Sex scandals and their sources

[AnnieC 305]

Now I honestly haven't been closely following the downfall of Doug Phillips since the beginning of the year. Not enough delectable morsels for my taste. But I do seem to recall that some have suggested that some of the sources were less than reliable, especially at the beginning. And I seem to recall some said the same about the Bill Gothard scandal. And now word has gotten around about Mark Driscoll having issues but I'm not certain any of them were directly sexual, and now there's this fellow Bob Coy down in Florida.

http://www.religionnews.com/2014/04/06/ ... l-failure/

And then this came out

http://rt.com/news/snowden-pace-whistleblower-nsa-157/

“I would like to clarify that I have no intention of harming the US government or straining bilateral ties between any nations. My motivation is to improve the government, not to bring it down,†Snowden said.

The NSA gathered “explicit sexual material regarding religious conservatives whose political views it disfavored and considered radical for the purpose of exposing it to damage their reputations and discredit them within their communities,†Snowden told PACE. (the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe)

“This is an unprecedented form of political interference that I don’t believe can be seen elsewhere in western governments,†he went on. “But no legal means currently exist to challenge such activities or to see penalties for such abuses,†he said.

:popcorn2:

All I'm saying

[Tdoc72]

I don't know if that's true about the NSA, but IMO, no one made Doug be a tool, hurting his family & messing w/Hero. No one made Gothard mess w/dozens of girls in his organization. And whatever the other 2 did. They had free will. Same w/that Louisiana politician. I don't think they should blame their downfalls on anyone other than themselves.

[AnnieC 305]

No, I'm not questioning that they did it. They did it of their own free will.

I'm wondering who actually leaked word of it out to the internet. Who told the people at the blogs we've been following.

[Evil Feminist]

No, I'm not questioning that they did it. They did it of their own free will.

No, I think they were 'predestined' to do what they did. Aren't they mostly Calvinist? (except Gothard) :stir-pot:

[uber frau]

In Calvinist theology, they're not bearing fruits of thankfulness. Some of the bigger arseholes in Calvinism might even think it's okay to question their salvation and presume they're predestined to damnation. (How does that feel DPIAT and Mark Driscoll? Shoe's on the other foot this time).

[Arete]

Doug, Gothard, and Coy are just not important or influential enough for the government to take time out of its regularly scheduled fuckwittery to bring them down. I suppose an argument could be made that Driscoll's reach is more extensive and important. Still, it is not like Franklin Graham or Pat Robertson was brought down. Those two have far reaching influence.

The others were brought down because it is impossible to contain scandals to the local level with the Internet. An individual story may not be acted on immediately, but it can't be buried and eventually it will join the stories of other abuses. The ability of their victims to force accountability is unprecedented in the history of ecclesiastical scandals. No NSA required.

[RosyDaisy]

I'm pretty sure there's a lot more to Doug Phillips and Bll Gothard's scandals than what's being reported. Other fundie leaders need to watch their back. I sense that we are experiencing a witch hunt (deservedly so) against them. And it' about damn time.

[salex]

If the government has a special file for "Fundie fun sex" it is not Unprecedented, IF the old stories about why J Edgar Hoover was in place so long are to be believed, he kept his job by having a file of politician fun sex.

To me, Doug Phillips is a small demographic Phenomenon. I've been working and playing in San Antonio quite a bit the last 7 years--and can tell you the joys of Boerne, TX, where I've also worked and stayed (I highly recommend the patio at the Boerne Wine Company)

I never heard of Vision Forum while I was there. His influence in either city was minimal, from what I can tell and by the absence of any real news about his fall I believe it is not because he was so powerful that he covered it up as much as it was so inconsiqential to his area as to not be newsworthy. Yes the homeschooler world and the VF fans all felt it, but San Antonio and Tx didn't really notice, from what I can tell. People who live there full time can fill us in if I missed it.

[salex]

I'm pretty sure there's a lot more to Doug Phillips and Bll Gothard's scandals than what's being reported. Other fundie leaders need to watch their back. I sense that we are experiencing a witch hunt (deservedly so) against them. And it' about damn time.

I think that for many of them, "pride goeth before a fall" and they get so convinced of their powerful place in their group that they begin to believe their own PR-- and think they can do no wrong. And, they get too comfortable in their sin, and eventually people notice. And the wrong person noticing (either a truly moral person who believed the purity hype or a person who would like to be king but can't until the old king is gone) and suddenly it all hits the fan....

THere have been a rash among the people we follow here, but, if you go back sex has killed many ministries--- Oral Roberts University is not run by any Roberts any longer, Jimmy Swaggard, Jim Bakker-- and then there are the countless others I don't know OR who had a god ordained divorce that (Richard Roberts comes to mind on that as well)

Bill Gothard's penchant was apparently well known, but it was only when he got old enough his power was diminished that it made a difference, or someone could get together enough others to support them.

[RosyDaisy]

This only my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. I think some very influential people brought down Doug Phillips is a tool (along with VFM and VFI) and Bill Gothard. And now with the above reports, it sounds like there's a witch hunt underway and deservedly so.

Now I can't get Queen's "Another One Bites the Dust" out of my head....LOL

[Cleopatra7]

I don't think Snowden is referring to Bill Gothard or Doug Phillips is a tool as figures who were brought down by the NSA. Both are big fish in small ponds, and nobody outside of homeschool/patriarchy circles and us really cares about them. I think that the report may be referring to radical Islamic clerics who could pose a security risk.

[Megan]

I agree with Cleopatra7 that it likely refers to foreign conservatives. The sentence before the bolded bit mentions "ties between any nations". Sounds like the material was collected for the purposes of discrediting politicians in foreign countries who, if elected, would distance their countries from policies favored by the US. Given the increasing popularity of anti-American and anti-Western conservative govts in some parts of the world, it seems possible.

[RosyDaisy]

Oops, sorry. Anyway....here's an idea, why don't Americans just butt out of the middle east

[16strong]

If the government has a special file for "Fundie fun sex" it is not Unprecedented, IF the old stories about why J Edgar Hoover was in place so long are to be believed, he kept his job by having a file of politician fun sex.

To me, Doug Phillips is a small demographic Phenomenon. I've been working and playing in San Antonio quite a bit the last 7 years--and can tell you the joys of Boerne, TX, where I've also worked and stayed (I highly recommend the patio at the Boerne Wine Company)

I never heard of Vision Forum while I was there. His influence in either city was minimal, from what I can tell and by the absence of any real news about his fall I believe it is not because he was so powerful that he covered it up as much as it was so inconsiqential to his area as to not be newsworthy. Yes the homeschooler world and the VF fans all felt it, but San Antonio and Tx didn't really notice, from what I can tell. People who live there full time can fill us in if I missed it.

'Fundie Fun Sex'? Are you serious? :o :lol:

[bumblebee]

Yeah I think it's likely that report is referring to bigger fish than Gothard or Phillips. After all the security related revelations it wouldn't exactly surprise me but I tend to think Gothard and Phillips were hoisted by their own petards.

It's been Gothard's MO for a very long time if even a fraction of those stories on RG are true (and I think they are) it was well known within HQ circles so much so that he's been officially and unofficially asked to stop for many years. The same with Douggie. In past decades they would have been only local scandals. What's changed is all it takes is a couple of people to blog about their experiences and others come forward and corroborate and discuss or all disgusted lieutenants have to do is leak it to the right person and viola. Even with the internet and the Duggar's connection to Gothard there hasn't exactly been a huge public fuss over Gothard, its just the definition of how far a subculture scandal reaches has changed.

[tropaka]

The US government's been keeping tabs on religious figures/activists a long time (MLK's dalliances were known, IIRC), wouldn't be surprised if they had some dirt on more influential religious figures, both Christian and Islamic. Do highly doubt the NSA cared much about Gothard or the Tool - big fish in small ponds, rightly outed by members of their own groups (although I'm sure there're lots of financial shenanigans going on as well).

[salex]

'Fundie Fun Sex'? Are you serious? :o :lol:

Yes, that would be the sex on the side that is not designed to get people knocked up to fill the quiver. It would be the sex with the woman who believes the old line "My wife doesn't understand me" and "In god's eyes what we are doing is OK>"