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Archbishop Vigano Appartently to be Tried by the Vatican For Schism


47of74

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Carlo Maria Vigano is apparently getting called to the woodshed for being in a state of schism.

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Vigano revealed news of the canonical trial by the Vatican’s disciplinary body, the Dicastery of the Doctrine of the Faith, himself Thursday on X and released a long statement in which he accused the Pope of promoting unchecked immigration, LGBTQ+ ideologies and an environmentalist agenda.

“Bergoglio is to the church what other world leaders are to their nations: traitors, subversives, and final liquidators of traditional society.’’

Adding: “It is no coincidence that the accusation against me concerns the questioning of the legitimacy of Jorge Mario Bergoglio and … the ideological, theological, moral and liturgical cancer of which the Bergoglian ‘synod church’ is the necessary metastasis.’’

Vigano routinely refers to the Argentine-born Francis by his given name — Jorge Mario Bergoglio — just as a further disrespectful dig. He’s called Francis a liberal “servant of Satan,” a usurper of the throne of St. Peter, demanded that the Swiss Guards arrest him for crimes including heresy, blamed the Pope for “the scourge of homosexuality’’ and accused him of overlooking sexual misconduct among priests.

Vigano is a Branch Trumpvidian who once praised the felon's leadership, especially when it came to COVID-19.  If  faces excommunication and ouster from his office and Vatican apartment.  Good.  Francis has been tolerating him for a bit too long now.

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I see this crap among trad Catholics a lot: the Pope is absolutely infallible—until he objects to their prejudices and political leanings. Then he becomes the Antichrist.

i also saw this in the Mormon church during COVID: Their Prophet, the president of their church, is a retired cardiothoracic surgeon, and according to their religion, is speaking directly from God. When he spoke out in strong favor of masking, vaccines, and other anti-COVID protocols, many Mormons insisted he was “speaking as a man, not as a prophet,” and did whatever-the-heck they wanted.

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19 hours ago, Hane said:

I see this crap among trad Catholics a lot: the Pope is absolutely infallible—until he objects to their prejudices and political leanings. Then he becomes the Antichrist.

In the time immediately following the Second Vatican Council there was the extremely conservative Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre who disagreed with just about everything the Council did.  Yeah, he pretty much considered all the Popes after the Council to be the Antichrist.  After trying to work with Lefebvre for a number of years, John Paul II excommunicated him and the four Bishops Lefebvre consecrated on June 30, 1988.  In the Catholic Church a Bishop can consecrate another Bishop but needs to have permission from the Pope to do so, which JPII had not given Lefebvre.  After years of trying to work with the guy JP II said, nope, I'm done.

Lefebvre had been summoned to the wood shed on more than one occasion.  Paul VI had a few words to say about him in this in an October 1976 letter; 

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Finally, your behavior is contradictory.  You want, so you say, to remedy the abuses that disfigure the church; you regret that authority in the church is not sufficiently respected; you wish to safeguard authentic faith, esteem for the ministerial priesthood and fervor for the eucharist in its sacrificial and sacramental fullness.  Such zeal would, in itself, merit our encouragement, since it is a question of exigencies which, together with evangelization and the unity of Christians, remain at the heart of Our preoccupations and of Our mission.

But how can you at the same time, in order to fulfill this role, claim that you are obliged to act contrary to the recent Council in opposition to your brethren in the episcopate, to distrust the Holy See itself—which you call the “Rome of the neo-modernist and neo-Protestant tendency”—and to set yourself up in open disobedience to Us?  If you truly want to work “under Our authority,” as you affirm in your last private letter, it is immediately necessary to put an end to these ambiguities and contradictions.

 

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Vigano is majorly QAnon.  

I'm trying to remember the most insane, extreme, wing nut trad Catholic woman that we (well, mostly me) discussed here on FJ in the distant past.    She was from the Denver area and just nuts.  Doing away with the Latin mass sent her over the edge because the Latin mass is the only real AUTHENTIC mass, don't ya know. 

I think she was an agricultural commodities trader or something.  

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I recall reading when I was prepping for conversion to become a Catholic that the reforms of Vatican II were an effort to return the Church to what it was in earlier centuries,  Much of the Tridentine Mass came from the Counter Reformation, as I understand it.  The second Vatican Council wanted the laity involved in the liturgy so yes, the Mass was now in the vernacular.  The laity could now receive the Eucharist in their hands and drink from the Cup.  We had lay readers  of the Old Testament, Psalm and Epistles during Mass and the laity could help distribute communion if needed.  We even had girls serve at the altar.  That is no longer the case in the US Church, of course.

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3 hours ago, Howl said:

Vigano is majorly QAnon.  

I'm trying to remember the most insane, extreme, wing nut trad Catholic woman that we (well, mostly me) discussed here on FJ in the distant past.    She was from the Denver area and just nuts.  Doing away with the Latin mass sent her over the edge because the Latin mass is the only real AUTHENTIC mass, don't ya know.

St. Francis Xavier - the Catholic parish in Dyersville, Iowa - at one time had Latin masses at noon every Sunday.  (They don't now).  Back in my Catholic days I went to a few of those Latin Masses because I was curious to see what Mass was like for my parents when they were growing up.  And I always figured if the priest was authorized to conduct an approved Mass it was good enough. 

When I swam the Thames in 2012 I was so glad to find the prayers used were the ones I had grown up with and not the ones conservatives tried to force upon Catholics even though other less Conservative Catholics had come up with better translations.  Of course now the Episcopal Church wants to remove "and from the son" from the Nicene Creed just as I was finally getting used to saying, "in accordance with the scriptures."

A few interesting things the Episcopal parish in Dubuque did was to have their service ad orientem using an earlier rite.  I was at the altar for that servie.  The parish reached their 175th anniversary in 2020 conducted a service according to the service used in 1845.  (This was delayed a bit because of COVID-19).  I wish I could've been there for that but I was in Minnesota already.

30 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

I recall reading when I was prepping for conversion to become a Catholic that the reforms of Vatican II were an effort to return the Church to what it was in earlier centuries,  Much of the Tridentine Mass came from the Counter Reformation, as I understand it.  The second Vatican Council wanted the laity involved in the liturgy so yes, the Mass was now in the vernacular.  The laity could now receive the Eucharist in their hands and drink from the Cup.  We had lay readers  of the Old Testament, Psalm and Epistles during Mass and the laity could help distribute communion if needed.  We even had girls serve at the altar.  That is no longer the case in the US Church, of course.

Something else I remember is that it seemed like the Roman church at one time actually wanted to adhere more to a vision of the church outlined in Acts 15:22-29.

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Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter: “The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers[c] who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings.  Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.  We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth.  For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

 

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I could think of a few hateful and contradictory bishops here in the USA that need to be given this very treatment.

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21 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

He has been found guilty and excommunicated.

Here is an article about it (link).

That didn't take long.  I figured on it being a long drawn out process.  Here's the statement from the Vatican.

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On 7/6/2024 at 8:53 AM, Bluebirdbluebell said:

He has been found guilty and excommunicated.

Here is an article about it (link).

11 hours ago, 47of74 said:

That didn't take long.  I figured on it being a long drawn out process.  Here's the statement from the Vatican.

Wouldn't it be amazing if the Vatican could act as strongly with CSA offenders. I guess it's just further (unneeded) proof the church is concerned more with preserving their hierarchy than protecting victims of assault.

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On 6/26/2024 at 5:55 PM, PennySycamore said:

I recall reading when I was prepping for conversion to become a Catholic that the reforms of Vatican II were an effort to return the Church to what it was in earlier centuries,  Much of the Tridentine Mass came from the Counter Reformation, as I understand it.  The second Vatican Council wanted the laity involved in the liturgy so yes, the Mass was now in the vernacular.

I just remembered something else too.  During the first centuries the church operated mainly using Hebrew, Syriac (a dialect of Aramaic), and Greek.  When Christianity was legalized by Constantine in the fourth century it spread throughout the Empire and switched over to Latin since that was the primary language of the Empire at the time. 

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ABC:  Unlike defrocking, a punitive measure that makes a priest a layman again, excommunication is considered a “medicinal” penalty and is declared in hope those who incurred it would repent and come back into communion. If that happens, the Holy See can lift the penalty. 

Viganò has gone around the bend into wing-nut conspiracy land. He's not coming back. 

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19 hours ago, Howl said:

ABC:  Unlike defrocking, a punitive measure that makes a priest a layman again, excommunication is considered a “medicinal” penalty and is declared in hope those who incurred it would repent and come back into communion. If that happens, the Holy See can lift the penalty. 

Viganò has gone around the bend into wing-nut conspiracy land. He's not coming back. 

Another thing is that Viganò is still considered an Archbishop even though he's been excommunicated.  But if he keeps going then he might be laicization - loss of clerical state.

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Loss of the clerical state is not ordinarily a penalty imposed for schism, since the law presumes first the application of “medicinal penalties,” intended to effect the offender’s repentance and which can be lifted later. 

But canon law states that laicization, which is a perpetual penalty, can be imposed for schism if the person found guilty is judged to be obstinate in their crime, or “the gravity of scandal demands it.”

Viganò appeared to affirm the substance of the charges against him in his response to them, in which he suggested Pope Francis and Vatican Council II represent a cancer in the Church. 

Having been charged with breaking communion with the pope, who he referred to in his press release as “Jorge Maria Bergoglio,” Viganò said: “I believe that the very wording of the charges confirms the theses that I have repeatedly supported in my interventions.”

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/8/2024 at 11:59 AM, 47of74 said:

Another thing is that Viganò is still considered an Archbishop even though he's been excommunicated.  But if he keeps going then he might be laicization - loss of clerical state.

So he still has a vote in who the next pope is? 

That makes no sense.

Edited by Bluebirdbluebell
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

So he still has a vote in who the next pope is? 

That makes no sense.

No, he wouldn't have had it in any case even if he was still in good standing.  Viganó would have to be a Cardinal, he was just an Archbishop when he got kicked out.  Plus all Cardinals - whether they're in good standing or not - lose the right to vote in the conclave when they turn 80.  Viganó is 83 years old.  So when Francis passes or retires Viganó won't have a role in the next conclave. 

Edited by 47of74
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