Courtship Rules

[xReems]

So, this whole courtship vs. dating thing among fundies as always fascinated me since I heard about when Smuggar and Anna courted. Every fundie families have their own standards on what a courtship is, obviously from the Bates who allow touching and wooing during courtship to the MaxHells who avoid touching at all costs to the Kellers who allow hand holding after engagement. Pecan Thief proposed to Priscilla around the same time his older brother, Adam, proposed to Valerie (Mueller) and I noticed a huge difference between the two couples in courtship and engagement. Compared to Pecan and Adam, Adam and Valerie avoided touching until wedding day whereas David and Priscilla held hands during engagement. It seems that the Waller brothers' sister held hands to her now husband during engagement too which made me wonder why Adam and Valerie chose a stricter path. After looking at the Mueller's family website (muellermice.blogspot.com), I saw that her other siblings had a "no touch" courtship and engagement. Being curious, I shot an email to Valerie and just asked her questions about her viewpoint of courtship. First off, she's super friendly and sent a pretty length email to explain everything but her responses were just so bizarre of what a typical fundie would say. Because it's a private email, I'll just summarize what she said in the email:

Courtship vs Dating

Dating is short time, not parent centered, may or may not lead to marriage and is usually just fun activities with no commitment. Courtship is long-term, Christ-centered, heavily parental involvement, marriage minded, fun activities with accountability. From a girl's perspective, a courtship takes off a lot of pressure since it puts her father in between her and the potential suitor as an extra layer of protection. She claims that there is still some pressure but because her father is along with her, it's not as stressful since he's able to shield her from unwanted suitors.

Why the no-touch courtship and engagement between her and Adam

Because touch is very stimulating for both men and women, she and Adam chose to not touch until their wedding day when her dad placed her hand into Adam's. All of her married siblings chose this path to remain fully pure until the day of the wedding. One of her sister's questioned if avoiding touch is necessary and whether hand holding is okay during engagement so she asked her Godly friends who touched before marriage. Much to her surprise, ALL of them ended up kissing before their wedding day. Her sister realized the importance of not touching until wedding day so her family has stuck by that guidance since. Yes folks, hand holding can lead to kissing, so be afraid. :roll: . However, that does not mean each couple have their own viewpoints on the whole "no touch". Adam and Valerie did not touch at all until their wedding day, except while passing food and their hands would touch (however, the contact was not prolonged, not repeated and avoided as much as possible), however, her sister Julie and now husband, Brian, would playfully bump into each other's shoulders and high-five each other, which the parents were fine with. So, hand holding leads to kissing but high-fives are okay? I thought touch was stimulating Pa and Ma Mueller?! Valerie did mention that some couples can hold hands by God's grace, like Davilla, but it just means the temptation is intensified with each touch. Hmm, whatever happened with "thou shalt not judge"? Sounds very judgmental :naughty:

How he put the ring on her finger

Most proposals, the guy will place on the lady's finger, however, Valerie's proposal was different in that Adam did not place the finger on her ring but rather she did it herself. :pink-shock: . Allow me to explain behind their reasoning: at the age of 16, Valerie and her dad signed a covenant, stating that she will submit to her father until her wedding day, seek her father's counsel and guidance during the courtship process, and remain pure until the wedding day. After signing the covenant, her father gave her a purity ring to wear on her left ring finger, which she has always kept on since then. When her other sisters were in a courtship, they moved the purity to their right ring finger and removed it completely after engagement, however, Valerie did not want to do that. She said that her submission to her father did not stop after the engagement, but rather, after he gave her to Adam, therefore, she wanted to continue to wear the ring on her ring finger until the wedding day. When Adam proposed, Valerie said "yes" and then explained the importance of her purity ring, to which Adam respected, so instead of him putting the ring on her finger, she did it herself. She wore the engagement ring during engagement pictures and each time, Adam would place the ring on her finger. The only difference is that he avoided touch that was not necessary. Valerie further explained that when a guy places the ring on the lady's finger, the touch should not be prolonged. When her brother was getting ready to propose to his now wife, his now FIL said that he could place the ring on her finger but to just try not to touch her. What...the..fuck..?! It's not like she's going to party in his pants if touch occurs! These people and their fear of touching before marriage :angry-banghead:

Accountability and Chaperones

Talking on the phone and texting were not chaperoned, HOWEVER, phone calls were in an open area so people could listen in (which they did not) and parents had full access to their phones and emails. Going out was always chaperoned, of course, no surprise there. For emails, the parents were always CC'd, but you know, accountability is key because you never know when an email can go from Jesus to sex. It can happen folks! No texting, email, and phone calls were allowed during the "pre-courtship" phase and nobody was allowed to know about this phase, however, after courtship, texting/emails were encouraged, and phone calls were limited to 1 hour 2x a week, with 1 call focused on Bible talk and prayers. After engagement, phone calls were unlimited and were highly encouraged. During courtship phase, no terms of endearment were allowed (sweetie, honey, dear, love) and that flowers were okay but red roses should be given after engagement (since it signifies love). Umm, if you're mind and heart is already saying "I LOVE YOU!", how does that work?! How are flowers are okay but God forbid a red rose is given? Wouldn't bringing flowers stir up unnecessary emotions that should not occur until after engagement?! I don't understand these people and their reasoning behind no terms of endearment and red roses until after engagement. If I could not say "I love you" to my boyfriend but my mind is already saying it, doesn't it defeat the purpose of having that rule? If you tell yourself to not think in those terms, how the hell can you say "I love you" after engagement when you have avoided complete emotional attachment beforehand?! And seriously, red roses are to only be used after engagement?! The fuck?! My boyfriend has bought me so many flowers of various kinds yet each time, it's made me feel all warm and giddy whether they were roses or carnations! Red roses do not stir up emotions, Muellers, buying your lady flowers does! If you don't want any emotional attachment prior to engagement, leave out the flowers and gifts to avoid it all. :angry-banghead:

I respect their decision and all but seriously, this is taking it to the extreme and half of those rules contradict one another (then again, most fundies viewpoints make no sense to begin with). Avoiding touch altogether stirs up emotions and stimulation whether they see it or not. Anything in moderation can be done but to just avoid it all and think that everything will be okay is also wrong. At some point, parents need to let go and allow their children to make decisions on their own, without the parents guilting or scaring them into making the choices that they want. Valerie was 30 when she was courting Adam, yet, she had to have her father screen Adam and had to pray about it with his wife before bringing it up to Valerie. Even though Valerie and Adam were 30/31, respectively, they could not be left alone due to fear of giving into temptation. I understand parents have fear of their children doing things that they should not at an early age but it's the parents who should talk to them and guide them into making right choices and not just avoiding those topics until the "time is right". At the end of the day, parents need to trust that their kids will make right choices and if they don't, hope that they will learn from it and avoid repeating the bad choice.

Even though the Bates family have chaperones and all, I do give them credit for allowing their children to just enjoy the "dating" aspect of courtship and be a couple instead of avoiding any emotional attachment prior to engagement. This whole "no touch" thing still makes no sense no matter how many differing explanations I get. Anything these fundies say about the importance of not touching just seems to contradict their guidances and it makes me want to do this every time :angry-banghead:

[Bubblewand]

For people who are so proud of the character their children display, they sure don't give them any opportunity to display it. These people are so ridiculously obsessed with sex.

[16strong]

Heaven only knows what would happen if young people kissed. The world might end. Because, you know, young people can't be trusted not to have sex all over every surface in public. In front of EVERYONE. Touching is a gateway sin. :roll:

[ljohnson2006]

Courting is just a nice way of saying that Fundie parents have no trust in their kids. It's insane. When you're over 18, you should be able to be accountable for yourself without a chaperone following you around.

[xReems]

I just find it odd how when her sister asked her GODLY friends who chose to hold hands during courtship/engagement, they all ended up kissing before their wedding day. Really?! What kind of "Godly" friends were they and are you sure ALL of them ended up kissing before marriage due to the stimulation of hand holding? If that's the case, I'm pretty sure then Alyssa and John, Zach and Whit, Erin and Chad, Smugs and Anna, Pecan Thief and Pris, all ended up kissing before marriage since, you know, they all touchéd prior to marriage.

It's funny how these fundies can take something so small, such as holding hands, and turn it into a sexual thing. Hand holding leads to sex, using terms of endearment before engagement leads to emotions being stirred up and oh sex, etc.

[salex]

So, the more holy the parents the more unable their children are to live their standards....

The whole Dad owns me until he gives me to someone else--do any of these women see themselves as human?

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I saw this poll yesterday at: facebook.com/groups/2215001843/

Polling "ATI Participants and Survivors" who were taught courtship. What did they do and how did it work? Results:

Dated: still married +39

Quasi Court/Date: married +16

Still single and in thirties +14

Courted by the ATI book: still married +8

Still single and in twenties +8

Dated: now separated/divorced +6

Single and looking! ;) +5

Quasi Court/Date: now separated/divorced +4

Eloped to escape ATI and domineering parents +3

Dating... trying to figure it out +2

Still single and in their fourties +2

Courted by the ATI book: now separated/divorced +2

Dated pre ATI still married. +1

Divorced after all of Gothards principles didn't work in real marriage +1

Dating and love my Girl friend +1

[louisa05]

The whole thing is really quite contrived. They get to the wedding day and the parents and everyone is oh so proud that they are virgins that have never even kissed. Never mind that they have never been alone for even ten seconds with a non-related person of the opposite gender. Yay. Congratulations. You never did something that you were never given the opportunity to do.

You know what? I haven't eaten cake all day today. Congratulate me on my excellent will power to avoid unhealthy cake. We won't mention that I have been sitting in my cake-free house all day.

[ILoveJellybeans]

How does someone go from never having touched a member of the opposite sex who was not related to them to having sex so fast?

[Earthshine]

Wow. The Muellers make the Wallers, Kellers, and Duggars seem fast and loose. :shock: And sorry, but there is no way that Anna and Josh or David and Priscilla kissed before those awkward, face-destroying, slurp fests both couples had at the altar.

[xReems]

Just the fact that when Joe (Valerie's younger brother) asked his now wife's father for his blessings, he said he could place the ring on Mary Jane's finger but to avoid touching her. My boyfriend and I tried doing that and let me tell you, it's pretty damn difficult to do. What I don't understand is how a simple touch can lead to impure thoughts but then again, a fundie can take a small thing and turn it into a huge controversy.

They should have done what Kristina from Kristina's Keepsakes did and let their father place the ring on the finger *shivers*.

[Tangy Bee]

I can understand wanting to please God by saving your virginity for your wedding night. Just can't wrap my mind around why no kissing. There are SO many ways to kiss that are innocent. A kiss on the hand, forehead, or cheek. What's wrong with that? A quick kiss on the lips can't be too arousing! Now I'm not talking french kissing or kissing longer than a full minute! Of course we all just call it, "making out" which is too much for a young fundie to handle.

JB is not allowing Jessa and Ben to hold hands and yet they are saying, "I LOVE YOU". Well they might be holding hands by now just not on camera or in public. Can't wait to compare their hand holding to Anna & Josh.

Chad didn't hold hands or give a front hug until he put a ring on it. Alyssa was ready and willing to cuddle and hug during her courtship. Zach was TOO happy to finally touch a female and show feelings attraction. But...everyone saved that 1st kiss. What's the big deal? Wishing and hoping some of their younger siblings won't feel pressure to do the same :pull-hair:

[nana sew dear]

As someone who was molested by her father, the whole "pledging your purity to dad" crap makes my stomach churn. I wonder how many of these couples are so repressed that their sex life after marriage is an embarrassing disaster? I never see that in a poll.

[Jana814]

As someone who was molested by her father, the whole "pledging your purity to dad" crap makes my stomach churn. I wonder how many of these couples are so repressed that their sex life after marriage is an embarrassing disaster? I never see that in a poll.

So sorry that u were molested!! But I have to agree about the pledging your purity to your father.

[Tangy Bee]

So sorry that u were molested!! But I have to agree about the pledging your purity to your father.

Hi Jana. Why are you ok with pledging purity to fathers? I know this is your opinion. Just asking...

[16strong]

To me, saying "I love you" is a much bigger deal than kissing someone. And hell, wouldn't that be a profession of giving your heart away? Aren't they not allowed to do that until marriage?

[Jana814]

Hi Jana. Why are you ok with pledging purity to fathers? I know this is your opinion. Just asking...

Sooo sorry was using my phone & it must have done something. I meant to say that I'm also grossed out by the pledging purity to their fathers.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

I had never heard of the Muellers before this, but wow. Just wow. Compared to them, the Botkins' take on courtship is downright liberal.

[EmiGirl]

How does someone go from never having touched a member of the opposite sex who was not related to them to having sex so fast?

My husband and I quasi-courted. We held hands/hugged/snuggled but didn't kiss until our wedding (his preference). Most of our dates were at the mall or hanging out with family or friends from his church. And let me tell you that it was the biggest mistake I ever made in my life waiting. Everything was completely awkward and over 4 years later we'll still suffering for it. I'll spare you the details, but I think it's safe assuming in what category that I mean.

[debrand]

Courtship vs Dating

Courtship is long-term, Christ-centered, heavily parental involvement, marriage minded, fun activities with accountability.

I think that the bolded part is the main reason that these people want their children to use courtship to find a spouse. It doesn't really have anything to do with virginity or purity. The parents want control over their children and the choices that their kids make. They want to insure that their kids don't make mistakes ever because they are too wrapped up in their adult children's lives.

Fundie parents must be very frightened people.

From a girl's perspective, a courtship takes off a lot of pressure since it puts her father in between her and the potential suitor as an extra layer of protection. She claims that there is still some pressure but because her father is along with her, it's not as stressful since he's able to shield her from unwanted suitors.

How is she old enough to marry if she needs her dad to make certain that she never makes the wrong decision?

.

Allow me to explain behind their reasoning: at the age of 16, Valerie and her dad signed a covenant, stating that she will submit to her father until her wedding day, seek her father's counsel and guidance during the courtship process, and remain pure until the wedding day.

:ew: Your dad should not be concerned with your vagina.

During courtship phase, no terms of endearment were allowed (sweetie, honey, dear, love) and that flowers were okay but red roses should be given after engagement (since it signifies love).

Cuz red roses are the devil's flower! Just be glad that a girl hadn't given Valerie a red rose, they would be running off to New York for a same sex marriage now. We all know it is the color and type of flower that makes people want to have sex with one another.

. Valerie was 30 when she was courting Adam,

What the hell? Thirty years old and she couldn't be trusted to touch the man without dissolving into a puddle of lust? I think that is pretty strong evidence that courtship and fundamentalism produces immature human beings.

Just from my perspective, I lusted for my husband BEFORE we went on the first date and we are happily married twenty-five years later. Of course, we also had sex very early in our relationship so I'm probably not the type of person that they would hold up as an example. :lol:

[DGayle]

My parents used to try keeping me from ever making what they considered to be mistakes. There wasn't a biblical basis though we did church (atheist now), just that they made tons and didn't want me to do the same thing. I started sneaking out, and finally ended up screaming at my parents that they had to let me make mistakes because I wasn't going to learn properly unless I got to experience the natural negative consequences of my actions. I was 16 when I did that and expected to be in trouble. My dad told me I was right, and the reins were loosened and to their pleasant surprise, the world didn't end.

I feel so bad for those kids who are in these situations. They're so stuck. The Bateses are more lenient, but I think only because they don't have time to be as strict. And the supervised conversation, which CC'ing e-mails is, prevents these people from getting to know each other. If you're scared about what the wedding night might be like, who better to talk to about that than your fiance? Maybe he could make you feel better in a way your daddy couldn't.

[Dysfundamental]

I think we know why the grace of God allowed Pecan Thief to touch Priscilla without sending him into crazed lustfulness...

[Toothfairy]

My parents wanted me to find a spouse through courtship. They told me dating leads to sex and can play with people's emotions. :hand: You can date, not have sex, and date with a purpose. Courtship(fundie courtships) is much more painful than dating. Having the whole family involved in your dating life watching your every move is ridiculous. Never being alone to talk and get to know each other. What happens if the guy is abusive? How will the family know? Instead of trying to control their kids, let them date with rules instead of worrying about giving away pieces of your heart.

[bumblebee]

My parents wanted me to find a spouse through courtship. They told me dating leads to sex and can play with people's emotions. :hand: You can date, not have sex, and date with a purpose. Courtship(fundie courtships) is much more painful than dating. Having the whole family involved in your dating life watching your every move is ridiculous. Never being alone to talk and get to know each other. What happens if the guy is abusive? How will the family know? Instead of trying to control their kids, let them date with rules instead of worrying about giving away pieces of your heart.

I've read a few horror stories where the guy turned out to be incredibly abusive once they were allowed alone together and by that time the girls were "stuck". I imagine for the right type of asshole it would be incredibly easy to pass Daddy's questionnaire and have everyone convince you're the perfect Christian Headship.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I have friends who didn't have physical contact with their spouse before the wedding (although some weren't always religious, so they had previous experience with others). While it's very different from my experience, in those circles, it seems to work. I have heard, however, about some couples taking more than one night to consummate the marriage.

To a certain extent in my community, it's not just about "we're so horny that we may be tempted", although part of it is a desire to prevent pre-marital sex. The other aspect, though, is social norms. In my neighbourhood, being part of certain religious communities or dressing a certain way means identifying as part of a specific groups, and each group has its rules for how the dating thing is done. Holding hands wouldn't necessarily mean that you were about to have sex, but it would be a signal that you were crossing the line on the rules of the group, which in turn would prompt other questions about how committed you were. On the flip side, I suppose, declaring that you were saving it for marriage would be considered weird if you weren't part of the Orthodox community.

What seems weirder to me is the lack of privacy during courtship. My friends had a chance to have deep conversations with their future spouse, and there wasn't any stigma to deciding that a person wasn't a good match for them.

When I think about it, one surprising thing is that the marriages of people that I know don't look all that different, regardless of how the couple got together. Those who had a tons of sexual partners before marriage eventually decided to settle down and shifted into committed monogamous spouse and parent mode, and those who had no physical contact before marriage shifted into enjoying the physical part of marriage mode.