughters (so that daughters learn to emulate their virtuous mothers and accept 'transfer of authority') but never mothers and sons. Do mothers and sons need no particular bonding? Apparently, for VF, no. My theory is that women have no intrinsic value according to VF theology and that in their view, the mother-son relationship is fraught with tension because of issues of authority: on the one hand, the mother has authority over her (young) son but on the other hand, this is mitigated by the fact that any male has inherent authority over any female under patriarchy. So that relationship is not fostered.

It's all pretty bizarre to me.

[yewchapel]

Not only is VF socially 'androcentric' but also theologically. And their theology filters into everything else. They believe that every part of the Christian Godhead (i.e. the Trinity) is masculine. Most mainstream Christian theologians (correct me if I am wrong, Christians!) would at least consider the Holy Spirit neutral at best or even explicitly feminine. They also have an odd theological belief that the Son is in continual submission to the Father, while other Christian theologians teach that the Son was in submission to the Father only when in the flesh and that the Trinity is composed of three equal aspects of God.

This might seem like theological nitpicking but it's relevant because it totally filters down into their perception and reconstruction of the patriarchal family: hence, by extension, the Father has complete authority over his children and wife, rather than being in partnership with the wife (as the Holy Spirit could be seen as being in partnership with the Father in mainstream Christian theology). They write on their Ministries website that the father-son relationship is paralleled in the Godhead, in a near mystical fashion. This only informs their 'idolatrous' worship of the family and the father's role therein.

Unsurprisingly, VF Ministries organizes activities for fathers and sons (to affirm this metaphysical model), for fathers and daughters (to instill submissive virtues in the young women and to bolster the authority of the father), for mothers and daughters (so that daughters learn to emulate their virtuous mothers and accept 'transfer of authority') but never mothers and sons. Do mothers and sons need no particular bonding? Apparently, for VF, no. My theory is that women have no intrinsic value according to VF theology and that in their view, the mother-son relationship is fraught with tension because of issues of authority: on the one hand, the mother has authority over her (young) son but on the other hand, this is mitigated by the fact that any male has inherent authority over any female under patriarchy. So that relationship is not fostered.

It's all pretty bizarre to me.

Oh! I've heard that thing about the Son being continually submissive to the Father before, bizarrely enough here in the UK at a Christian Union (university Christian society, conservative evangelical in ethos) weekend away. It was used as an argument for women submitting to their husbands (because women are like Jesus...? I have no idea). I agree that this is terrible theology and that VF's treatment of the family and fatherhood is definitely idolatrous.

[Soldier of the One]

I might be wrong here... but the Son submitting by the Father might be used in most cases to justify female submission to husbands. And the comparison is all kinds of wrong: are women then like Jesus? Or are they the Bride of Christ? Make up your mind here, patriarchal theologians!

[Buzzard]

Not only is VF socially 'androcentric' but also theologically. And their theology filters into everything else. They believe that every part of the Christian Godhead (i.e. the Trinity) is masculine. Most mainstream Christian theologians (correct me if I am wrong, Christians!) would at least consider the Holy Spirit neutral at best or even explicitly feminine. They also have an odd theological belief that the Son is in continual submission to the Father, while other Christian theologians teach that the Son was in submission to the Father only when in the flesh and that the Trinity is composed of three equal aspects of God.

This might seem like theological nitpicking but it's relevant because it totally filters down into their perception and reconstruction of the patriarchal family: hence, by extension, the Father has complete authority over his children and wife, rather than being in partnership with the wife (as the Holy Spirit could be seen as being in partnership with the Father in mainstream Christian theology). They write on their Ministries website that the father-son relationship is paralleled in the Godhead, in a near mystical fashion. This only informs their 'idolatrous' worship of the family and the father's role therein.

Unsurprisingly, VF Ministries organizes activities for fathers and sons (to affirm this metaphysical model), for fathers and daughters (to instill submissive virtues in the young women and to bolster the authority of the father), for mothers and daughters (so that daughters learn to emulate their virtuous mothers and accept 'transfer of authority') but never mothers and sons. Do mothers and sons need no particular bonding? Apparently, for VF, no. My theory is that women have no intrinsic value according to VF theology and that in their view, the mother-son relationship is fraught with tension because of issues of authority: on the one hand, the mother has authority over her (young) son but on the other hand, this is mitigated by the fact that any male has inherent authority over any female under patriarchy. So that relationship is not fostered.

It's all pretty bizarre to me.

It occurs to me that many may have no idea what we're talking about when we say androcentric or patriarchal. Sure, they could google... but I think it would be helpful to have all of those terms defined in the context of how we discuss them here on FJ. Do you think you'd be willing (or anyone else) to start a thread in SOTDRT with definitions?

[Soldier of the One]

Wow, Buzzard... am not sure if I'm the best person but I am willing to give it a shot. Just don't expect something scientific from me in the spur of the moment. I'd welcome a peer review! :)

Edited to add: I've written the post and it's up now in the SOTDRT forum.

I'm adding my bit from here on Trinity to it.

[Buzzard]

I think thats perfect! Theres one other term that pops up a lot here that sounds "academic" but its slipping my mind at the moment!

[iloveevolution]

These vision forum types really seem to glorify the past - do they really think in the past most people were worried about tea parties and reading the Bible instead of, you know, not dying of typhus or scarlet fever? It's like they think America was a perfect, orderly, Biblical-values oriented society at some undetermined point in the past

[lilith]

VF is Christian patriarchy for the middle classes, all wrapped up in a pretty dress.

The men go on trips and pretend they are 19th century gentlemen explorers of the leisure class, while the women sew bad period dresses and take tea.

They put on teas with Michelle Duggar and even market a DVD of it - I always wonder how the Arkansas yokel Duggars fit with their sense of faux gentility. I guess pushing out 19 kids and gazing adoringly at your headship at every opportunity gets you forgiven lot.

Oh, and VF sell a lot of stuff, mainly gender appropriate toys, books and DVDs, trips with Dougie and seminars. It's a lifestyle that you can buy into off the rack if you have enough cash to give Doug.

The sad thing is that there are many low income VF families with eleventy kids, like Kim and Perry from LiaS who spend money they can't afford trying to live the lifestyle Dougie demands while their kids do without and are stacked four or five high on Costco shelving.

[Smooth Beans]

I hope I'm not derailing here, but how did the whole "Doug Phillips is a tool" thing get started? I mean, he is obviously a tool to the nth degree, but why the frequent mentions of his toolness?

[Buzzard]

I hope I'm not derailing here, but how did the whole "Doug Phillips is a tool" thing get started? I mean, he is obviously a tool to the nth degree, but why the frequent mentions of his toolness?

Google is a powerful tool. It is very important to many of us that google make appropriate suggestions to those who may be researching a particular person or subject, rather than the propaganda and positive bullshit they pay to have as a top result. Thus, the campaign. It has the dual result of informing people that he doesnt fart rainbows, and leading searchers back to us to learn the truth about his toolishness.

[happy atheist]

There is a summary up for Doug now in the Who's Who subforum. It has a nice explanation.

[Mary C Doates]

There is a summary up for Doug now in the Who's Who subforum. It has a nice explanation.

This is an understatement--the summary is a FJ masterpiece. Twin2 did a fantastic job summarizing the Doug Philips (who is a tool) Phenomenon.

[Minerva]

There is so an LOLDOUG in there. I just need to find it.

Doug Phillips is a tool who shows off his crotch at every opportunity.

[life in perspective]

They are very strange and have an oddly romantic view of history and gender. For example, they LOVE Jane Austen despite the fact that the writer was very snarky about marriage during her time period. They read her books and only see the pretty dresses, teas and manners.

I would love to see the look on their faces if they read some of the "sequels" that have been written to Pride and Prejudice... :oops: