Courtship vs Dating

[xReems]

Over the weekend, I spent the Sunday with my roommate/friend and her mother. We got on the topic of dating and how strict they were with my roommate in high school. She wasn't allowed to call boys and dating in high school could only occur in odd groups (so, 4 girls and 5 boys). However, now that we're in college, her mother encourages her date and TRUSTS her daughter being alone with a guy.

It was a similar situation with me, except I was not allowed to date until college. My dad's reasoning behind it was in middle/high school, it's mainly about looks and who is popular but when you're in college, you start looking at other aspects (personality, family, future career, etc). Both my mom and dad are completely aware I spend a lot of alone time with my boyfriend of 3 years in my apartment but they, like my roommate's parents, TRUST me and know that they can't be there 24/7 to watch me. They know that I am an adult and I need to learn about life and myself on my own without someone holding my hand. By doing this, I was able to get to know my boyfriend on a more personal level without any distractions. We've been able to open up with one another and talk about just about anything and everything without feeling awkward about it since it's just the two of us.

This got me thinking about some fundies who believe in monitoring courtships/engagements; how are you suppose to know someone on a more personal level when you have someone hovering over you? If my boyfriend's sister was listening in, I would have lied about some things just to please her and their family just because I would feel weird not being able to open up about everything. For example, I'm sure Anna had no idea just how self centered Josh is during their courtship/engagement since he probably did not show that side of him with all his siblings surrounding him, so how are you suppose to truly know your significant other then? I'm not saying that if you're not alone, your relationship will fail because there are couples who have survived and are still together, however, with all this strict monitoring and rules, is it even possible?

Another thing-Gil and Kelly, Jim Bob and Michelle, both claim that Zach/Sarah and Josh/Anna chose to refrain certain things until marriage, yet it makes me wonder if it's something they really wanted or were scared into choosing a particular path. They make it sound like as if dating is a horrible thing and leads to crazy sex parties but there are so many couples around the world who chose dating and are perfectly fine. My boyfriend is aware of my "baggage" and I'm aware of his "baggage" but neither of us have felt that it has effected our relationship in anyway. We know it's in the past and that's where it's been. Yes, some people kiss/have sex/touch before marriage but what makes them think that courtship is any better? Because it's closely monitored so "bad things" don't happen? Because "God" helps them find their true love? Yes, I put God in quotes because it pisses me off when fundies use God for everything as their excuse for what they do. Parents claim God chose a particular man for their daughter but we know it's the father who had the most input. It probably explains why the Botkin girls, Duggar girls, etc are still single; it's not God who picks their future spouse but their beloved dad.

What's your opinion on courtship?

[CanadianHippie]

I think courtship has the potential to be used effectively, I also don't think that it usually is being used effectively. The idea behind it is to get to know the person you are interested in as a person with a chaperon to prevent anyone from doing anything they would regret. The way the fundies do it, it seems more like they only do it so they can say "see? we don't send these kids off the altar to marry someone they don't know. They meet first!" You need to spend more than a few months hanging out once every couple of weeks in order to get to know them. Courting should take as long as any dating relationship takes before you agree to get engaged to the person.

There are things that people who date experience in their relationships that fundies seem to be afraid of. Arguments, breaking up, having a few minutes alone to know that this person isn't acting a certain way just to please the chaperon. You figure out if you can stand touching them, kissing them, snuggling up to the, and in many cases even sleep with them. You learn how to work as a couple before you marry them. You can get most of these from a courtship if you allow them to happen.

[clibbyjo]

MEH, I have seen my fundie nieces break 3 courtships so far. How can you get to know someone when you always have company? I am not going to talk about my inter most thoughts and dreams with your mother listening in,you know?

[moreorlessnu]

I wonder how these young girls/women, who have never dated know whether they have chemistry w/ their intended. Since they have no experience, they might find a young man pleasant, but they might have no idea the depth of chemistry you need to have w/ someone to have a successful romantic/sexual relationship w/ them. By the time they find out, they might be stuck w/ someone they simply aren't attracted to.

Anna also made is sound like she didn't know the mechanics of sex until her mother told her right before she was married. You have to wonder if they know just how 'up close and personal' they are going to get w/ their future husband.

[Kitty]

There are things that people who date experience in their relationships that fundies seem to be afraid of. Arguments, breaking up, having a few minutes alone to know that this person isn't acting a certain way just to please the chaperon. You figure out if you can stand touching them, kissing them, snuggling up to the, and in many cases even sleep with them. You learn how to work as a couple before you marry them. You can get most of these from a courtship if you allow them to happen.

^ holy shit, this. Even just leaving a couple in the living room for a few minutes wouldn't do any harm. Fundies seem terrified of arguments and breaking up, so their solution is to get the couple married as quickly as possible, before they get to know each other, and teach the wife to always submit. Submit, submit, submit.

I read something about Jim Bob only ever having dated/courted Michelle, though Michelle had dated a guy or two before Jim Bob and so she had "baggage." WTF.

I think dating several people is normal and healthy. Humans are made for serial monogamy, really. I can't imagine being tied to any of my exes for the rest of my life. Especially the one who refused to respect my boundaries. Honestly I think I'd be worse off being married to him, especially if I didn't already know what he was like since we would never have been allowed to touch. Thinking about this is making me feel sick. :(

I can't even imagine never being left alone with my current boyfriend, and always having to submit to him. What attracts him to me is the fact that I'm very independent and even dominant (but not like, patriarch dominant or crazy feminazi dominant). I also can't imagine not being able to hug and kiss him, or even hold his hand. That's just like... we'd never get to know each other, ever. He's a great guy, sure, but you really don't know anyone- ANYONE- until you've spent some time alone with them. Even family members, or roommates, or friends.

I think that fundies are willfully ignorant of human psychology and biology, and do not trust even those closest to them. What a sad existence... I don't think any of the Duggar siblings truly know each other, or that Smuggs and Anna do.

[bananacat]

If I ever have children, I would actually advise them to have sex before marriage, and even live together first. Sex isn't the only aspect of compatibility, but it's still an important one and I wouldn't want them to end up sexually incompatible with someone they will be with forever.

I also don't have a problem with teenagers dating or even having sex, even if it's for the "wrong" reasons. I intend to teach my children about safe sex and then trust them to make the right choices.

I think there is a fundamental disagreement between me and fundies that means we will never agree on dating/courtship. I think that sex is a normal, healthy part of life for most people and I don't have a problem with people having multiple partners throughout a lifetime. I don't think it will damage teenagers emotionally to experiment, and I don't think it makes them impure. I think sex is something to enjoy and not something to be afraid of.

[xReems]

I agree! I think they're too worried about their children running off and having unlimited sex so they try to monitor every aspect of their lives until marriage when their husbands can continue it.

Seriously, leaving couples alone for an hour is not going to do any harm, especially if they're both mature and share similar beliefs. Temptation is going to be around whether you're courting or dating but if you both are committed to those beliefs, I highly doubt you'll sexually attack one another when you're left alone.

Ugh, I hated it when Jim Bob referred to Michelle's ex-boyfriend as "baggages." It just shows how much self esteem and self confidence he lacks. I don't think I've ever heard of someone being effected by their significant other's "baggage" unless they still have feelings.

This is why Josh and Anna piss me off so much because they go off giving marriage advice as if they know how to have a successful marriage. Please, my boyfriend and I have been together for 3.5 years, we could do circles around your marriage. Plus, I would rather go to a couple who has been together for longer than 25 years.

[Daenerys]

I wonder how these young girls/women, who have never dated know whether they have chemistry w/ their intended. Since they have no experience, they might find a young man pleasant, but they might have no idea the depth of chemistry you need to have w/ someone to have a successful romantic/sexual relationship w/ them. By the time they find out, they might be stuck w/ someone they simply aren't attracted to.

Anna also made is sound like she didn't know the mechanics of sex until her mother told her right before she was married. You have to wonder if they know just how 'up close and personal' they are going to get w/ their future husband.

I doubt I'm the only one who thought I was totally in love with my first boyfriend. I wasn't.

Poor girl. It really hurts the first time, as well. I can't imagine how frightening that must be if you don't know what to expect, and probably feel obligated to do it on the night, to please your incredibly sexually frustrated husband.

Where did you get that idea from?

[CanadianHippie]

MEH, I have seen my fundie nieces break 3 courtships so far. How can you get to know someone when you always have company? I am not going to talk about my inter most thoughts and dreams with your mother listening in,you know?

If you're are incapable of having a quiet conversation with someone so that the person 10 feet away can't hear you, that's fine. But not everyone is unable to do it. Just because there is a chaperon, doesn't mean that person is going to be right up in your face at every turn listening to every single thing you say.

[clibbyjo]

If you're are incapable of having a quiet conversation with someone so that the person 10 feet away can't hear you, that's fine. But not everyone is unable to do it. Just because there is a chaperon, doesn't mean that person is going to be right up in your face at every turn listening to every single thing you say.

Yeah, they pretty much are in your face in my sisters house.The boyfriends(courting boys) can only be in the living room or kitchen, so one of the other adult(or older teen) kids or my sister will sit there playing board games or cards with them(no tv/movies). They ALL (the whole family) will sit in the living room together and talk.NO TOUCHING. If they want to go to Target, one of the kids will ride in the car with them and walk around the store with them. They are never alone to discuss anything in private. They cannot even go out to dinner without a chaperone, and the girls are now 23 and 24.

[lexiloumarie]

I wish I wasn't on my phone, there is a series of posts on the Mortons old site that would be a goldmine for a discussion like this. All about purity and boundaries. According to Mr Morton Sr., he waits till right before the wedding to explain as he called it "the way of a gentleman and his maiden."

[tehgoobster]

I wish I wasn't on my phone, there is a series of posts on the Mortons old site that would be a goldmine for a discussion like this. All about purity and boundaries. According to Mr Morton Sr., he waits till right before the wedding to explain as he called it "the way of a gentleman and his maiden."

Imagine hearing about sex for the first time a month before your wedding? Yikes! Also, it's one thing to know the basics of what goes where, but it's quite another to be able to do it well. I hope someone gives fundie newlyweds a sex manual or something, but even then, can you imagine how awkward it would be to get The Joy of Sex or the Kama Sutra from your parents or your in-laws? :lol:

[CanadianHippie]

Yeah, they pretty much are in your face in my sisters house.The boyfriends(courting boys) can only be in the living room or kitchen, so one of the other adult(or older teen) kids or my sister will sit there playing board games or cards with them(no tv/movies). They ALL (the whole family) will sit in the living room together and talk.NO TOUCHING. If they want to go to Target, one of the kids will ride in the car with them and walk around the store with them. They are never alone to discuss anything in private. They cannot even go out to dinner without a chaperone, and the girls are now 23 and 24.

Which is part of the problem with Fundie courtship. A chaperon needs to know when to step back and let the couple talk. He/she is only there to make sure the two don't give in to urges, not police every single thing they do.

[ThisOlGirl]

I wish I wasn't on my phone, there is a series of posts on the Mortons old site that would be a goldmine for a discussion like this. All about purity and boundaries. According to Mr Morton Sr., he waits till right before the wedding to explain as he called it "the way of a gentleman and his maiden."

"The Way of a Gentleman and His Maiden???? That gives me the giggles and the dry heaves at the same time.

[CanadianHippie]

I wish I wasn't on my phone, there is a series of posts on the Mortons old site that would be a goldmine for a discussion like this. All about purity and boundaries. According to Mr Morton Sr., he waits till right before the wedding to explain as he called it "the way of a gentleman and his maiden."

Question, does that mean his kids didn't know about sex until their wedding day? Or is there some other thing I've not heard of that they do?

[PBrooke]

I wish I wasn't on my phone, there is a series of posts on the Mortons old site that would be a goldmine for a discussion like this. All about purity and boundaries. According to Mr Morton Sr., he waits till right before the wedding to explain as he called it "the way of a gentleman and his maiden."

Maaaaybe somehow Katie was in the dark about mechanics of sex (though none of them were clueless about the gore of childbirth, so it seems silly if that's the case). Even if the Morton boys managed to make it nearly twenty without formally learning about sex, I imagine once the first one learned it, he'd share the knowledge with his brothers... right? Do we seriously believe Cleve has no clue about the birds and the bees?

[CanadianHippie]

I find it hard to believe that any child that wasn't raised locked in a closet knows nothing about sex. Even in fundieland.

[clibbyjo]

Maaaaybe somehow Katie was in the dark about mechanics of sex (though none of them were clueless about the gore of childbirth, so it seems silly if that's the case). Even if the Morton boys managed to make it nearly twenty without formally learning about sex, I imagine once the first one learned it, he'd share the knowledge with his brothers... right? Do we seriously believe Cleve has no clue about the birds and the bees?

I am betting Cleve has an idea what to do...

[lexiloumarie]

Question, does that mean his kids didn't know about sex until their wedding day? Or is there some other thing I've not heard of that they do?

Pretty sure he said he takes them out a few days before, but basically yes, these kids are deciding to get married without knowing what they're agreeing to The post was all about protecting theory purity according to him. It was a fascinating/disturbing read.

If you use Google advance search with the old blog as the domain and courtship as the search term it should come up.

[Guest Anonymous]

If I ever have children, I would actually advise them to have sex before marriage, and even live together first. Sex isn't the only aspect of compatibility, but it's still an important one and I wouldn't want them to end up sexually incompatible with someone they will be with forever.

I also don't have a problem with teenagers dating or even having sex, even if it's for the "wrong" reasons. I intend to teach my children about safe sex and then trust them to make the right choices.

I think there is a fundamental disagreement between me and fundies that means we will never agree on dating/courtship. I think that sex is a normal, healthy part of life for most people and I don't have a problem with people having multiple partners throughout a lifetime. I don't think it will damage teenagers emotionally to experiment, and I don't think it makes them impure. I think sex is something to enjoy and not something to be afraid of.

Standing ovation :clap:

Very close to what i taught my DD. She's 26 now, has healthy relationships that include sex and sometimes has extended periods of time when she only has sex with herself. We've got a very open relationship when it comes to discussing human intimacy, and unfortunately we're so closely bonded, that we often times know when either of us are doing it :o She also doesn't confuse physical desire with love. Lots of the girls she went to school with (fundy kids in a town under two thousand) were taught they had to be in love to experience physical desire. TBS of those girls in her class that took the virginity pledge, most were pregnant before graduation, many have married and divorced, with multiple kids by multiple 'men'.

Keep talking to them, it sounds like you are on the right track. Kudos.

[tehgoobster]

I find it hard to believe that any child that wasn't raised locked in a closet knows nothing about sex. Even in fundieland.

You never know, but I'd imagine that most know the basics at the very least. I wouldn't be surprised if many of them don't know much about the finer points, however. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't shock me to learn that many fundie guys don't know what a clitoris is and how to stimulate it until very close to the wedding. Even with the finer points, my guess would be that they go into marriage with rudimentary knowledge at best.

[annalena]

If I didn't have my "baggage" (read: my last relationship with a previously-best friend which was a desaster ... long story), I would by far not value my current relationship as much.

I remember when we first got together, 2.5 years ago, I would be amazed if my then-new boyfriend did the most natural, normal things, like telling me he would like to get to know my parents, relaxing with me in the park, telling me he wanted to come out with him and his friends, and so on. :)

I have re-learned that these things are normal, but I still value our relationship a lot lot lot lot because I know it can be different.

[xReems]

The only "baggage" I brought into the current relationship was my recent ex-boyfriend. He definitely knew how to control me and emotionally and mentally abuse me without me ever realizing it until we broke it off. I had trust issues and low self-esteem and confidence but if anything, my boyfriend helped me overcome that in a couple months and we're perfectly okay. Whatever "baggage" i brought in did not come between us but he managed to make me the person I am today.

When JB talked about Michelle's baggage, he made it sound like as if it caused soooo many problems and issues.

Like I said, I have no problems with courtship but it gets under my skin when some fundies throw out the whole "we're better than you" attitude as if their way is the only way to have a successful marriage since they remain pure until marriage. Oh please, my boyfriend and I have gone through all the bases and hit home run in the 3.5 years we've been together and our relationship is just as strong as the next person's. Am I our way is the right way? Nope, but we're still together, and neither of us went the "courtship" route.

[bananacat]

Imagine hearing about sex for the first time a month before your wedding? Yikes! Also, it's one thing to know the basics of what goes where, but it's quite another to be able to do it well. I hope someone gives fundie newlyweds a sex manual or something, but even then, can you imagine how awkward it would be to get The Joy of Sex or the Kama Sutra from your parents or your in-laws? :lol:

The best way to have good sex is to practice solo. You can't tell your partner what you like until you know what you like. It really is a shame that masturbation is so forbidden among fundies.