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Secondary infertility is a medical problem not God's will


SunnyAndrsn

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Mrs. Anna T recently posted an essay by someone talking about secondary infertility. This person was talking about the challenges of living in a culture of large families, while having a small family while yearning for more children. Mrs. Anna T, in the comments, clarified that she is dealing with the same problem, but was not the original writer of the essay.

Apparently, if you receive as many blessings as possible in as short of time as possible, then you're living God's will. If, however, you only have two children in six years, you clearly have a medical problem. What happened to God opening and closing the womb?

ccostello.blogspot.com

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Fundie Dictionary:

"Medical Problem"--something physical that is preventing you from having everything you want OR something physical that is endangering your health.

"God's Will"--something physical that is protecting you from something you want to avoid OR something physical that is preventing someone else from having what they want/endangering someone else's health.

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That's not what I got from the article and the post AT ALL.

The whole thing was about how emotionally difficult it is to be the mom of a small family when everyone around you seems to have a large family, and people make tons of thoughtless, insensitive comments.

The plain English translation is this: "You have no idea why someone may have no kids or a smaller-than-average family, so just STFU. Before you make a comment, try to remember that having a smaller family may not be something we chose. If you have a problem with it, discuss it with God, because we've done our part. Don't assume that IVF is some magic solution that made infertility a thing of the past - yes, it's an option for some people, but it doesn't work for everyone, it takes a huge toll on moms and the rest of the family, and each family needs to think carefully about whether it is the right option for them."

Orthodox Judaism is not the same as QF. Both favor large families, but Orthodox Judaism allows both birth control and assisted reproduction in certain circumstances.

ETA: I just noticed in the link that the author Tzipporah Price is a therapist in a community where an online friend of mine lived. I can't help wondering if she knew my friend, who died over a year ago and who struggled with severe depression after dealing with secondary infertility and the stillbirth of her second daughter. Her blog made it clear that insensitive comments made her depression worse.

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Great post, 2xx1xy1JD.

I'd also add that viewing something as God's will doesn't mean one can't also view it as a medical condition. It also doesn't mean that it's pleasant or easy to deal with.

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Ok, I think I see where the misunderstanding is.

These are Orthodox Jews, not Christian fundies. In their theology, there isn't an artificial distinction between "medical problem" and "God's will".

Instead, it is assumed that people will naturally want certain things that are seen as good (eg. life, health, a suitable spouse, children, income, etc.), and will both pray for these things and make practical efforts to get them. Jewish theology doesn't encourage passive acceptance of problems, but encourages people to actively pray and work toward good outcomes. For example, getting proper medical care is a religious requirement. That said, sometimes despite everyone's best efforts, shit happens. At that point, it's past the point of being in someone's control and the situation, which may be extremely difficult, tragic and beyond comprehension, is seen as God's will.

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Having dealt with secondary infertility, I know how awful it is to see ANYONE else pregnant (and I only wanted kid #2 and then to be done!). I can't imagine being in one of these type of religious groups where having huge families are prominent and expected. It would probably be THAT much worse, it's definitely not fun in the first place.

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Ok, I think I see where the misunderstanding is.

These are Orthodox Jews, not Christian fundies. In their theology, there isn't an artificial distinction between "medical problem" and "God's will".

Instead, it is assumed that people will naturally want certain things that are seen as good (eg. life, health, a suitable spouse, children, income, etc.), and will both pray for these things and make practical efforts to get them. Jewish theology doesn't encourage passive acceptance of problems, but encourages people to actively pray and work toward good outcomes. For example, getting proper medical care is a religious requirement. That said, sometimes despite everyone's best efforts, shit happens. At that point, it's past the point of being in someone's control and the situation, which may be extremely difficult, tragic and beyond comprehension, is seen as God's will.

Catholic theology is similar in this, which is why I posted as I did. I don't quite have my head wrapped around how Protestants view God's will.

For us, it is as you said, but also with the understanding that the struggle/suffering you go through can also be God's will due to the growth and sanctification you undergo.

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This double standard in Quiverfull community bugs me. Some fundies try to explain it away by saying about how fertility treatments 'bring your body back to the way God intended'. Or something. It's still bullshit.

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Speaking only for my CofE church, my Vicar would tell any member of her congregation who told her they were praying for God's healing or being obedient to God's will by doing nothing when they had a medical problem that they were nuts (in the kindest way) and probably give them to the GP or hospital herself if that was what it took. She's very much of the mindset of being proactive about something if you possibly can, and being proactive about helping those who can't. I've never talked to her about infertility but I assume she would view fertility treatments as personal between the couple and their doctors and the couple and God to decide what is best for them. We are basically Anglo-Catholic though and very, very far from fundie Protestantism.

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Speaking only for my CofE church, my Vicar would tell any member of her congregation who told her they were praying for God's healing or being obedient to God's will by doing nothing when they had a medical problem that they were nuts (in the kindest way) and probably give them to the GP or hospital herself if that was what it took. She's very much of the mindset of being proactive about something if you possibly can, and being proactive about helping those who can't. I've never talked to her about infertility but I assume she would view fertility treatments as personal between the couple and their doctors and the couple and God to decide what is best for them. We are basically Anglo-Catholic though and very, very far from fundie Protestantism.

Sorry for any confusion, but I meant that our beliefs are similar to the Jewish beliefs that 2xx describes.

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That's not what I got from the article and the post AT ALL.

The whole thing was about how emotionally difficult it is to be the mom of a small family when everyone around you seems to have a large family, and people make tons of thoughtless, insensitive comments.

The plain English translation is this: "You have no idea why someone may have no kids or a smaller-than-average family, so just STFU. Before you make a comment, try to remember that having a smaller family may not be something we chose. If you have a problem with it, discuss it with God, because we've done our part. Don't assume that IVF is some magic solution that made infertility a thing of the past - yes, it's an option for some people, but it doesn't work for everyone, it takes a huge toll on moms and the rest of the family, and each family needs to think carefully about whether it is the right option for them."

Orthodox Judaism is not the same as QF. Both favor large families, but Orthodox Judaism allows both birth control and assisted reproduction in certain circumstances.

ETA: I just noticed in the link that the author Tzipporah Price is a therapist in a community where an online friend of mine lived. I can't help wondering if she knew my friend, who died over a year ago and who struggled with severe depression after dealing with secondary infertility and the stillbirth of her second daughter. Her blog made it clear that insensitive comments made her depression worse.

I agree, however Anna's comments are what got my undies in a bunch:

Anon, my children are 5 and 3.5 years old. Yes, when I found out I'm pregnant for the second time I experienced a surge of panic because I presumed this was how it was going to be - a baby every 18-20 months or so. I was a real idiot for taking my fertility for granted and worrying and fretting about the mighty Future instead of just enjoying my babies.

Of course it is all up to G-d. But if a young woman stops having children for no apparent reason, there might be/usually is an underlying problem. How far the couple is supposed to go to fix it is entirely up to them. I personally wouldn't do IVF, but some do, and it's not for me to judge them.

and in another comment:

The question is one of faith. When I got pregnant with Tehilla, I thought, "how am I going to handle a large family of babies so closely spaced?" - well, fertility is not to be taken for granted, which I learned the hard way.

FWIW, I'm an infertile woman who has gone through IVF and I know very well that fertility treatments are not magic.

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Ok, I think I see where the misunderstanding is.

These are Orthodox Jews, not Christian fundies. In their theology, there isn't an artificial distinction between "medical problem" and "God's will".

Instead, it is assumed that people will naturally want certain things that are seen as good (eg. life, health, a suitable spouse, children, income, etc.), and will both pray for these things and make practical efforts to get them. Jewish theology doesn't encourage passive acceptance of problems, but encourages people to actively pray and work toward good outcomes. For example, getting proper medical care is a religious requirement. That said, sometimes despite everyone's best efforts, shit happens. At that point, it's past the point of being in someone's control and the situation, which may be extremely difficult, tragic and beyond comprehension, is seen as God's will.

Interesting, thanks for the explanation.

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I agree, however Anna's comments are what got my undies in a bunch:

and in another comment:

FWIW, I'm an infertile woman who has gone through IVF and I know very well that fertility treatments are not magic.

She sounds to me like someone with regrets, obviously.

I don't think anyone suggests that it's bad to seek out treatment for a medical issue -- and some medical issues (PCOS, Endometriosis, etc) due cause infertility. Treating the illness can sometimes restore fertility. Perhaps she means that she should have realized that her declined fertility might have been a sign of something wrong with her health -- it's hard to tell, because she's pretty emotional about it all and isn't explaining herself all that well.

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Sorry for any confusion, but I meant that our beliefs are similar to the Jewish beliefs that 2xx describes.

Don't worry I completely understand and agree with a lot of things you were both saying. I was just expressing that "Protestantism" in my personal experience is not necessarily evangelical or dissimilar to Catholic traditions.

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Don't worry I completely understand and agree with a lot of things you were both saying. I was just expressing that "Protestantism" in my personal experience is not necessarily evangelical or dissimilar to Catholic traditions.

Ahh, okay, gottcha! :)

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I haven't read all her posts but some earlier ones suggested that she might stop after 2 kids. Perhaps she used birth control and then found that she had trouble getting pregnant again when she wanted to? She never really went into details. I also suspect that there may be some underlying medical reason for her lack of energy.

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That's not what I got from the article and the post AT ALL.

The whole thing was about how emotionally difficult it is to be the mom of a small family when everyone around you seems to have a large family, and people make tons of thoughtless, insensitive comments.

The plain English translation is this: "You have no idea why someone may have no kids or a smaller-than-average family, so just STFU. Before you make a comment, try to remember that having a smaller family may not be something we chose. If you have a problem with it, discuss it with God, because we've done our part. Don't assume that IVF is some magic solution that made infertility a thing of the past - yes, it's an option for some people, but it doesn't work for everyone, it takes a huge toll on moms and the rest of the family, and each family needs to think carefully about whether it is the right option for them."

Orthodox Judaism is not the same as QF. Both favor large families, but Orthodox Judaism allows both birth control and assisted reproduction in certain circumstances.

ETA: I just noticed in the link that the author Tzipporah Price is a therapist in a community where an online friend of mine lived. I can't help wondering if she knew my friend, who died over a year ago and who struggled with severe depression after dealing with secondary infertility and the stillbirth of her second daughter. Her blog made it clear that insensitive comments made her depression worse.

Great explanation of the differences!

The church I attended wasn't quiverfull and allowed certain types of birth control, but ivf was absolutely off-limits because of the extra embryos that were often created. But when a woman's "womb was closed" against her will, it was usually considered a sign that she had "unacknowledged sin" in her life. The subsequent shunning could make an already-difficult situation absolutely unbearable.

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