Is the Catholic Church feminist?

[Boogalou]

Hahahahahahaha.... no. This woman (http://www.ncregister.com/blog/what-is- ... c-feminist) is delusional if she honestly believes the following:

So what makes me a feminist? Some would say that all faithful Catholics are feminists, because the Church is the most pro-woman organization around: The Church honors and values the particular gifts of women, and demands that men treat women with dignity and even a little bit of fear. John Paul II famously called himself a “feminist popeâ€; and in practical terms, the Church has probably done more for the physical well-being of women around the world than any other charitable organization.

I would never, in a million years, claim that the Catholic Church is the most "pro-woman" organisation around, I would not even claim it is pro-woman. I really don't understand how someone can write an entire article on this and have not one single negative thing to say about the Catholic Church relegating women as second class citizens.

[xDreamerx]

I believe there are Catholic feminists, (Catholics for Choice, womenpriests.org) but I would never call the Church feminist. The institutionalized church is antifeminist.

[emmiedahl]

Under JP, it was moving toward being a very liberal and woman-friendly Church. Under Benedict, it is moving backward.

In my experience, Catholic Churches are lovely and accepting on a personal level, but at some point they will need to look at their dogma and make big changes on an organizational level.

[deelaem]

Not just no, but HELL no!

[xDreamerx]

Under JP, it was moving toward being a very liberal and woman-friendly Church. Under Benedict, it is moving backward.

In my experience, Catholic Churches are lovely and accepting on a personal level, but at some point they will need to look at their dogma and make big changes on an organizational level.

Exactly. Most I know just ignore and don't bother with the crap they don't agree with. I have some openly gay friends who are Catholics. Their priests know it and talk to them about it (as friends, not trying to "fix" them). He just told my friend he could never marry her and her partner because of the obvious flack. I would say the most liberal Pope thus far was John XXIII, but that's just my opinion. The thing is, the College of Cardinals has been increasingly populated by conservatives so changes are it won't get better after Benedict. I think they should lower the minimum age requirement. The Church needs youth to survive.

[medievalist1980]

Actually, JPII wanted women back in the kitchen. He was a big fan of separate spheres and all that. I haven't paid attn to benedict on women because i am always side-tracked by his shoes.

[valsa]

Ha! No. No, it's not.

[xDreamerx]

Actually, JPII wanted women back in the kitchen. He was a big fan of separate spheres and all that. I haven't paid attn to benedict on women because i am always side-tracked by his shoes.

Well, I didn't mean towards women. I meant about other things like race and racial integration. He helped people fleeing the Holocaust. I don't think he was as strict about gender roles and the family as other Popes. I didn't say he was a bona fide liberal, I just said he was liberal for a Pope.

[Lainey]

*dies laughing*

No.

[valsa]

I didn't say he was a bona fide liberal, I just said he was liberal for a Pope.

Considering that I have serious doubts about the epidemic child molesting within the church not being known by the higher-ups (including the Pope), it makes me twitchy to see any "liberal" label used to described JP.

[xDreamerx]

Considering that I have serious doubts about the epidemic child molesting within the church not being known by the higher-ups (including the Pope), it makes me twitchy to see any "liberal" label used to described JP.

I wasn't referring to JPII. I said John XXIII was my favourite and then everyone went back to JP II, but I was referring to John. Sorry perhaps a miscommunication. I think the child molestation thing was awful and probably well known. Not trying to make that seem alright in any way but we were talking about the politics of individual Popes so I gave my opinion.

[Patsy]

There are tons of people within the church who are feminist, but they are that way in spite of the higher-ups, and they can't do too much with it. A bit, yeah, but the rest is highly controlled and leashed in.

I guess you can see anything as feminist in relation to something else, though that's not what the author seems to be doing.

[duplessis3]

How does JP=John 23rd?

JPII was the one making the church more conservative - there are a lot of people that think JPI was murdered because he was liberal.

[Boogalou]

There are tons of people within the church who are feminist, but they are that way in spite of the higher-ups, and they can't do too much with it. A bit, yeah, but the rest is highly controlled and leashed in.

I guess you can see anything as feminist in relation to something else, though that's not what the author seems to be doing.

Yes, this. I went to Catholic School for 12 years and I don't really get how so many people could hold so many views contrary to the Church's teachings and not view something wrong with that. Although, this is coming from someone who disagreed with the Church and still went to their schools. You would think though that when women are barred from the highest positions of power you would automatically assume they are NOT feminist, but whatever.

[Patsy]

Yes, this. I went to Catholic School for 12 years and I don't really get how so many people could hold so many views contrary to the Church's teachings and not view something wrong with that. Although, this is coming from someone who disagreed with the Church and still went to their schools. You would think though that when women are barred from the highest positions of power you would automatically assume they are NOT feminist, but whatever.

YES. I know a LOT of FANTASTIC people within the church who are doing amazing things and take strength from their deep spiritual beliefs, and they network with other Catholics who are also pretty great. So I have no doubt that there are, also elsewhere, lots of awesome people in the church, and people who aren't that awesome but seem so in relation to the higher-ups' attitudes. There must be something about the culture that makes people work against it, or something in the framework that plants a seed of good, because so many people grow up and work under that shitty headship, and yet do so much good. I think it also has a lot to do with the fact that there are a huge number of Catholics, obviously they're not all going to be in constant communication with the way the Pope sees things. Unfortunately I see a lot more reigning-in of differences (even ones that should not be doctrinally important) happening, so the higher-ups, on top of their shitty attitudes and doctrines, are trying to crush the rest of the good that sprouts in it.

I will also say that I know fantastic people who WERE in the church and left because they realised they really couldn't reconcile their lives or their beliefs with the church - whereas, for the rest, I think the culture and traditions and connections are enough to keep them in, even if they consciously realise that so much of what they do is NOT in line with the people who decree that they are in charge.

And, for a slightly different perspective: my father simply says 'The Pope is not a Catholic'. He believes in the church and that the church is the PEOPLE, not the leaders - even if a major part of the tradition is that the leaders are super important. Nuns distributing condoms in Africa are Catholic, excommunicated people who work with drug-addicted mothers and give them assistence whether or not they're ever going to change are Catholic, as far as he's concerned.

(Guess what religion my parents devoutly followed when I was born.)

[xDreamerx]

Exactly. The social gospel should be the spirit of every faith. OT, but not has anyone read the Feminist Companion to the Bibles series (or parts of it)?

[Patsy]

Have e-book in my favourites list, but I've still never got around to it :( You've reminded me, though!

[Hane]

JPII was the one making the church more conservative - there are a lot of people that think JPI was murdered because he was liberal.

And I'm among them. (There was virtually NO investigation of his untimely death, and the hierarchy was astoundingly closemouthed about the incident.) As an archbishop, he was leaning strongly toward OK-ing the Pill, because, as a young man, he saw what poverty and large families could do to women's lives.

[valsa]

There must be something about the culture that makes people work against it, or something in the framework that plants a seed of good, because so many people grow up and work under that shitty headship, and yet do so much good.

That could be said of any religion/culture, so I think it's more a testament to human beings' innate desire to do good, rather than any inherent positive of the Church itself.

[xDreamerx]

Have e-book in my favourites list, but I've still never got around to it :( You've reminded me, though!

It's really really good. I've read some of them but not all. Mostly Song of Songs as I wrote a paper on it, but very good. We are talking Brenner right?

[alphaeta08]

I was raised Catholic, so obviously, I was never taught anything about what the Church actually teaches. The more ignorant people are, the happier they are to just go along with it and have their own views on things. There ARE a lot of great people in individual churches; I loved every priest we had growing up. But it's like, if you're not going to believe everything and "do" Catholicism 100%, why bother? People really need to do a little googling, find out the creepy shit they're supposed to believe, and get their names off the (theoretical) list so the Church can't brag about their ten bajillion members. I know it's not possible to officially defect anymore, and once you're baptized they "count" you forever, so that's why it's important that parents not feel like they have to trap their kids if they're not 100% on board with the religion.

As for the topic at hand... fuck no. They reeeeally think they are, but no. :lol:

[fundyfunland]

I was raised Catholic, so obviously, I was never taught anything about what the Church actually teaches. The more ignorant people are, the happier they are to just go along with it and have their own views on things. There ARE a lot of great people in individual churches; I loved every priest we had growing up. But it's like, if you're not going to believe everything and "do" Catholicism 100%, why bother? People really need to do a little googling, find out the creepy shit they're supposed to believe, and get their names off the (theoretical) list so the Church can't brag about their ten bajillion members. I know it's not possible to officially defect anymore, and once you're baptized they "count" you forever, so that's why it's important that parents not feel like they have to trap their kids if they're not 100% on board with the religion.

As for the topic at hand... fuck no. They reeeeally think they are, but no. :lol:

Seriously? I didnt' know that there's no way to officially remove one's name from the Church's membership roll. That's crazy! Sounds like what ex-mormons have to go through to get there names off church membership rolls. I was baptize, decided not to confirm, and have dreamed at times of getting my name removed from the registry. Ultimately it's a part of my history, so I don't think I will.

[mirele]

Under JP, it was moving toward being a very liberal and woman-friendly Church. Under Benedict, it is moving backward.

In my experience, Catholic Churches are lovely and accepting on a personal level, but at some point they will need to look at their dogma and make big changes on an organizational level.

Under John Paul II? I don't think so. He's the guy who said that only men could be priests and it was not something that could ever be changed.

Let me be clear: I have no desire to be a priest. (I don't think people who are agnostics meet the first qualification, i.e., belief.) But I object strenuously to this kind of discrimination, particularly since in the Catholic church's dogma, the priest stands as "alter Christi" (i.e. in the place of Christ) in the sacrifice of the mass. The whole notion that only men can do that--all it does is deify the male sex. As Mary Daly said, "If God is male, then the male is God."

I'd also note that John Paul II did nothing for the victims of crimes against priests except attempt to hide those crimes. The whole notion that he should be some sort of "saint" boggles my mind. It makes less sense than making a saint out of a girl who died after resisting a rape attempt (Maria Goretti). But hey, I'm agnostic, take what I say with a shaker full of salt.

[finleeport]

Um, since when has the Catholic Church ever been pro-woman? with all its witch-burnings and forcing women into a life of a nun not by choice and etc. etc.

Where did this CC being pro-woman idea sprang from?

[Patsy]

Excommunication:

http://www.atheistactivist.org/Defect.html