Female Submission = Automatic Disadvantage

[tehgoobster]

I recently finished reading Jaycee Dugard's A Stolen Life (which is an excellent book, by the way), and I was struck by her reasons to stay with her kidnapper/rapist. One of the reasons she stayed was because he had brainwashed her into believing that the outside world was evil and dangerous and that she was safe with him in the backyard. She was also conditioned to trust him and to follow him. Reading her book, I couldn't help but think of fundies. Obviously, neither she nor Phillip Garrido were fundies, and of course, as potentially oppressive as uber-patriarchs can be, they're nowhere near as bad as the monster who kidnapped and raped Jaycee. I'm not trying to imply that they're rapists or pedophiles or anything like that. Still, reading her story, I couldn't help but think about the plight of many daughters in the patriarchy/SAHD movement, primarily because they're conditioned to submit to their fathers' authority since birth. Unlike the daughters in this movement, Jaycee wasn't trained to submit from birth, yet she was not immune from fear-based brainwashing/conditioning. If something tragic like this were to happen to a fundie daughter, I can't help but think that she'd be at an automatic disadvantage because she'd already be hardwired to submit to male authority. And what would happen if her abuser was her father? Where would she get the help she needs? We're told that the church could help girls in situations like this, but who do you think the church would side with, the daughter or the abuser father who fools people into thinking that he's a pillar of the community and that his daughter is just going through a rebellious phase?

Anyway, I've never seen fundies address this issue, so I'm very curious about what they'd have to say.

[watchdog]

I watched her interview with Diane Sawyer last week and was struck by how well-spoken and unbitter she seems to be. I realize it's been two years and she's had a lot of therapy during that time, and we're only seeing an edited interview, but I'm not sure I could have survived what she endured for 18 years, much less come out as apparently "normal" as she has. I hope she has a happy, fulfilling life now and that her daughters adjust as well as she seems to have.

[tehgoobster]

I watched her interview with Diane Sawyer last week and was struck by how well-spoken and unbitter she seems to be. I realize it's been two years and she's had a lot of therapy during that time, and we're only seeing an edited interview, but I'm not sure I could have survived what she endured for 18 years, much less come out as apparently "normal" as she has. I hope she has a happy, fulfilling life now and that her daughters adjust as well as she seems to have.

Yes, she seems like an amazing person.

[JesusFightClub]

I recently finished reading Jaycee Dugard's A Stolen Life (which is an excellent book, by the way), and I was struck by her reasons to stay with her kidnapper/rapist. One of the reasons she stayed was because he had brainwashed her into believing that the outside world was evil and dangerous and that she was safe with him in the backyard. She was also conditioned to trust him and to follow him. Reading her book, I couldn't help but think of fundies. Obviously, neither she nor Phillip Garrido were fundies, and of course, as potentially oppressive as uber-patriarchs can be, they're nowhere near as bad as the monster who kidnapped and raped Jaycee. I'm not trying to imply that they're rapists or pedophiles or anything like that. Still, reading her story, I couldn't help but think about the plight of many daughters in the patriarchy/SAHD movement, primarily because they're conditioned to submit to their fathers' authority since birth. Unlike the daughters in this movement, Jaycee wasn't trained to submit from birth, yet she was not immune from fear-based brainwashing/conditioning. If something tragic like this were to happen to a fundie daughter, I can't help but think that she'd be at an automatic disadvantage because she'd already be hardwired to submit to male authority. And what would happen if her abuser was her father? Where would she get the help she needs? We're told that the church could help girls in situations like this, but who do you think the church would side with, the daughter or the abuser father who fools people into thinking that he's a pillar of the community and that his daughter is just going through a rebellious phase?

Anyway, I've never seen fundies address this issue, so I'm very curious about what they'd have to say.

That's Stockholm Syndrome, no? I know it's a crude labelling, but I'm of the opinion a lot of fundie daughters already suffer with variants of this. If daddy was kind enough to her at other times, daddy would be a good man, and she'd testify to that...no matter what might happen now and again.

[DamnPrecious]

In fundie thinking, this would not happen to their daughters. First, their children would not be taking the school bus to school. Second, the children never go anywhere alone. Third and most important, they are gods chosen and this only happens to us "evil satan loving librals ( normal people).

[camdendayton]

That's Stockholm Syndrome, no? I know it's a crude labelling, but I'm of the opinion a lot of fundie daughters already suffer with variants of this. If daddy was kind enough to her at other times, daddy would be a good man, and she'd testify to that...no matter what might happen now and again.

According to her therapist, who was on the Diane Sawyer interview, it was "learned helplessness," not Stockholm's Syndrome. As far as I know she never defended him which I think would be more characteristic of Stockholm's. It does seem that some of the fundie daughters have some of this learned helplessness.

[Justme]

I'll bet there are a great number of fundie fathers/brothers who sexually abuse their wives/sisters. The vast majority of fundies live quietly keeping their lives off the computers. Probably lots don't even own computers. These fundie men can find passages in the bible to "twist" out of context to justify their abuse.

[JesusFightClub]

According to her therapist, who was on the Diane Sawyer interview, it was "learned helplessness," not Stockholm's Syndrome. As far as I know she never defended him which I think would be more characteristic of Stockholm's. It does seem that some of the fundie daughters have some of this learned helplessness.

Oh, interesting...thanks! Knew I was being a bit clumsy in expression there. I will google this.

[tehgoobster]

In fundie thinking, this would not happen to their daughters. First, their children would not be taking the school bus to school. Second, the children never go anywhere alone. Third and most important, they are gods chosen and this only happens to us "evil satan loving librals ( normal people).

Yeah, I agree. I hate to say this, but I think that some fundies would find a way to place blame on the victim. I could see some of them being like, "Well, if you hadn't done X, Y, or Z, then this wouldn't have happened to you, so now you'll just have to face the consequences of your carelessness/sinfulness." I hope I'm wrong, though, 'cause that's pretty horrible.

[tehgoobster]

I'll bet there are a great number of fundie fathers/brothers who sexually abuse their wives/sisters. The vast majority of fundies live quietly keeping their lives off the computers. Probably lots don't even own computers. These fundie men can find passages in the bible to "twist" out of context to justify their abuse.

I wouldn't say that fundie men are more prone to sexually abusing their daughters than the general population, but the fact of the matter is that 30% of sexual abuse is perpetrated by family members, so I'm sure there are some who do. My concern is that being conditioned to be unquestioningly submissive since birth would make things a lot harder for girls dealing with this. They're taught to trust and to submit to their father (or else!), and they're taught that the outside world is evil and dangerous, so how many options would they have if they were being abused? In a lot of cases, it'd be their word against the all-mighty patriarch's.

It's interesting, though, because I don't think I've ever seen people like the Botkins, Doug Phillips, ZZ, Bill Gothard, the McDonalds, etc. address this issue. I can't help but wonder how they'd advise dealing with it.

[Oddeverything]

I've often thought that the submissiveness drilled into young fundie women would set them up for exploitation or worse at the hands of untrustworthy men. You don't even have to get into cases as extreme as the Duggard situation. This patriarchical submission forbids women to exercise common sense and basic instincts. The average woman after a while will see abuse for what it is, even if she cannot manage to leave. The submissive wife is forbidden to see abuse, and if she does see it, she is told to be more submissive so her husband won't have cause to abuse her or her children.

So I agree with the idea that submission creates a horrific tendency for fundie women to fall to harm, especially within their own family units. They don't have to be kidnapped and held in a yard in order to lose control of their bodies and minds. That happens to them from the day they are born.

[Austin]

According to her therapist, who was on the Diane Sawyer interview, it was "learned helplessness," not Stockholm's Syndrome. As far as I know she never defended him which I think would be more characteristic of Stockholm's. It does seem that some of the fundie daughters have some of this learned helplessness.

I read the book a couple of days ago (I must have pre-ordered it because it was downloaded to my Kindle one day last week). I was very moved by her account of her long ordeal.

And no, Garrido wasn't strictly a "fundie" as we think of them here, but he had some very strange religious beliefs regarding angels influencing people and the like. He was mentally ill and a religious nut - never a good combo. His first wife, Chris, was very submissive to him, as was Nancy (that info is from another book; Jaycee doesn't mention his first wife in her book). He is a monster.

I believe, when Jaycee was in that situation, it seems that she cared for the Garridos and wanted to protect them. In the later years of her captivity, Nancy Garrido took her out into the public many times to shop at thrift stores and other errands and Jaycee did not alert anyone. The same thing was true of Elizabeth Smart, I believe, and IIRC, would not initially even give her true name when the authorities questioned her. You can really see in the Dugard book how Jaycee was literally stripped of any psychologial defenses she may have had, and since Garrido initially confined her in such horrible conditions and assaulted her so horrifically, any improvement in her condition led her to be very grateful to the Garridos. Gradually, over time, while he continued to abuse her terribly, he gave her more very basic "comforts" and more nominal "freedoms", so it is not that hard to imagine how he garnered her cooperation and silence over many years.

I am glad that Jaycee seems to be doing well and that she seems to have such an excellent team of therapists. The equine therapy that she did after her rescue was especially interesting.

[contrary]

i'm fascinated with this story, and have almost clicked many times to download her book to my kindle..but, since having girlbabies of my own, i feel hyper-sensitive to stories (even fictional ones) about the abuse of children.

i am worried this would really wig me out. is it graphic?

[Austin]

i'm fascinated with this story, and have almost clicked many times to download her book to my kindle..but, since having girlbabies of my own, i feel hyper-sensitive to stories (even fictional ones) about the abuse of children.

i am worried this would really wig me out. is it graphic?

In the beginning, when she was first taken, she lays out exactly what happened to her. After that, she really does not give too many details. It was kind of like, "you get the picture" sort of thing and she did not belabor the details of the sexual abuse throughout the book.

[contrary]

grah. maybe i should download it, but wait awhile to jump in. i used to be so desensitized to violence (was a big tarantino fan, etc)...now i just can't deal...ESPECIALLY violence towards children. they all seem to morph into my own children and really worm up in my head.