Dads with "Live and Let Live" Personalities Impossible to Fit into Conservative Church Culture?

[Khendra]

I'm starting to come to the realization that my family and I have never fit into conservative church culture very well because my dad is a very "live and let live" sort of guy.

While he has strong faith, he's just never been the churchgoing sort, and he admitted to me recently that he's never been able to interact with other Christians very much, even on the Internet.  He allowed me to marry an unbeliever (because my dad believes people can be saved after they die -- a belief you pretty much NEVER find among other conservative Christians), I never was given super strict gender roles growing up (my dad was never against women working or anything like that -- in fact, after my mom died in 2018, his girlfriend since then is a very business-oriented sort who has lots of successful ventures herself), and is basically the opposite of the authoritarian, rules and regulations sort that are found more often in conservative Christian ranks.  I mean, my dad liked Trump unfortunately because Trump was a businessman, but that's about the extent of his "conservativeness."  He NEVER posts moral or theological screeds on social media, he thinks Super Bowl halftime shows are great and has no concept of modesty culture for women, and is basically just an easygoing, fun-loving sort who never likes to worry about or judge anything.

Growing up in that kind of environment, it's been challenging trying to fit into any sort of conservative church culture.  I think women especially are judged largely by their father's and husband's influence, and when you have a dad like I have, and an unbelieving husband like I do, it seems the best that can be done is just sort of blend quietly into the church, because most people there are going to find my family situation very weird and atypical.  It wasn't even just the Niednagels who found out my family and I weren't like theirs; often in even more moderate conservative church cultures, I find my situation is still very much the exception to the norm.

Have any of you seen men like my dad among your circles?  Do they and their families get largely ignored or shunned as well?

Edited August 26, 2021 by Coconut Flan

[Columbia]

While I didn’t grow up in any ATI/VF-raque circles, I have heard from those who did that when fathers were the ones to pull the family into the cult there was usually a lot more abuse than when mothers were the first ones to get on the bandwagon. It doesn’t surprise me. High control men would like a position that puts them at the top of everything. 

[MamaJunebug]

21 hours ago, Khendra said:

He allowed me to marry an unbeliever (because my dad believes people can be saved after they die -- a belief you pretty much NEVER find among other conservative Christians),

@Khendra, nice to see you back here!

I was listening to a conservative Lutheran pastor (cLp) chatting with other cLp’s on cLradio one day. I  was startled & delighted that he said “it might be that after they die,  people who didn’t believe are shown that Jesus is truly G-d and have that last chance to believe.”

SO startled & delighted, I didn’t think to write down his name, but did listen closely to his fellow conversationalists & they didn’t react in shock nor censure. 

We all believe something or nothing happens when we die; we none of us know for sure what that is.  
 

My own dad was strongly faithful. Near the end of his life, I’d throw out various conversation topics to keep him engaged. Once, I floated some new controversy within the LC-MS and he smiled wearily, waved his hand benignly & said, “Ah … we know what we believe.”

 

He had been very “into” theology earlier, especially when a great schism occurred in the … ‘70s? (Seminex)

 

But I have come to suspect that he was really paying attention over the years. One of his beloved sisters was mad in love with a fine fellow - a physician - who happened to be Catholic, & the parents quashed that.  Simply for the denominational reason. 
 

That sister eventually married a … not a ne’er-do-well, exactly: a half-arsed-do-well, let’s say.  And a committed agnostic to boot.  Her life could’ve been SO much better …. and Dad saw that.

 

In any case, my dad briefly became involved in church beyond attending services.  When the pastor at that time turned out to be a Napoleonic little dude, Dad shrugged off his volunteer / board position and remained a faithful attender til he couldn’t.

 

So, other than reminiscing, I’m not much help at answering your Q.  Conservative Lutheranism used to have its high-control aspects.  In my family most of my dad’s disproportional “say” as boss was due more to him being educated (Mom was not, thru no fault of her own); & the only breadwinner. And he was never abusive.

 

But my opinion is: yes, easy-going guys don't get dangerously involved in high-control organizations.  

Intriguing question! 

Edited August 27, 2021 by MamaJunebug

[Khendra]

Wow, that's amazing!

Yes, I poke around here a little now and then (because this is one of the few places where I can talk about Brain Types, and the odd theology they used to be into), but thankfully I'm doing much better than when I first came here.  Husband and I have a little one on the way, and I'm no longer under the terror of thinking my dad wasn't patriarchal enough, that my Brain Type isn't moral enough, or that the Niednagels have all the answers (they don't).  One can remain faithful to God without buying into everything the hyperconservative Niednagels obsess over and believe.

[MomKB]

This is an interesting question that highlights how patriarchy/comp doctrine hurts men as well as women. I think it depends on the church. Some churches are more laid back even if they are conservative. Others focus on various aspects of patriarchy. The church I grew up in was super patriarchal. One of their big things was having all men speak in the services, whether or not they wanted to or were any good at it. (or had any clue when to stop speaking) Women could not participate at all, not even to read Scripture aloud. They didn't have a pastor, so it was a big thing to have men take turns speaking. My dad was a great speaker but kind of shy, so I think he felt pressured. I'm sure other guys did as well. Meanwhile there were many gifted women who were silenced.

I attended an SBC church for awhile where the pastors made a big thing about men being the leaders in their families. Ironically, I think the pastor himself was naturally more of a laid back guy, but felt pressured by his wife that he wasn't being enough of a leader. She was stricter than he was with the kids, etc. So he and the other pastor were always going on about men being the leaders. I think this puts a lot of pressure and guilt on men who are more laid back. And, as noted above, encourages controlling men to be even more controlling or abusive.

Neither of these patriarchal churches did any of the Gothard/SAHD stuff. Most of the girls and women were well educated, and many worked outside the home. (One even became a doctor, with her super patriarchal/controlling dad helping her finance med school.) They also wore pants and weren't KJV only. The first one didn't push politics at all. 

As far as an woman with an non-Christian husband, I think they would have been happy to have her attend the church, while encouraging her to be "godly" and submissive.

Eventually, I was able to extricate myself from the sexism and misogyny while remaining a Christian. I'm 100% egalitarian now, and my faith is still very important to me. I currently don't attend church. CBE International and Marg Mowczko are two good egalitarian Christian resources that I would recommend.

Edited August 27, 2021 by MomKB
typo

[Alisamer]

21 minutes ago, Khendra said:

 Husband and I have a little one on the way, and I'm no longer under the terror of thinking my dad wasn't patriarchal enough, that my Brain Type isn't moral enough, or that the Niednagels have all the answers (they don't).  One can remain faithful to God without buying into everything the hyperconservative Niednagels obsess over and believe.

Congrats on the little one! The majority of the theological discussion is way above my comprehension - I grew up in a fundie-lite leaning SBC and currently occasionally attend a much more liberal Baptist church. But lately I've realized I really don't care what the church (any church) says or decrees. I believe what I believe, and I've come to those beliefs on my own. 

I guess you could say I'm personally into the idea of every person's relationship with God being a personal thing that is not anyone else's business as long as nobody's being harmed. That said, I'm a more laid back person, as is my dad. My dad was never the "I'm in charge" type - I think he and my mom made most decisions together based on who knew the most about what the particular issue was. 

So in my opinion, no matter your brain type or how patriarchal you are (or preferably aren't, IMO), you are enough. I don't think God really meant us to live in fear. 

Good to see you back here!

Edited August 27, 2021 by Alisamer

[Khendra]

Thanks everyone!

I admit these kinds of issues have weighed on me for quite some time, and it's been a lot to process what it all means, and what should best be done about it.  It's so weird to think you're part of a group, then you learn more about what the group believes and does on a number of issues, find you and your family don't fit, and then get confused.

For an easygoing guy like my dad, he doesn't worry about this stuff.  But for a woman in the church like me, it's hard not to worry, because you and your family are essentially being judged, and you're wondering if these people really are the arbiters between you and God.  You wonder, were/are my parents really saved?  Were/are they moral enough?  Were/are they well-versed in Scripture enough?  Should I be following these other people's ways and methods instead of what my parents taught?

I remember when the Niednagels and their family/friends really wanted to break up my engagement on Facebook.  That's the one time my dad really stepped in and told them to knock it off, and that they had no authority over me.  This was in 2014.  Husband and I got married in 2016.

Sometimes, we all end up getting involved in things that went far beyond whatever we initially imagined.  The Niednagels didn't really promote their beliefs much on social media until about a decade ago; I'd been aware of their system since the late 1990s, and their web site since 2001, but it was 2011 when I started to notice they had some theology that was a bit foreign to how I was raised.  As I learned more and more in the coming years, it became very hard for me to deal with.  I'd already graduated college, but with the recession going on, and then this foreign theology coming from people who I thought had all the answers...the 2010s were a hard time.  Then I learned my family and I allegedly had one of the least favorable Brain Types, learned we differed theologically in a number of ways...this was all at the time I was trying to find jobs, my mom had COPD, I was wondering if I had autism (diagnosed in 2014), so it was very stressful.  I'd amassed all this knowledge of the Brain Type system, and now their theology, and no one I knew was aware of it or could make sense of it.  Definitely was torn between them and my family for the longest time, even if my family was somewhat oblivious until around 2014 or so.

I digress, sorry.  I really have come to terms with this more in recent months, but this was a long time to deal with confusion and frustration.  My dad is just different from these sorts, and I'm much less naive to differences among Christians than I was when I was younger.  If nothing else, this painful learning experience has equipped me to deal with whatever challenges may come along for my future child, God willing.

Anyway, thanks again everyone.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Khendra

[MamaJunebug]

@Khendra, had missed the baby news!  Wonderful! May everything go very, very well fir you both.

And … Niednagel’s meddling in a betrothal on Facebook? Those people can NOT get any weirder … I hope.