Article on "Criminalizing" Pregnancy

[Bethella]

This is an interesting article on how the concept of personhood is being used to criminalize pregnancy in the US. I keep wondering when some of the fundies will realize that the personhood laws they are advocating could be used against them. There are any number of fundy women who refuse medical treatment for their pregnancies, insisting on homebirths and/or VBACs. How will they react if they are treated like the women in this report? Two specifically mentioned in the article

Laura Pemberton wanted to have a vaginal birth after having had a previous c-section, despite the advice of her doctors. She was in labor at her house, when her doctors sought a court order and dispatched the sheriff to forcibly bring her to the hospital. After an emergency hearing in which she had no legal representation, she was forced to undergo the surgery.

Melissa Rowland gave birth to twins, but one of them was stillborn. She was arrested on charges of criminal homicide, based on the claim that she had caused the stillbirth by refusing to have a c-section two weeks earlier.

I know fundies aren't known for their logic, but it really boggles my mind that hey don't see this coming. Or do they just not care so long as it "saves the baybees"?

feministing.com/2013/01/17/new-report-shows-how-the-principle-of-personhood-is-already-criminalizing-pregnancy-in-the-us/

[GiggleOfGirls]

When I was still fundy-lite, a friend painstakingly explained the connection between childbirth choices and abortion choices. As an educated and low-risk home-birther, her explanations forever changed how I viewed the abortion issue. So, I do think that some fundies could be reasonable about the issue if it was presented to them in just the right way.

[veron1que]

That's disturbing. I'm sorry, no one should be forced to have a surgery. I don't care if doctors think the baby will die, no one should be forced to have a medical procedure done to their body. Pregnancy does not always result in a viable child, I don't understand why pro-lifers and "personhood" advocates think that just because an egg is fertilized, that a fetus must be saved by any means.

[Bloo]

Plenty of women have successful VBACs anyway. If anything, I tend to think that American doctors are too cesarean-happy.

[Rosa]

Fundie women don't see their freedom and other reproductive freedoms as the same at all, either because they think bad things only happen to bad people, or because a lot of them feel like the entire world is trying to persecute Christians so they have to stay off the radar already (never go to doctors! never get a birth certificate!).

It's two separate camps who happen to be united on a single issue (criminalizing abortion).

[RosyDaisy]

I agree, this is disturbing indeed. Having said that, I think I would have chosen a C-section over home birth. But that would be my choice, and I respect the right of other women to choose differently.

[Feberin]

I agree, this is disturbing indeed. Having said that, I think I would have chosen a C-section over home birth. But that would be my choice, and I respect the right of other women to choose differently.

That's how I feel on this one. I think charging the woman with homicide seems a little much too. While she might have made poor choices that resulted in the death of her child I would think having lost this child would be punishment enough for her.

[Wandering]

I agree, this is disturbing indeed. Having said that, I think I would have chosen a C-section over home birth. But that would be my choice, and I respect the right of other women to choose differently.

Agreed. It's the same thing in regards to abortion, I may never feel that it would be the right choice for me, but I respect the rights of other women to have one and do as they see fit.

[Slt]

Plenty of women have successful VBACs anyway. If anything, I tend to think that American doctors are too cesarean-happy.

There seems to be more to the story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemberton_ ... nal_Center

He incision was a vertical one, and her telling her doc was tantamount to her saying she was going to commit suicide in their eyes. The chance of uterine rupture with trying for a vbac (a home vbac, at that) is high. I am not taking a moral/ethical stance on this, because as a nurse, I just don't know. I see both sides, but it is more than a simple vbac.

Eta here is another link to her speaking about the experience. Around 2 minutes, it seems that she says that she was pregnant again at 25 weeks less than a year after giving birth to the child that required an inverted-t uterine incision- even with traditional, horizontal uterine incisions doctors prefer that you wait at least a year to TTC again- with her type, they often prefer longer to give the uterus a chance to heal.

[Slt]

Another thing- Laura Pemberton, the lady who was attempted an unassisted homebirth after cesarean (less than a year after the previous vertical cesarean) is one of these fundies referenced above. She wants to know why can women legally choose to abort their baies while she can't legally decide how to bring hers into the world? Interested that the logic doesn't make sense to her-

[SamuraiKatz]

Plenty of women have successful VBACs anyway. If anything, I tend to think that American doctors are too cesarean-happy.

I think there is a huge financial incentive for doctors to do as many C-Sections as they can justify.

[GiggleOfGirls]

Honestly though... if the hospital had given her a chance to have a hospital VBAC, I doubt she would've chosen to be at home. There's a disturbing trend of forcing pregnant women into interventions without giving them the opportunity to try things more naturally. At least in the hospital there would be an OR down the hallway and surgeons present. There's one doctor in my state who will attend crazy vaginal births - not footling breeches or breeches with arms over the head, but nearly everything else - BUT he does them in the OR so that if something were to go wrong, they could do something about it. He used to do VBACs after 3+ cesareans even, BUT in the OR in the hospital just in case they were one of the small percentage of women who rupture.

That doctor's willingness to accomodate women's wishes has probably kept quite a few high risk women in the hospital, where they belong, instead of trying for a VBAC after a vertical incision at home because nobody in the hospital would risk the liability.

Honestly, those situations are when informed consents and liability waivers should be used as well as extra precautions like delivering in the OR. I've heard of far too many women who attempt dangerous home births or have unassisted births (never a good idea, IMO) because the hospital doctors railroad them, refuse to give them any choices, or treat them like idiots.

I've seen doctors treat laboring women like idiots and that never goes well. If women are treated with respect and given accurate information, most of the time they will choose what is best for them and their baby. Pemberton did try to find a doctor in the hospital to attend her VBAC. She did try to get a safer option and only went to the unsafe option when nobody would help her with the safer option.

It's not a simple problem and there's no simple solution, IME, and those personhood laws and the idea that unborn children are more valuable than the adult woman carrying them are not helping anything.

[Wolfie]

I think there is a huge financial incentive for doctors to do as many C-Sections as they can justify.

I don't see this- I really don't. The vast majority of people I know have had vaginal births. A few have been induced early for what seems to be superficial reasons, but I have not heard of any being talked into a c-section without good medical reason. And as I said before it's really only been a few people I knew who had c-sections.

[Minerva]

Honestly though... if the hospital had given her a chance to have a hospital VBAC, I doubt she would've chosen to be at home. There's a disturbing trend of forcing pregnant women into interventions without giving them the opportunity to try things more naturally. At least in the hospital there would be an OR down the hallway and surgeons present. There's one doctor in my state who will attend crazy vaginal births - not footling breeches or breeches with arms over the head, but nearly everything else - BUT he does them in the OR so that if something were to go wrong, they could do something about it. He used to do VBACs after 3+ cesareans even, BUT in the OR in the hospital just in case they were one of the small percentage of women who rupture.

That doctor's willingness to accomodate women's wishes has probably kept quite a few high risk women in the hospital, where they belong, instead of trying for a VBAC after a vertical incision at home because nobody in the hospital would risk the liability.

Honestly, those situations are when informed consents and liability waivers should be used as well as extra precautions like delivering in the OR. I've heard of far too many women who attempt dangerous home births or have unassisted births (never a good idea, IMO) because the hospital doctors railroad them, refuse to give them any choices, or treat them like idiots.

I've seen doctors treat laboring women like idiots and that never goes well. If women are treated with respect and given accurate information, most of the time they will choose what is best for them and their baby. Pemberton did try to find a doctor in the hospital to attend her VBAC. She did try to get a safer option and only went to the unsafe option when nobody would help her with the safer option.

It's not a simple problem and there's no simple solution, IME, and those personhood laws and the idea that unborn children are more valuable than the adult woman carrying them are not helping anything.

I posted the ACLU's summary of the various cases in which legal protections for fetuses have led to pregnant people being criminalized and forced into surgeries a few months ago. If I recall correctly, there was at least one case where a woman was arrested for trying to have a homebirth because her doctor wouldn't even let her try to do a VBAC.

There was another one where a woman who was dying of cancer was forced to have a c-section they knew would probably kill her because there was a teeny chance that her baby might survive if they did that. The hospital got a court order, and she was wheeled into the OR against her will. She died in surgery, and so did her baby. Horrifying stuff.

The only fundy homebirther take on this stuff that I've read is basically "OMGz hypocrisy they'll let you kill your baby, but they won't let you choose how to birth it!!!" With no awareness of the fact that the fetal personhood laws they support are the reason this shit happens.

[Slt]

Honestly though... if the hospital had given her a chance to have a hospital VBAC, I doubt she would've chosen to be at home. There's a disturbing trend of forcing pregnant women into interventions without giving them the opportunity to try things more naturally. At least in the hospital there would be an OR down the hallway and surgeons present. There's one doctor in my state who will attend crazy vaginal births - not footling breeches or breeches with arms over the head, but nearly everything else - BUT he does them in the OR so that if something were to go wrong, they could do something about it. He used to do VBACs after 3+ cesareans even, BUT in the OR in the hospital just in case they were one of the small percentage of women who rupture.

That doctor's willingness to accomodate women's wishes has probably kept quite a few high risk women in the hospital, where they belong, instead of trying for a VBAC after a vertical incision at home because nobody in the hospital would risk the liability.

Honestly, those situations are when informed consents and liability waivers should be used as well as extra precautions like delivering in the OR. I've heard of far too many women who attempt dangerous home births or have unassisted births (never a good idea, IMO) because the hospital doctors railroad them, refuse to give them any choices, or treat them like idiots.

I've seen doctors treat laboring women like idiots and that never goes well. If women are treated with respect and given accurate information, most of the time they will choose what is best for them and their baby. Pemberton did try to find a doctor in the hospital to attend her VBAC. She did try to get a safer option and only went to the unsafe option when nobody would help her with the safer option.

It's not a simple problem and there's no simple solution, IME, and those personhood laws and the idea that unborn children are more valuable than the adult woman carrying them are not helping anything.

The problem with the solution above is that at the present time, there are no liability waivers for physicians. The waivers that you sign before a surgery is for releasing liability to the hospital for which the independent contractor (i.e. your surgeon) is performing your surgery at. The powers that be have deemed actual liability waivers unethical- so in this case, had her uterus rptured, it would have been a cut and dry case of medical malpratice- this doctor would have lost everything he had and could possibly lose his license for going against wht they call "standard practice." it is possible to find doctors in my large city who will go against standard practice- they are willing to risk their livelihood so that their patient's wishes can be taken into account. They should be commended for this, however- for me, it was a reason never to work in the field of L&D as a nurse. It just isn't worth the risk as a care provider.

I posted the ACLU's summary of the various cases in which legal protections for fetuses have led to pregnant people being criminalized and forced into surgeries a few months ago. If I recall correctly, there was at least one case where a woman was arrested for trying to have a homebirth because her doctor wouldn't even let her try to do a VBAC.

There was another one where a woman who was dying of cancer was forced to have a c-section they knew would probably kill her because there was a teeny chance that her baby might survive if they did that. The hospital got a court order, and she was wheeled into the OR against her will. She died in surgery, and so did her baby. Horrifying stuff.

The only fundy homebirther take on this stuff that I've read is basically "OMGz hypocrisy they'll let you kill your baby, but they won't let you choose how to birth it!!!" With no awareness of the fact that the fetal personhood laws they support are the reason this shit happens.

[Kitty]

I don't see this- I really don't. The vast majority of people I know have had vaginal births. A few have been induced early for what seems to be superficial reasons, but I have not heard of any being talked into a c-section without good medical reason. And as I said before it's really only been a few people I knew who had c-sections.

I have no idea about your experience, but I agree that American doctors have a huge financial incentive to do as many C-sections as they can justify, especially if the mothers are younger. A lot of the new moms I know are my age give or take about 2 years, and for the most part their babies are old enough to be walking now. I'm 21. More of them have had C-sections than vaginal, and it's no secret how poorly teenage mothers are treated even by doctors and nurses caring for them. So I can see a lot of interventions done on these very young mothers, who are terrified of birth and don't know what the hell is going on half the time anyway. That, and you can be given a C-section if the doctor thinks you've been laboring "too long"... in which case means that it's the end of his/her shift, and here in the US doctors are paid for attending births much more than they're paid for checking on laboring women.

It's one more "against" in my for/against having children list.

[lilith]

I attempted a VBAC, and I thank my lucky stars I was in a hospital, cause they can easily go wrong and mine did. I know many women have successful VBACs, but they really can be high risk and not all women are suitable candidates.

[dairyfreelife]

That's how I feel on this one. I think charging the woman with homicide seems a little much too. While she might have made poor choices that resulted in the death of her child I would think having lost this child would be punishment enough for her.

Two different women. Laura wanted a home birth after c-section. Melissa lost a twin. The quote just says she didn't have a c-section two weeks before, not that she didn't have or chose a c-section.

[Slt]

There is obviously more to both stories. Melissa was a felon and drug addict and both babies tested positive for cocaine and ETOH. She was advised on the cesarean based on there being almost no fluid left in her amniotic sacs, and the babies vital signs were poor. Her stance was that she didn't want a c-section because of the scar. From the info I found on her case, she had 6 kids, two were adopted and the other 2 (before the twins) were taken by the state. Sad situation, but very complex.

[Minerva]

There is obviously more to both stories. Melissa was a felon and drug addict and both babies tested positive for cocaine and ETOH. She was advised on the cesarean based on there being almost no fluid left in her amniotic sacs, and the babies vital signs were poor. Her stance was that she didn't want a c-section because of the scar. From the info I found on her case, she had 6 kids, two were adopted and the other 2 (before the twins) were taken by the state. Sad situation, but very complex.

You've got a point with the amniotic fluid and the babies vital signs, but them being a drug user and having a criminal record are not reasons in themselves to make someone's birth choices for them. When pregnant people can be prosecuted for using drugs, it could make them less likely to seek prenatal care. It can also make them less likely to continue their pregnancies, which should be concerning to the groups who pushed for these laws in the first place given that they, you know, think abortion is murder.

[GiggleOfGirls]

Well, my point is that there *should* be liability waivers for physicians. This is exactly the sort of situation that those sorts of waivers should exist for. If pregnant/laboring women want to make a choice that doesn't conform to the accepted standard of care they should be able to do so after having been appropriately informed and after signing an informed consent and liability waiver that absolves the doctor of liability for the woman's informed choice. In my experience in the natural childbirth community, the vast majority of women (even those who are set on having a VBAC or vaginal breech or whathaveyou, if at all possible) are willing to consent to an emergency cesarean if/when things actually start going wrong.

It's not as simple as that in the real world, I have no doubt because it never is simple, but something like that could probably be implemented without too much trouble if people actually cared about pregnant women's rights.

But no, unborn babies are MUCH more valuable and important than grown women and their choices are so it'll probably never happen :evil:

[DarkAnts]

Would they go after Michelle Duggar? Her body is aborting innocent "babies" because she is too old to carry them to term.

[Minerva]

Would they go after Michelle Duggar? Her body is aborting innocent "babies" because she is too old to carry them to term.

She has single-handedly added 19 brainwashed little bodies to their protests, so she gets a pass.

[Sola]

What happens when irony turns around and bites you in the backside.

These people really don't think do they? They are so pro-fetus that they campaign for Personhood. But at the same time they're pro-homebirth, anti-C-section, and don't want an OBGYN near them if they've previously given birth via the sunroof. Then suddenly they find that they are going to be forced to give birth by section in hospital because their Personhood bill has given sentience to their fetus. Nice one.

Now personally I don't think there is anything wrong with VBAC. Over here the assumption is that you will deliver vaginally, unless there is a serious reason not to. Many women VBAC. But if you've had multiple sections, you've had the vertical incision, then you will be strongly pushed to have your baby in hospital and by c-section. Because nobody wants the mother to bleed out on the table.

[desertvixen]

But at the same time they're pro-homebirth, anti-C-section, and don't want an OBGYN near them if they've previously given birth via the sunroof.

The image this sentence is giving me in my head is LOL-worthy.