A new kind of tract: From Gays to Salvation Army

[clarinetpower]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/24/us/be ... views.html

[Deleted07]

Excellent article. I think its time that a lot more people start to realise where the Salvation Army stands on these issues, because it seems to not be reported on.

It saddens me to think they would allow someone to be homeless and starving just because of who they happen to love. :-(

[LIzzieB]

That's sad. I always had a lot of respect for the Salvation Army because of their work during WW2 in Papua New Guinea. My grandfather directly benefited from it, and always held them in high esteem.

[bubbabearzle]

Yes, they are one screwed up organization.... they are also the single best example I have against morons who argue that taxpayer money should go to religious-based "charities" because they have the best structures set up for administering such claims. Surely, they say, we can just make sure they don't discriminate (the stupidity of some people astounds me!).

The salvation army isn't without its good points, however, they are great for comic relief. I swear that some day I will finally get around the putting my uncle's sixth wedding ceremony converted from VHS, because by not showing it far and wide I'm depriving you all ;-) The minister was making grave references to women masturbating with pickles and people out having sex like cats on an alley. All this at my uncle's 6th wedding (yeah, true believer in the vows, that one :shock: ) The best part of the video was whenever the minister said something particularly good the camera man would pan the camera over to the row where my dad and his sisters were sitting just in time to catch a shot of the 10 of them all in a row doubled over at the waist, turning beet red, and shaking in silent laughter. Good times ;)

[Vex]

That's interesting... In Australia, I've seen the Salvation Army be involved in AIDS awareness and charities. I knew they were a very Christian organisation, but I had no idea they were any kind of fundamentalists. It's entirely possible that they're not fundies here. I've never heard stories of bigotry from them here, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I often buy from their charity stores (although I don't give them direct donations), but now I'm going to do some research into their policies on helping the gay community. If they actively resist helping gay people I will definitely be boycotting them from now on.

I don't really condemn Christian organisations for thinking homosexuality is a sin, as long as they don't try and convert gay people or deny gay Christians help if they need it.

[daharyn]

I've heard from a variety of people that "oh, yes, the Salvation Army is really fundie in the U.S., but not here." And I'm honestly not sure that that's true. As a global organization, I'm pretty sure its policies apply globally, even if there are places with stronger anti-discrimination laws which essentially dilute the SA's message.

True story: my entire extended family de-friended me on Facebook after I posted a link to the Bilerico (blogger referenced in the NYT article) post on this topic. :roll:

[FJismyheadship]

Wow... and I spent all my free time ringing the bell for them. (Okay, it was as a favor to a friend of mine because out of 800 people in a church, he could only rely on one person *me* to help him ring the stupid bell)

I used to live in a Salvation Army Shelter in West Virginia. I didnt like the ladies that ran it at all... they were horribly mean. At least, thats how I remember it.

[thoughtful]

No change for me. I've never given to The Salvation Army, since the second word in their name pretty much tipped me off that they want to save my soul and make me a Christian. No thanks.

From a 2007 interview with the then-General of TSA:

B: Is there still in The Salvation Army the mission, the attempt, to convert people?

SC: Yes, and that's our most important task, even before our social work.

http://www.salvationarmy.org/ihq/www_ih ... endocument

[CanadianHippie]

I've heard from a variety of people that "oh, yes, the Salvation Army is really fundie in the U.S., but not here." And I'm honestly not sure that that's true. As a global organization, I'm pretty sure its policies apply globally, even if there are places with stronger anti-discrimination laws which essentially dilute the SA's message.

True story: my entire extended family de-friended me on Facebook after I posted a link to the Bilerico (blogger referenced in the NYT article) post on this topic. :roll:

I think it might be, the position statement for Canada and Bermuda, not sure the process that but those two together, its not a country pairing you'd expect says "The Salvation Army upholds the dignity of all persons. For this reason, and in obedience to the example of Jesus Christ, whose compassionate love is all-embracing, The Salvation Army does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation in the delivery of its services."

http://www.salvationarmyethics.org/posi ... sexuality/

Link came from http://www.salvationarmy.ca/positionstatements/

So in Canada and Bermuda at least the salvations armies don't have the same purpose statement as the one linked in the article.

[FJismyheadship]

Wait, really!? Its more important to covert people than it is to help the homeless??? Then WHY was I ringing that damn bell!? It certainally wasnt for the money, it was strictly volunteer for me. Good thing we're not doing it next year, cause my friend would not have his "hero and blessing" on hand.

[daharyn]

I think it might be, the position statement for Canada and Bermuda, not sure the process that but those two together, its not a country pairing you'd expect says "The Salvation Army upholds the dignity of all persons. For this reason, and in obedience to the example of Jesus Christ, whose compassionate love is all-embracing, The Salvation Army does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation in the delivery of its services."

So in Canada and Bermuda at least the salvations armies don't have the same purpose statement as the one linked in the article.

Well, technically, the US Salvation Army says it doesn't discriminate: "In keeping with these convictions, the services of The Salvation Army are available to all who qualify, without regard to sexual orientation." (http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/www ... endocument)

But it's not just a matter of the delivery of services. It's also about lobbying for discriminatory laws, and they have done that in more than just the US: http://www.bilerico.com/2011/11/why_you ... y_bell.php

I naturally want to think the Canadian Salvation Army is A-OK, since I spend so much time in that country, but I do have to point out that as an organization, they are not only explicitly evangelical, they are doctrinally anti-gay. Both matter--and both mean I won't give.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Wow. I guess this is one place where it seems that fake-money tracts actually make sense - it's money being collected on a purely voluntary basis (I realize tipping TECHNICALLY is voluntary, but given wage scales it isn't, for me), by a political organization, where the money is not going to the person ringing the bell but rather "upstairs" somewhere to be counted. And the message is an explicit "here's why I'm boycotting your organization."

Personally if given a choice I prefer to give to places that don't require OR push religious belief. There are religious-run places that are this way, even.

[Deleted07]

That's interesting... In Australia, I've seen the Salvation Army be involved in AIDS awareness and charities. I knew they were a very Christian organisation, but I had no idea they were any kind of fundamentalists. It's entirely possible that they're not fundies here. I've never heard stories of bigotry from them here, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I often buy from their charity stores (although I don't give them direct donations), but now I'm going to do some research into their policies on helping the gay community. If they actively resist helping gay people I will definitely be boycotting them from now on.

I don't really condemn Christian organisations for thinking homosexuality is a sin, as long as they don't try and convert gay people or deny gay Christians help if they need it.

Heres an article I found on the Australian Salvation Army site:

http://www.salvationarmy.org.au/about-t ... ality.html

In spite of changing lifestyles and values, the family unit - father, mother and children - is still the ideal social institution in contemporary Australian life.

Homosexual practice however, is, in the light of Scripture, clearly unacceptable. Such activity is chosen behaviour and is thus a matter of the will. It is therefore able to be directed or restrained in the same way heterosexual urges are controlled. Homosexual practice would render any person ineligible for full membership (soldiership) in the Army. However, practising homosexuals are welcome to worship with, and join in the fellowship of The Salvation Army.

[Mama Mia]

I was just reading an article about how some people are upset with the Salvation Army because they are not 'pro-life' enough for them. The article ( which I can't find now ) stated that the Salvation Army is getting donation boycotts from both conservatives because of the relatively pro-choice stance .. and liberals because of their anti-homosexual statements.

I don't know when or how to break links, here is the first blog I found on google that discussed it a little.. sorry if I'm not doing this appropriately. I think this is what is meant be breaking a link ?

http://www.firstthingsdotcom/onthesquar ... ation-army

[MamaJunebug]

The SalvArm does a lot of good, but it could do more.

The "colonels" of the SalvArm in the Saint Louis area are well remunerated; some live in an even nicer neighborhood than the Zes family's (James Zes owns a luxury hotel and hundreds of rental units in east-central Missouri and is a board member, IIRC, of Vision Forum).

Since I learned about the papal level of wealth in which the higher ranking SalvArm officers live, I've directed my dollars elsewhere. When SalvArm officers take a vow to live among the people they help, and with salaries and benefits that match a modest lifestyle, I'll re-consider my giving.

I have had the same attitude toward the Girl Scouts of America since I found out that some of their upper management have company cars and other pretty nice perks. I understand that fundraising for non-profits is a business and that agencies need to attract the best people they can. I simply choose not to support an organization that provides a posh lifestyle in large part from the work of pre-teen girls peddling cookies.

One other tidbit about SalvArm: If a husband and wife both are officers, the wife will never be promoted to outrank her husband. Ugh.

[godlytomatosoup]

Wasn't it the Salvos who had a policy of actually throwing in the rubbish any Harry Potter or other 'witchcraft'-themed toys donated for Children in need? They didn't tell the donors their gifts would be landfill, they just quietly got rid of them.

[Guest Anonymous]

One other tidbit about SalvArm: If a husband and wife both are officers, the wife will never be promoted to outrank her husband. Ugh.

In the UK, it was the case until quite recently that an SA officer could only marry another SA officer, otherwise they were forced to give up their job. Someone I knew felt very guilty because he was promoted to take his boss's job, simply because she had married a non-officer and so had to resign from her post. The man who was promoted was a deputy without the management skills for his new job. I believe that our last round of Equality legislation put paid to that level of discrimination, rather than any re-thinking of the policy on the SA's part.

[Peas n carrots]

I learned in Trivial Pursuit last night the SA motto is "Blood and Fire," which sounds really militant to me. It always made me laugh in the Austin Powers movies that Frau Farbissma was the director of the militant wing of the Salvation Army.

True story...one of SA's big soldier training centers is smack dab in the middle of Boystown in Chicago. TBH the SA training center was probably there long before it became a gay neighborhood.

[FakePigtails]

Wasn't it the Salvos who had a policy of actually throwing in the rubbish any Harry Potter or other 'witchcraft'-themed toys donated for Children in need? They didn't tell the donors their gifts would be landfill, they just quietly got rid of them.

I can tell you from experience they don't care about all the vampire-themed things at least! At least where I am they bring the donations in still tied in the bags the donors gave them in and volunteers sort them. I was never told to watch for certain things. I don't know that they were thrilled about The Hunger Games books when I explained the general plot (as a heads-up to not give them to a really young kid) but they let them go to older kids.

[GenerationCedarchip]

The SalvArm does a lot of good, but it could do more.

The "colonels" of the SalvArm in the Saint Louis area are well remunerated; some live in an even nicer neighborhood than the Zes family's (James Zes owns a luxury hotel and hundreds of rental units in east-central Missouri and is a board member, IIRC, of Vision Forum).

Since I learned about the papal level of wealth in which the higher ranking SalvArm officers live, I've directed my dollars elsewhere. When SalvArm officers take a vow to live among the people they help, and with salaries and benefits that match a modest lifestyle, I'll re-consider my giving.

I have had the same attitude toward the Girl Scouts of America since I found out that some of their upper management have company cars and other pretty nice perks. I understand that fundraising for non-profits is a business and that agencies need to attract the best people they can. I simply choose not to support an organization that provides a posh lifestyle in large part from the work of pre-teen girls peddling cookies.

One other tidbit about SalvArm: If a husband and wife both are officers, the wife will never be promoted to outrank her husband. Ugh.

Wow - I had no idea any of the SalvArm folks lived like that. The area director (whatever rank that is called - commander?) in my area just lives in a little rundown two bedroom house that is attached to the homeless shelter that they run.