Trailer-It's a girl!!

[Sunnichick31]

I'm sorry (no I'm not!!) but anyone who would kill a baby just for being a girl can fuck themselves. And that Indian woman who said she killed 8 daughters? I hope she spents eternity in the deepest, hottest part of hell.

(here's the link incase embedding doesn't work.

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[CanadianHippie]

ISme5-9orR0

Here ya go.

[valsa]

I'm sorry (no I'm not!!) but anyone who would kill a baby just for being a girl can fuck themselves. And that Indian woman who said she killed 8 daughters? I hope she spents eternity in the deepest, hottest part of hell.

I have very mixed feelings about this issue. I obviously agree with you about people who kill baby girls- they can rot in hell. However, in circumstances like those existing in India and China, as much as I loathe to, I support allowing families to abort female fetuses.

1) It's better than just letting them have the girl and then kill it.

2) The culture that exists in those places put a significant financial strain on the families of female children (dowry is a big issue in India but there's also having to spend the money to raise a female child who then leaves and becomes completely a part of her husband's family upon marriage (essentially giving you no return on the money invested to raise that child), and also the fact that the boys of the family care for their elderly parents)

I support choice when it comes to reproductive decisions and, to me, this means that if I support a woman (or couple) choosing not to have a child for financial reasons, I also have to support a woman choosing not to have a female child for financial reasons (exclusive to having female children) even if I personally find it horrible to abort due to sex.

I do think that people who perpetuate a culture which causes female children to be so much more of a burden than male children are just as deserving of hatred as the people who kill female babies though.

[ladypuglover]

I have very mixed feelings about this issue. I obviously agree with you about people who kill baby girls- they can rot in hell. However, in circumstances like those existing in India and China, as much as I loathe to, I support allowing families to abort female fetuses.

1) It's better than just letting them have the girl and then kill it.

2) The culture that exists in those places put a significant financial strain on the families of female children (dowry is a big issue in India but there's also having to spend the money to raise a female child who then leaves and becomes completely a part of her husband's family upon marriage (essentially giving you no return on the money invested to raise that child), and also the fact that the boys of the family care for their elderly parents)

I support choice when it comes to reproductive decisions and, to me, this means that if I support a woman (or couple) choosing not to have a child for financial reasons, I also have to support a woman choosing not to have a female child for financial reasons (exclusive to having female children) even if I personally find it horrible to abort due to sex.

I do think that people who perpetuate a culture which causes female children to be so much more of a burden than male children are just as deserving of hatred as the people who kill female babies though.

And isn't that what these fundies want to lead us all to? I'm talking fundies like the Duggars, Zsuzsu and all the others.

[Georgiana]

I'm sorry (no I'm not!!) but anyone who would kill a baby just for being a girl can fuck themselves. And that Indian woman who said she killed 8 daughters? I hope she spents eternity in the deepest, hottest part of hell.

I disagree. Many of these are women who are trapped by circumstances beyond their control, mainly the society they live in and their economic status. There are some cultures where having a male child is essential for a variety of reasons, and while I disagree with this, that is the reality these women have to deal with. Also, I'm guessing that her economic status is such that she cannot afford to raise 8 daughters. It's easy to be on the outside looking in and judge these women. I can't speak for you, but I am from a society where the gender of my children doesn't matter and the thought of ever not being able to feed a child is far from my mind. But for this woman, those are the very real issues that she is dealing with. She has to function within her society and circumstances.

We should fight the culture, the poverty, and the external forces that drive women to this. To call a woman who has made a tough decision a monster is both to gloss over the real issues and put blame where it does not wholly belong.

Also, let me say from personal experience that actually CHOOSING to terminate a pregnancy changes how you look at others who make that same decision. I know the fear, horror, and pain she felt, and I know that the guilt and sadness doesn't always just go away. I know what it feels like to be trapped into making a decision.

I used to be a lot more quick to judge. Then I found myself in a situation I never dreamed I would be in, and it was a whole hell of a lot harder and more terrifying than I could ever tell you. I'd love to say I'd never do what she did. But I can't. Because I haven't been in her shoes, and I just don't know what I would do.

All I can say is that I hope her story will inspire others to fight the evils that drove her to this decision so that no woman ever has to do this again.

[emmiedahl]

A lot of times the women themselves are in danger if they don't terminate the pregnancy. What are they supposed to do, die with the baby or get rid of it and pray for a boy next time?

I blame the patriarchy. If girls were universally as valued as boys, this would not happen.

[valsa]

And isn't that what these fundies want to lead us all to? I'm talking fundies like the Duggars, Zsuzsu and all the others.

I assume you mean lead us to a culture that makes girls more of a burden than boys?

Strangely enough, I'm not sure about that. In India, girls go to live with their husbands, usually in multi-generational homes with their husband's family. They sever ties with their own family to be absorbed into their husband's. In US fundie culture, though girls become property of their husbands once they marry, it seems to me that the new couple usually both equally sever their connections to their families (leave and cleave) to go live on their own. Girls can still have strong connections with their own family and I can't imagine that fundies would find it stranger for a married woman to care for her elderly parents than to care for her elderly in-laws.

So even though men and boys in fundie culture are worth more, in a spiritual sense, I'm not sure it's considered more of a burden to raise a female child.

[Feberin]

We just found out today that our second child is going to be a girl. We're really excited. But we live in the US and aren't part of a culture that makes our child's gender matter finanically. I think killing baby girls is horrible and would rather see doctors tell expectant mothers during the pregnancy so they could abort. I'm pro-choice and that means it's the woman carrying the child's choice. It's a sad situation but WAY better then killing living babies!

[Kelya]

I hate the patriarchal culture that contributes to these issues. I feel bad for and want to help women who are put into this awful situation.

[kamcho_papio]

I think it's worth noting that dowry has been illegal in India for fifty years, although like with many other things that are also against the law around the world, the practice persists. Obviously, making things illegal does nothing to stop them.

[NurseNell]

A lot of times the women themselves are in danger if they don't terminate the pregnancy. What are they supposed to do, die with the baby or get rid of it and pray for a boy next time?

I blame the patriarchy. If girls were universally as valued as boys, this would not happen.

They weren't talking about terminating the pregnancies in this trailer. Thy were talking about killing the baby girls once born. This is a big difference. I understand the culture is totally different and none of us can probably imagine what it's like but still, killing a baby after birth is something I cannot imagine. I have 3 Indian neighbors, all 3 had first pregnancies over the last 2 years, they all had girls and were very happy and love their daughters. Of course they are here, though returning to India after post grad is done, and they are all from wealthy families but I do not believe any of the mothers would have considered killing their baby girls.

[emmiedahl]

I think they were including abortions, because one of the women was talking about prenatal scans. Also, the 200 million missing figure includes abortions performed because of gender.

[2xx1xy1JD]

1. India is increasingly connected to the West. I don't think it's a bad thing to be horrified and judgmental, because in this case I believe that it has the potential to change attitudes and values.

2. Inevitably, when the parents who got rid of their girls see their sons grow up, they are going to be in for one rude awakening. With so many more boys than girls, their sons won't be able to extort lavish dowries and may be lucky to find a wife at all. It will be the girls who will have the power to dictate their terms, and may also decide that a future as a slave to a mother-in-law is not for them.

[dairyfreelife]

That's so sad. It's one thing to abort, another to kill a living baby. I will never condone that and that's what the women with eight daughters did. The saddest was the couple who talked about the doctor killing their newborn daughter. They were devasted by that. That is beyond cruel. Those parents wanted their daughter and the doctor killed it because it was a girl. Not all of India is as obsessed with having boys as some parts thankfully, but it shows how heavily Asian cultures and it's not just India, are still so misogynist.

[tropaka]

Recently one of the editors of the Canadian Medical Association journal recommended witholding the sex of a child from parents until 30 weeks because of evidence of the same happening in Canada and the US (among Chinese, Korean and Indian immigrant populatioms). Of course he is in all sorts of shit about it. I think we are better off trying to fight the cultural and patriarchal values that make male offspring more valuable to families than witholding information from parents.

http://vitals.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/ ... s-doc-says

ETA - although I think abortion must remain legal I do find it disgusting - these are wanted pregnancies discarded because the sex of a child as opposed to unwanted pregnancies that may be aborted sooner.

[ADoyle90815]

That's so sad. It's one thing to abort, another to kill a living baby. I will never condone that and that's what the women with eight daughters did. The saddest was the couple who talked about the doctor killing their newborn daughter. They were devasted by that. That is beyond cruel. Those parents wanted their daughter and the doctor killed it because it was a girl. Not all of India is as obsessed with having boys as some parts thankfully, but it shows how heavily Asian cultures and it's not just India, are still so misogynist.

I also blame patriarchy, especially when it's taken to such extremes that newborn babies are murdered because they happened to be born female. The cruelest thing was that female-hating doctor killing that girl that one couple really wanted.

[DCmilly]

It is definitely a problem with patriarchy, but as hard as it is to believe, I think attitudes about daughters are changing, albeit far too slowly. Being judgmental, talking about how much better the west is and hating these women isn't going to accomplish anything. Improving education, enforcing anti-dowry and inheritance laws consistently, and improving access to health care and family planning is what is really going to help change the situation.

[bekkah]

Really, it is an issue in about 2 states in India and to boot they are the poorest two states in the country. With anything, you have to do your own research and really learn the issue. I''m no expert but when I was at university in India, they do teach about it and they do view it as a practice that should be rid of. They are educating the higher classes, its time for direct education to be aimed at the poorer classes.

[doggie]

The sad part is they are fucking themselves over no matter what. all the boys have no one to marry so what happens? crime and wars go way up peace goes down. This is a Someone else will make the girl babies for my boy child to marry plan. But since everyone says that it does not work well. lack of education is the biggest cause of this.

[valsa]

What I'm hoping for is that eventually the lack of women to marry will actually improve the situation for women and girls. It's hard to demand a dowry or treat a woman like shit if she's got a lot of other lonely men wanting to marry her.

Unfortunately, if the situation emerging in China is any indication, it'll lead to women being kidnapped, girls from poor families being sold to wealthy families with sons, and women from foreign countries being trafficked in.

[jaelh]

Unfortunately, if the situation emerging in China is any indication, it'll lead to women being kidnapped, girls from poor families being sold to wealthy families with sons, and women from foreign countries being trafficked in.

It's amazing how many women from poorer countries come voluntarily : in some Korean fishing villages, you'll find 8-10% of the women are Vietnamese.

[valsa]

It's amazing how many women from poorer countries come voluntarily : in some Korean fishing villages, you'll find 8-10% of the women are Vietnamese.

Oh, I'm definitely sure that some of them do come voluntarily but, if they're trafficked in illegally, they're still vulnerable to abuse. I'm not sure what China and India's immigration policies are (and maybe they'll change them to let more women from poorer countries in when the gender crisis peaks), but if they're in the country illegally, they have no rights (or don't know their rights), are isolated due to language issues, and have no recourse if their husbands abuse or abandon them, etc.

[jaelh]

Oh, I'm definitely sure that some of them do come voluntarily but, if they're trafficked in illegally, they're still vulnerable to abuse. I'm not sure what China and India's immigration policies are (and maybe they'll change them to let more women from poorer countries in when the gender crisis peaks), but if they're in the country illegally, they have no rights (or don't know their rights), are isolated due to language issues, and have no recourse if their husbands abuse or abandon them, etc.

Actually, India and China aren't the major receiving countries interestingly: in both there tend to be enough women available from other (poorer) communities in country. Indeed, until a few years ago, China was a major sending country! Much higher numbers go to Singapore, Taiwan, Korea (though the number is decreasing) etc. This is for cross border marriage anyway, which is the only area really for migration law to be involved.

Either way, can be just as bad for those who go voluntarily (and the majority are voluntary).

Korea, for example, you dont' get residency unless your husband secures it for you It leaves many women in the same boat as if they were there illegally: leave and you have no valid recourse to remain. Many families are known to refuse to secure permits for their wives for exactly this reason. In Taiwan, you need to have a child + 2 years being married in country before you get PR as a foreign wife - that's a hell of a long time if you're in an abusive relationship. Divorce and custody rules are, as you might imagine them being, heavily weighted in favour of a citizen father if a mother has no income, no language skills and would need to leave the country to suirvive. Language issues are standard; and access to a similar community of other wives isn't guaranteed, legal or illegal. For much the same reason as my first eg in Korea, many families are reticent to encourage in group mixing in case the wives get-a-whinging and missing home. Much of the narrative in receiving countries says "be careful of these women", and for most families the cost of the wife is a massive investment. Fear of losing that investment can result in some pretty egregious behaviour. Also, the intent of many wives to return money back to their families in their mother-country can create a perception of an eternally split loyalty, and something of a threat to the family unit in the new country.

Anyway. I don't think we disagree. Legality, coercion and trafficking in the bride-for-export narrative is a thousand shades of gray, and while legal inward migration can be helpful, it's no remedy at all against the abuses likely to be meted out.

[valsa]

Anyway. I don't think we disagree. Legality, coercion and trafficking in the bride-for-export narrative is a thousand shades of gray, and while legal inward migration can be helpful, it's no remedy at all against the abuses likely to be meted out.

No, we agree. I just worry that, once the gender disparity in China and India reach a boiling point, exploitation of women will get worse, instead of the plight of women getting better due to their scarcity.

[jaelh]

No, we agree. I just worry that, once the gender disparity in China and India reach a boiling point, exploitation of women will get worse, instead of the plight of women getting better due to their scarcity.

Of course - though I think we're more or less there already. I think increasing *wealth* is going to be what will drive bridal migration; the gender skew has more or less stablised in both countries. People with money can "afford" wives; money also makes for an attrative destination nation.

Interestingly, the birth rate discrepency in Korea has almost normalised! The Korean government launched a massive advertising/public policy campign a few years ago, and the newly normalised rates suggest that it's working. One of the most interesting aspects of it was a big push suggesting that daughters would look after you in their old age, sons wouldn't. Self interest is a constant, me thinks :)