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The Orthodox Sex Guru


Rachel333

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https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/magazine/the-orthodox-sex-guru.html

I thought this was a really interesting article. Fascinating, but sad to see how little some women learn about sex.

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 “They have zero — zero — connection to pleasure,” Marcus said. “And there’s no vocabulary to start with them. We have an intake form to fill out, and they get to ‘orgasm’ and go to the receptionist and ask, ‘What is this?' ” When Marcus begins to explore whether they’ve ever been aroused, they have no understanding of the concept.

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One morning at the burnished round table where she talks with her patients, Marcus handed me a bride’s manual given out by kallah teachers. This particular book was written for the modern Orthodox; it is relatively progressive. The clitoris, for instance, is mentioned twice. Even so, the overwhelming emphasis is on the wife’s responsibility to keep the relationship on the right side of the law. The Talmud “indicates that during marital relations, the husband may not look at or kiss the wife’s makom ervah,” her private place, the manual warns. The lights should be off, a sheet should cover the couple, the position should be missionary — the wife is charged with keeping sex spiritual, keeping it chaste.

If she doesn’t, a parable in the introduction implies, God’s Chosen may “fall over the edge” of a cliff. “And that book,” Marcus reminded me, “is modern.” 

 

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No surprise at all. I always figured in the religious world - marriage, children & even sex - was always seen as like a job to these people. I've always wondered - do these women actually *truly* love their husbands, or are they just getting married because it's written in The "Torah". Are they even getting pleasure from intimacy with their spouses, too? I mean, it's not like it's a sin! Of course, only us non-religious folks know that. :my_shy: Being in Yeshivah, I've always wondered these things about my teachers (who were not so much older than myself, at 18...) once they got married - plus, it's taught that a couple can't even show intimacy in public, around people, since it's so "holy" and all...but I can only imagine what it's really like behind closed doors.

And yeah, the last thing any teacher is going to teach in these Private schools that Orthodox girls attend (can't speak for the boys) is sex. We sure didn't learn about that or ANYTHING even close to it, and my school wasn't even considered that religious - more like trying to convert us into being religious & observant. It didn't work for me, thankfully, lol. I'll stick to my "secular" lifestyle, thanks.

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Fascinating! Also emphasizes how fundamentalists of various stripes totally suppress sexuality in young women and then expect these suppressed and ignorant young women to magically bloom on their wedding night. 

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I can't get over the fact that she has jars of coconut oil. Now I'm thinking of Lori and her "10 minutes ministry". :brainbleach:

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Quite honestly, this cuts across both religious and secular levels, though I certainly acknowledge that legalistic lifestyles will repress people even further.

Anyway, now that I'm in my thirties and have many years of exposure to modern Western culture, including having read a lot of Internet posts over the years on the subject of sex, and having heard all the jokes about women being frigid and such -- it's evident to me that society has regrettably and successfully brainwashed a lot of women into thinking they somehow cannot get aroused or excited by men, and that even when they are, they try to deny it or downplay it.

One of the nice things about growing up in a household where I wasn't initially over-exposed to people's opinions and dogmas is that I grew up without these preconceptions.  When I hit puberty, I noticed that attractive men made me react in very specific ways and caused me a unique sort of pleasure that I hadn't experienced before.  No one had ever told me drivel that I can't be visually stimulated, that the male body was supposed to never be beautiful, that I allegedly needed additional romantic gestures to get in the mood, and all the other stereotypes we hear endlessly about women these days.

Instead, as a teen, I developed quite the addiction to surfing softcore porn pics of men.  This was really thrilling, and it was a very difficult habit to break.  Marriage helped me deal with happily acting on the desires that a pleasing male form creates within me :)  but as with the stereotype of men, I still have to look away when I see other "hot" guys so as to remain honorable to husband.  I know what temptation is and how hard it can be to resist.

As a result of all this, I get very irritated when both men and women try to assert some universal dogma that women cannot be aroused sexually, or that it's somehow fundamentally different for us.  There are amazing looking guys out there, and they can be extremely titillating in all their physical assets.

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(If a woman is unsure whether her period has begun, she’ll put her underwear in a plastic baggie, which her husband takes to a rabbi, who inspects the spotting and renders a decision.)

Rabbi: a great job for underwear perverts.

This sounds so demeaning and abusive to me...

Anyway, I know the uncertaintly might refer to non-period vaginal secretions but I can't help thinking that  females who can't tell whether they're having their period or not might not be mature enough to be having sex anyway.

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1 hour ago, AmazonGrace said:

Rabbi: a great job for underwear perverts.

This sounds so demeaning and abusive to me...

Anyway, I know the uncertaintly might refer to non-period vaginal secretions but I can't help thinking that  females who can't tell whether they're having their period or not might not be mature enough to be having sex anyway.

I just can't fathom any man (or woman!) having that much access to my personal business not to mention that much control over the same.  I am not squeamish, nor prude, just a very private person .  This sort of thing would give me blue fits.

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4 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

Rabbi: a great job for underwear perverts.

This sounds so demeaning and abusive to me...

Anyway, I know the uncertaintly might refer to non-period vaginal secretions but I can't help thinking that  females who can't tell whether they're having their period or not might not be mature enough to be having sex anyway.

It's not just underwear. There's also a practice where women swipe a cloth inside their vagina and if there's any questions the rabbi inspects the cloth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hefsek_taharah

It does seem incredibly invasive. That's just one more thing that I imagine would have to be really difficult for young married women to get used to after being taught to be extremely modest all their lives.

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It's really weird how modesty takes different forms.

There's a Muslim woman where I work who covers every part of her body except the face and the hands (with special buttoned sleeves to cover the wrists) - and yet she told the entire open plan office that she was on her period once, and therefore allowed to eat during Ramadan, and another time proudly announced that she was three weeks pregnant. Again to about 20 people both male and female - and while we work together we don't really know each other that well outside of work. And then she'll make a big song and dance about not shaking hands with male colleagues. We've also been treated to graphic descriptions of her childbirths - which actually doesn't annoy me because I think it's interesting information that isn't shared that much and may be helpful to me if I ever give birth. But that doesn't mean everyone in the office shares my view on this, some people would rather stick to discussing the weather, sports and business matters.

For me showing my hair, arms, ankles etc. to everyone is normal, shaking hands with male colleagues is a matter of basic good manners, but what's happening in my uterus? Strictly my own business, and to a certain extend my partner's, and no one else's. That's modesty how I understand it.

These Orthodox women must have a different understanding, closer to my colleague's, where covering their hair = modesty but showing the world a blood-stained rag = public business.

I guess it's all about how you've been brought up and what kinds of standards prevail in your community.

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Even secular women can be very ignorant about their bodies. When we went to a fertility doctor for the first time, we were told what sex is - penis in vagina. Apparently some couples were doing it wrong & then were surprised that they didn't get pregnant. We already had a child so we had done it right! 

 

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2 hours ago, Chocolatedefrauded said:

Even secular women can be very ignorant about their bodies. When we went to a fertility doctor for the first time, we were told what sex is - penis in vagina. Apparently some couples were doing it wrong & then were surprised that they didn't get pregnant. We already had a child so we had done it right! 

 

I have a [much, much] older cousin who had that problem Their failure to conceive was an interesting case for her doctor, because a) after a few years of marriage her hymen was still intact, and b ) her anus showed signs of, erm. overuse. Her fundie husband  was a closeted homosexual and only knew one place to put his penis.

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5 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

I have a [much, much] older cousin who had that problem Their failure to conceive was an interesting case for her doctor, because a) after a few years of marriage her hymen was still intact, and b ) her anus showed signs of, erm. overuse. Her fundie husband  was a closeted homosexual and only knew one place to put his penis.

The piece of skin sometimes referred to as a hymen really is not an indicator of having had PIV sex though. Some will not have this feature at all and some have it for life even if they have had sex. The skin is stretchy in that area and if there is no force it might never break, at least if the woman doesn't have a vaginal birth. At that time there is usually at least a little tearing but I think it might even be teoretically possible to be intact after birth but unlikely. How do I know? Well, if virginity is based on an intact hymen my daughter is the new Christ. 

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You know, I think even baptist fundies can have fun during sex and not only stick to missionary. The official catholic stance is that sex should end with ejaculation inside the woman's vagina, but nobody limits the positions or requires the light to be off. It is prety sad, honestly, that the people are taught that their intimate parts are dirty and shameful and unclean even during sex. 

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14 hours ago, elliha said:

The piece of skin sometimes referred to as a hymen really is not an indicator of having had PIV sex though. Some will not have this feature at all and some have it for life even if they have had sex. The skin is stretchy in that area and if there is no force it might never break, at least if the woman doesn't have a vaginal birth. At that time there is usually at least a little tearing but I think it might even be teoretically possible to be intact after birth but unlikely. How do I know? Well, if virginity is based on an intact hymen my daughter is the new Christ. 

In this case it was failure to conceive plus excessive wear and tear on the rectum that was the smoking gun, as it were. And they went on to conceive several children after getting some basic education from the doctor.

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8 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

In this case it was failure to conceive plus excessive wear and tear on the rectum that was the smoking gun, as it were. And they went on to conceive several children after getting some basic education from the doctor.

Doctors do try to eliminate all possible errors when it comes to infertility so, yes, they make sure that you are actually doing things the right way but I am mostly considering stories like this as part of urban legend rather than truth until I hear one where the person her/himself admits to being part of one of the couples that couldn't conceive due to not actually knowing where to put it. It is like how you might get stupid questions when you call computer support (Is the device plugged in?). Most of the time that really isn't what is wrong but why waste time if it is solved that way. 

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3 hours ago, elliha said:

It is like how you might get stupid questions when you call computer support (Is the device plugged in?). Most of the time that really isn't what is wrong but why waste time if it is solved that way. 

Raises hand.  I used to have a note posted on my computer: "Reboot computer before making panic stricken phone calls to tech support."  It was amazing how many times this prevented making panic stricken phone calls to tech support.   Now back to your regular programming.   

I simply do not allow myself to think about all the things that can go wrong between two people not raised on a farm and totally, completely, utterly ignorant about sex and who are trying to mate.   

 

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The checking things are plugged is very important.  I walked into the office many mornings when I was working to lines of people with problems.  The fax machine was a frequent flyer.  The first thing I looked for was power lights and the second that it had a phone connection.  I seldom had to do more than that. 

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28 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

The checking things are plugged is very important.  I walked into the office many mornings when I was working to lines of people with problems.  The fax machine was a frequent flyer.  The first thing I looked for was power lights and the second that it had a phone connection.  I seldom had to do more than that. 

I also posted a note above the copier/fax: "Machine does not respond to voice commands"  to address people who yelled when things didn't go well. 

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I've got a weird issue with my computer that can be temporary resolves if I reboot it "the right way" :P

 

Anyhow, I've read some bizarre things on FJ, but 'keeping sex chaste' takes the cake.  (Though that does depend somewhat on which of the many dictionary definitions of chaste you use there.)

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A while back, there was a documentary Trembling Before G-d that DH and I watched and it broke our hearts.  Just wanted to adopt those LGBT Orthodox kids.  Their world works for the ones who can conform without thinking but it is hell on earth for the thinkers and anyone outside the norm 

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3 hours ago, Soulhuntress said:

A while back, there was a documentary Trembling Before G-d that DH and I watched and it broke our hearts.  Just wanted to adopt those LGBT Orthodox kids.  Their world works for the ones who can conform without thinking but it is hell on earth for the thinkers and anyone outside the norm 

Disclaimer: this is a comment about the Haredi or Ultra Orthodox Jewish communities which are cloistered not Judaism as a whole.... :)    

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I'd recommend Disobedience - a novel by Naomi Alderman about being gay in an Orthodox community.

It's fiction, obviously, but still pretty powerful.

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