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We killed Jesus


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According to the pastor at the church I attended this morning, we killed Jesus. We killed him, but God forgives us.

I have heard this thought before, but where does it come from? Why is it that those of us who didn't even exist then are the ones who stuck a spear in his side and crucified him?

This pastor also said in his prayer "With my hands raised in surrender" but his hands were only half raised and his arms were held firmly to his side. I guess he might not be able to raise his hands really high, but the way his arms were held so tight to his side, if wasn't really a surrender kind of pose... If that makes sense.

Anyway, w

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According to the pastor at the church I attended this morning, we killed Jesus. We killed him, but God forgives us.

I have heard this thought before, but where does it come from? Why is it that those of us who didn't even exist then are the ones who stuck a spear in his side and crucified him?

This pastor also said in his prayer "With my hands raised in surrender" but his hands were only half raised and his arms were held firmly to his side. I guess he might not be able to raise his hands really high, but the way his arms were held so tight to his side, if wasn't really a surrender kind of pose... If that makes sense.

Anyway, w

I don't know what your pastor meant by it, but from what I've heard others say in similar sermons, our sin -- the collective sins of humanity -- is what nailed Christ to the cross.

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It was during worship... I dont remember the name of the song, it goes "Here I am worshipping you bowing down in spirit and truth with lifted hands worshipping you

He was talking about communion. The bread of life. The Holy Spirit moved him to move communion early. So he was talking about the last supper and how Jesus said he was the bread of life but we killed him! We killed Jesus!

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I don't know what your pastor meant by it, but from what I've heard others say in similar sermons, our sin -- the collective sins of humanity -- is what nailed Christ to the cross.

This seems more in line with everything I've heard. Could the pastor have been trying to sensationalize/emotionalize it?

Also, what kind of church was this?

Right about now, I'm thanking The Lord Baby Jesus that I'm an Episcopalian :P

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A key concept of Christianity is that Jesus Died for our Sins.

Some people interpret that as us killing Jesus because we are innately evil and we all needed salvation, which came about by God sacrificing his only son.

What confuses me, though is that if God is in charge, and He/She created us, then why were created with the flaw of Sin? That kind of seems to be his problem, as our 'creator', it seems like He/She should be the one responsible to fix that mistake.

If I were creating a world, and populating it with my 'children', I wouldn't create children who were full of sin.

This part of Christianity has always had me confused. Why is it we must be beaten down with the idea that we are evil, sinful, unworthy people. If I accept God as "The Father", then as a parent myself, I can't imagine wanting my children to be constantly told they are little sinners undeserving of my love and protection. Instead I would want them to know they were good, and loved, even if maybe they aren't good 100% of the time. Teaching a child they are worthy and good, is more likely to give you positive results than teaching a child they are worthless.

My own relationship with Faith is complicated. Sometimes I feel deeply faithful and other times I think it is piffle. But, the truth is, I do prefer a world where something unseen and unproven can be believed in. (Sorry for the grammar on that sentence!). Love is unseen and untouchable, yet I believe in it, I feel it and I have it. So in my weird way of having Faith, I see God as Love. And, if God is love, then I am puzzled by the Jesus part. Why, could God not be forgiving without the Jesus Part of the Story. If we are to believe God is all powerful, would not that Power include the power to forgive and provide everlasting life in heaven? I just don't think a loving God would first tell us we are sinful, unworthy souls, And then saddle us with continual guilt for causing the death of Christ.

So when People ask me if I am a Christian, I am always unsure what to say. I do believe in God, and I think there was probably a very wise man who challenged the religious and political extremism of his time to preach that God is Love and we are to Love our enemies, our neighbors, each other and our selves as we would love God. Which basically is what I try to do. So I guess I am believer of God, who follows principles taught by Jesus. But whether I think Jesus was the Son of God and sacrificed for our Sins, I am not so sure.

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According to the pastor at the church I attended this morning, we killed Jesus. We killed him, but God forgives us.

I have heard this thought before, but where does it come from? Why is it that those of us who didn't even exist then are the ones who stuck a spear in his side and crucified him?

This pastor also said in his prayer "With my hands raised in surrender" but his hands were only half raised and his arms were held firmly to his side. I guess he might not be able to raise his hands really high, but the way his arms were held so tight to his side, if wasn't really a surrender kind of pose... If that makes sense.

Anyway, w

Why didn't you ask your pastor? You were right there. Can you ask him next week or maybe call or email him?

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I know this hymn is in the Episcopal hymnal, and is often sung on Good Friday:

http://www.hymnary.org/text/ah_holy_jes ... u_offended

[bBvideo 560,340:15rqxi4i]

[/bBvideo]

The second verse:

Who was the guilty? Who brought this upon thee?

Alas, my treason, Jesus, hath undone thee!

'Twas I, Lord Jesus, I it was denied thee;

I crucified thee.

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What confuses me, though is that if God is in charge, and He/She created us, then why were created with the flaw of Sin? That kind of seems to be his problem, as our 'creator', it seems like He/She should be the one responsible to fix that mistake.

If I were creating a world, and populating it with my 'children', I wouldn't create children who were full of sin.

Because god did not read humans for dummies book first. people were stuck with humans and human history so the bible could not deny it. silly god should have read the book before making humans.

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I certainly did not kill Jesus and anyone who tries to convince me I did is messed up in the head. I did not decide to create flawed human beings. I did not decide to have a son for the sole purpose of sacrificing him for the betterment of the human race. I did not ask for anyone to do that for me. So, how am I responsible?

Sounds like this idiot preacher was trying guilt trip his congregation. For what purpose, I have no idea. Maybe to get them to come to church and to get them to recruit others to come to his church in order to fatten the coffers? Maybe he really believes this nonsense? Who knows. As far as I'm concerned however, I refuse to be guilt tripped by anyone (FYI: this is also why I refuse to repost the guilt trippy nonsense you see on Facebook).

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I don't know, I think you could look at it in a broader context. Not that you, individually, killed this one person, Jesus. Along with a collection of everybody who had ever been born and ever will be born.

I think you can look at Jesus as being a representation of everything good ( love, kindness, peace, etc) and that it is the everyday sins/ mistakes/selfishness that people commit that destroy the potential for good. So by acting in a spiteful/violent/greedy way people are destroying their own chances to have good for themselves and for others.

So Jesus dying for our sins is a reminder to put good before evil so that we are not destroyed, or destroy others.

And the part about our being forgiven our sins because he died for them tells us that we always have time to stop sinning and start living in a kind and loving way. And that, being human, of course we won't be perfect in that, but that Good can always overcome Bad. Because Good ( God/Jesus/Love) is more powerful than Bad ( Satan/Evil/Hate).

The story of the crucification and rising from the dead seems to say all that. You have perfect good, Jesus, the son of God. He must sacrifice because Good is not always easy or pretty or what people want to do. Bad ( sin) is often easier and may have the immediate benefit for each individual. It appears that Bad and Evil have won when he is killed for sticking to his belief in Good. But - the important part - Good has ultimately won, and Sin defeated - as he rises from the dead and goes to be with his Father ( good, God) in Heaven - a place without sin/evil.

I don't know that's just my pre-coffee take on it :D

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I usually identify with Episcopalian too... I went with a friend this time, she asked me to go with her. I said "Why not?" I think its an Assembly of God church, but I'm not positive either. Its definitely a prosperity church.

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snip...What confuses me, though is that if God is in charge, and He/She created us, then why were created with the flaw of Sin? That kind of seems to be his problem, as our 'creator', it seems like He/She should be the one responsible to fix that mistake....snip

I was always taught that because God gave us free will he had to allow sin in the world/Garden of Eden so that we had the choice to turn away from sin, otherwise we'd be mindless robots following God's commands instead of choosing to follow him. But at our inherent core we were created in His image, and therefore we were created as good beings. Sin is something that we do, not something that we are.

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I was always taught that because God gave us free will he had to allow sin in the world/Garden of Eden so that we had the choice to turn away from sin, otherwise we'd be mindless robots following God's commands instead of choosing to follow him. But at our inherent core we were created in His image, and therefore we were created as good beings. Sin is something that we do, not something that we are.

that's what i was taught, too, but it still never made sense to me, because if god is all-knowing, wouldn't he know the outcome? the suffering? the hardship? why then did he still create us? i mean, i'm sure no one was forcing him to create us. unless he's just a sadist who enjoys it. *shrug*

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I was always taught that because God gave us free will he had to allow sin in the world/Garden of Eden so that we had the choice to turn away from sin, otherwise we'd be mindless robots following God's commands instead of choosing to follow him. But at our inherent core we were created in His image, and therefore we were created as good beings. Sin is something that we do, not something that we are.

that's what i was taught, too, but it still never made sense to me, because if god is all-knowing, wouldn't he know the outcome? the suffering? the hardship? why then did he still create us? i mean, i'm sure no one was forcing him to create us. unless he's just a sadist who enjoys it. *shrug*

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I did not decide to have a son for the sole purpose of sacrificing him for the betterment of the human race.

This is a little random, but after consideration, I don't really like/agree with the fact that Jesus dying for our sins makes God an abusive Father. The orthodox (small "o"!) view of the Trinity is that Jesus IS God and not a separate entity. The way I've always understood Jesus' death and crucifixion is not that God SENT Jesus to die for us (though we often say that) but rather that God came down to earth as Jesus to die for us ("The Word became flesh and dwelt among us").

Now, getting into what is technically the orthodox view of Christianity is complicated because the whole thing actually doesn't make logical sense. But yeah, I don't think it reflects standard historic or current Christian beliefs when God gets accused of sending in someone else to do the dirty work. God did the dirty work because Jesus was God (in standard Christian belief, of course).

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Ok, another explanation or interpretation or whatever please.

Non-denominational Christian church. Christian rock band is playing softly during the offering and the pastors wife is barefoot in her jeans, sitting on the floor of the stage, praying, "Break my heart, Lord. Give me a heartache only you can cure. Break my heart, Lord" while she's crying.

If she did get her heart broken over, say, her husband having an affair or they went broke, would she then be able to blame Jesus when he was only answering her prayers? Would it do any good to pray that Jesus undo her heartache?

Anybody have any idea what in the heck she meant by "Break my heart"?

I stopped going to this church a few months ago when the pastor threw in his own twist to a Bible passage on tithing. After that, I guess I nitpicked because I saw a lot wrong and a lot of contradictions.

But this has me stymied.

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This is a little random, but after consideration, I don't really like/agree with the fact that Jesus dying for our sins makes God an abusive Father. The orthodox (small "o"!) view of the Trinity is that Jesus IS God and not a separate entity. The way I've always understood Jesus' death and crucifixion is not that God SENT Jesus to die for us (though we often say that) but rather that God came down to earth as Jesus to die for us ("The Word became flesh and dwelt among us").

Now, getting into what is technically the orthodox view of Christianity is complicated because the whole thing actually doesn't make logical sense. But yeah, I don't think it reflects standard historic or current Christian beliefs when God gets accused of sending in someone else to do the dirty work. God did the dirty work because Jesus was God (in standard Christian belief, of course).

the trinity was always a weird concept to explain around, at least in my neck of the woods in christianity. the father/son/holy spirit was usually presented as three separate entities, but still one entity...i guess kind of like if god had multiple personalities. if anything couldn't be adequately explained, it was chalked up to, "as humans, our knowledge is limited, so when we die and become divine, like god, then we will understand!" which, i kind of thought was a cop out. i'd rather believe in something i can understand and explain now, thank you very much.

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A key concept of Christianity is that Jesus Died for our Sins.

Some people interpret that as us killing Jesus because we are innately evil and we all needed salvation, which came about by God sacrificing his only son.

What confuses me, though is that if God is in charge, and He/She created us, then why were created with the flaw of Sin? That kind of seems to be his problem, as our 'creator', it seems like He/She should be the one responsible to fix that mistake.

If I were creating a world, and populating it with my 'children', I wouldn't create children who were full of sin.

This part of Christianity has always had me confused. Why is it we must be beaten down with the idea that we are evil, sinful, unworthy people. If I accept God as "The Father", then as a parent myself, I can't imagine wanting my children to be constantly told they are little sinners undeserving of my love and protection. Instead I would want them to know they were good, and loved, even if maybe they aren't good 100% of the time. Teaching a child they are worthy and good, is more likely to give you positive results than teaching a child they are worthless.

My own relationship with Faith is complicated. Sometimes I feel deeply faithful and other times I think it is piffle. But, the truth is, I do prefer a world where something unseen and unproven can be believed in. (Sorry for the grammar on that sentence!). Love is unseen and untouchable, yet I believe in it, I feel it and I have it. So in my weird way of having Faith, I see God as Love. And, if God is love, then I am puzzled by the Jesus part. Why, could God not be forgiving without the Jesus Part of the Story. If we are to believe God is all powerful, would not that Power include the power to forgive and provide everlasting life in heaven? I just don't think a loving God would first tell us we are sinful, unworthy souls, And then saddle us with continual guilt for causing the death of Christ.

So when People ask me if I am a Christian, I am always unsure what to say. I do believe in God, and I think there was probably a very wise man who challenged the religious and political extremism of his time to preach that God is Love and we are to Love our enemies, our neighbors, each other and our selves as we would love God. Which basically is what I try to do. So I guess I am believer of God, who follows principles taught by Jesus. But whether I think Jesus was the Son of God and sacrificed for our Sins, I am not so sure.

Obviously, you haven't steeped yourself in Pearl's To Train up a Child. :sigh2:

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Ok, another explanation or interpretation or whatever please.

Non-denominational Christian church. Christian rock band is playing softly during the offering and the pastors wife is barefoot in her jeans, sitting on the floor of the stage, praying, "Break my heart, Lord. Give me a heartache only you can cure. Break my heart, Lord" while she's crying.

If she did get her heart broken over, say, her husband having an affair or they went broke, would she then be able to blame Jesus when he was only answering her prayers? Would it do any good to pray that Jesus undo her heartache?

Anybody have any idea what in the heck she meant by "Break my heart"?

I stopped going to this church a few months ago when the pastor threw in his own twist to a Bible passage on tithing. After that, I guess I nitpicked because I saw a lot wrong and a lot of contradictions.

But this has me stymied.

Oh! I know! Pick me!

Basically, she is saying she wants God to point out to her all of the wrong that she did that hurt Him. That time when she told her friend she was sick because she didnt want to go to lunch? That time when she didn't stop to pray over a homeless person? That time when she forgot to read her Bible? And don't forget that one Sunday where she had the flu and took off from going to church because she didn't want to contaminate other people. Basically, she wants God to beat her over the head with all of the bad and sinful things she has done until it breaks her heart, because why would she do that to such a loving God? I mean, she totally SHOULD have gone to church to worship her Lord, even if it made someone else sick.

So yeah. Thats why she wants God to break her heart. Theres this thing where if you are broken, you are more likely to seek God, which is contradictory to what is normally said... how when times are good you are with God, but the minute times get bad, you turn away from Him... so which is it? Break me so I seek you? Or If I break, I will turn from you?

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Oh! I know! Pick me!

Basically, she is saying she wants God to point out to her all of the wrong that she did that hurt Him. That time when she told her friend she was sick because she didnt want to go to lunch? That time when she didn't stop to pray over a homeless person? That time when she forgot to read her Bible? And don't forget that one Sunday where she had the flu and took off from going to church because she didn't want to contaminate other people. Basically, she wants God to beat her over the head with all of the bad and sinful things she has done until it breaks her heart, because why would she do that to such a loving God? I mean, she totally SHOULD have gone to church to worship her Lord, even if it made someone else sick.

So yeah. Thats why she wants God to break her heart. Theres this thing where if you are broken, you are more likely to seek God, which is contradictory to what is normally said... how when times are good you are with God, but the minute times get bad, you turn away from Him... so which is it? Break me so I seek you? Or If I break, I will turn from you?

I had a just slightly different take on it. I kind of pictured all the big and little rotten actions and thoughts that you might do filling up and filling up until they take over your heart -- so you are just filled with rage or selfishness or jealousy or impatience or grief or whatever. You become overwhelmed with all of this stuff and want to be rid of it, so you break down by letting go of all of it and getting those nasty feelings out - kind of " letting Go and letting God". Because you can't have room to be acting mean/evil/ greedy / miserable etc when your heart is full of Good and love (God) . So kind of what you're saying but I didn't think of it as God or Jesus beating you over the head with your sins and sadness but more you are asking God to take all of that from you so you can start over and try to do better.

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