Defending First Time Obedience

[debrand]

My kids have always been decently behaved children, not perfect but perfection would be boring. Once an older woman scolded me for counting to three because my I counted to three with my youngest child. She tried to convince me that my kids should instantly obey and do so with a smile. I ignored her but I probably should have told her off for offering unasked for advice especially as my kids were as well behaved as any other of the other children in the church.

I came across an article defending first time, obedience and thought it would be interesting to discuss. Someone asked the writer why every family that she knew who practiced first time obedience had fearful, unhappy children. The writer's response:

Comparing or judging the GFI material based on the results you see in families is the same as comparing Betty Crocker cookbooks by the way the food tastes at people’s houses that use them.

Um...yes, I would. One person might mess up a recipe but if I was repeatedly served bad meals that my friends made from the same cookbook, it would be reasonable to believe that the recipes were at fault.

T

he child should not ask for an explanation prior to obedience; we are not discussing with the child whether or not they should obey. We are happy to give our reasoning to the child after there is appropriate response and action, but we do not justify our directions to the child so they can decide if the directions are worthy of obedience. That would indicate a prideful heart-attitude. This does not mean that children should obey blindly just anyone in their lives as they grow older; at that point they should always use wisdom and hold any instructions up against God’s Word – but this post is specifically about the parent-child relationship, and the child’s relationship with the Lord.

She is training her children how to react to authority figures. Just because she says so doesn't mean that her children will ignore their early training or know how to express why they disagree with someone.

n. We are teaching our children to be on purpose in their lives as well, and as Christians this is largely based on God’s direction and authority.

I quoted this because I have never heard any fundie use the word, purpose in this way.

First-time obedience is important for basic physical safety. If we ever need protect them from danger by saying to them when a car is coming, “Get out of the street!†they need to obey immediately, not start a debate with us as to whether or not they agree or should have to obey.

Unless you are the type of person who yells often, most kids will respond to genuine fear and urgency in a parent's voice.

We would really love to be a fly-on-the-wall in the homes of Dough & Beal Phillips (Vision Forum Ministries), or Voddie & Bridget Baucham (both rich resource people listed at the end of this post), to see how they teach first-time obedience well in the real-life day in and day out.

This was written in 2011.

argefamiliesonpurpose.com/2011/05/first-time-obedience-for-children.html

[Odd1Out]

"We would really love to be a fly-on-the-wall in the homes of Dough & Beal Phillips "

Wouldn't we all!!

[lemonhead]

First time obedience makes me nauseated. Children are human beings, not slaves or machines to be controlled like puppets.

My parents believed in first time obedience, to a great extent. They were quick to punish disobedience or sullenness with beatings. Their approach taught me to be afraid, sneaky and resentful, not smiling and respectful.

I've tried to be a different parent with my kids. With my oldest--who was an extremely bright and verbal child from the beginning (we joke that he started talking at 6 months and hasn't stopped yet, even in his sleep :D )--we realized early on the need to explain our requests to him in an age-appropriate manner. Once he understood the reason for a command or request, he was and still is generally prompt and cheerful about following through. He has learned a lot about critical thinking and that there is order and meaning in the world. This was good for us too, as it forced us to really think about why we were making some parenting decisions. We also learned to think very carefully before saying "No" to something, and to have a legitimately good reason for doing so.

My younger child was blessed with my determination (or stubbornness, as my mom called it). We have learned that explaining or reasoning may not always work with her as it does with our son, but there are other ways to get her to do what we want, without resorting to threats or physical violence.

I spanked my son once, when he was a toddler and I was in a very bad place, emotionally. I regret it and always will.

[DGayle]

How sad that this in an improvement still over the Pearls who beat the bloody hell out of kids who even look like they're even just thinking about doing something.

[Mama Mia]

I wonder how many of the ones who are adamant on this issue have a small number of children? This seems to me like something a parent with a million kids would be more likely to embrace. One, or even two, little kids asking " why" to every single thing is barely even irritating.......but if you have seven or eight kids all questioning what you say it could get extremely aggravating and overwhelming.

Don't think it's a good concept, but I wonder how much of the hard core parenting beliefs are more about the parent trying to keep from losing their minds with so many kids. And I wonder if overall the parents with just a few kids are less harsh.

[Cleopatra7]

I wonder how many of the ones who are adamant on this issue have a small number of children? This seems to me like something a parent with a million kids would be more likely to embrace. One, or even two, little kids asking " why" to every single thing is barely even irritating.......but if you have seven or eight kids all questioning what you say it could get extremely aggravating and overwhelming.

Don't think it's a good concept, but I wonder how much of the hard core parenting beliefs are more about the parent trying to keep from losing their minds with so many kids. And I wonder if overall the parents with just a few kids are less harsh.

I think with the families we talk about, the issue is not the number of kids they have, but with a worldview that values respecting authority above all else. These various fundie sub-cultures are all responses to the 1960s. This is particularly true with Gothard/ATI, but you can see it with VF in the way that it emphasizes patriarchal authority to the extent that mothers are practically non-existant. They think that children are inherently willful and rebellious from birth and the only way to change this is to literally beat it out of them. Even if these families only had one or two children, they would still expect "first-time obedience" from them.

[uber frau]

Yes,I think it's more popular among large families but it's not restricted to them. I'm a member of a Christian positive parenting board (even though I'm a heathen) and there's often threads started by newcomers who need to be convinced (or reassured) that first time obedience isn't necessary or healthy. Some areas and denominations are more prone to it than others, but there seems to be a culture of 'Christian' parenting that is actually rebranded old-fashioned parenting dressed up a bit. Because the fifties were a holy era when everyone went to church and was respectful and no one got divorced or did drugs. Or something.

It's a cultural hangover that that geys peddled as 'Christian' just like the GOP gets peddled as 'Christian'.

[debrand]

Yes,I think it's more popular among large families but it's not restricted to them. I'm a member of a Christian positive parenting board (even though I'm a heathen) and there's often threads started by newcomers who need to be convinced (or reassured) that first time obedience isn't necessary or healthy. Some areas and denominations are more prone to it than others, but there seems to be a culture of 'Christian' parenting that is actually rebranded old-fashioned parenting dressed up a bit. Because the fifties were a holy era when everyone went to church and was respectful and no one got divorced or did drugs. Or something.

It's a cultural hangover that that geys peddled as 'Christian' just like the GOP gets peddled as 'Christian'.

How do you convince them that first time, cheerful obedience is unhealthy?

[Mama Mia]

I think with the families we talk about, the issue is not the number of kids they have, but with a worldview that values respecting authority above all else. These various fundie sub-cultures are all responses to the 1960s. This is particularly true with Gothard/ATI, but you can see it with VF in the way that it emphasizes patriarchal authority to the extent that mothers are practically non-existant. They think that children are inherently willful and rebellious from birth and the only way to change this is to literally beat it out of them. Even if these families only had one or two children, they would still expect "first-time obedience" from them.

Oh yeah, I get that they are doing it for philosophical reasons, I'm just wondering if in practice it tends to be larger families that are more strict about it, and harsh in their discipline in general. So the whole quiverfull / huge family goal reinforces their other beliefs about child rearing. If that makes sense.

We raised a large blended family and at times would have more than half a dozen kids under the age of 10. It was very chaotic and very loud and while they weren't quite as feral as the younger Duggar kids, they definitely would get out of control. So I can see why these large families would grasp on to these beliefs more than smaller families....or maybe it's a chicken and egg question.

[uber frau]

It's a positive parenting board so the posters are already interested in positive parenting (which, by definition, doesn't include first time obedience as a valid goal), usually their having issues with the 'Christian' model that insists you need to break your children before you can build them up . Most of the time new posters simply need reassurance that it's possible to have respectful, well behaved children without first time obedience and that there's plenty of data to show that it's harmful. The other issue that comes up tends to be something to the effect of "I need to teach my toddler to stay away from danger". The response to that is that it's not a toddler's job to stay away from danger, it's the parent's job to ensure they are safe. Having a child who has been punished into first time obedience tends to a) keep the child in a stage of oblivion longer since they dont get to learn by making minor mistakes and b) that dangerous situations to be overlooked or underestimated because the parents assume a toddler will respond immediately, even though even the best 'trained' toddler doesn't respond 100% of the time.

[lilah]

Oh so this was written by Erika she is a complete control freak.

[August]

I wonder how many of the ones who are adamant on this issue have a small number of children? This seems to me like something a parent with a million kids would be more likely to embrace. One, or even two, little kids asking " why" to every single thing is barely even irritating.......but if you have seven or eight kids all questioning what you say it could get extremely aggravating and overwhelming.

Don't think it's a good concept, but I wonder how much of the hard core parenting beliefs are more about the parent trying to keep from losing their minds with so many kids. And I wonder if overall the parents with just a few kids are less harsh.

My parenting definitely suffers when I'm overwhelmed. I think it's a no-brainer that people with so many closely spaced children would rarely have the emotional resources to be a good parent to them all. And since they don't consider the decision to have each new child it's not the people who have that extra patience who have the huge families. My friends with 3 or 4 children are more patient and calm than I am. Normal people look at their family, think about themselves and their resources and then decide to have another, or stop, each time. Fundies just want all the babies now, and damn the consequences.

[Trynn]

Apparently in the 1800s people believed children should just obey their parents, and that would keep them safe.

How many children in the 1800s died from preferable accidents? I have no statistics, but It would be interesting to see.

[debrand]

Apparently in the 1800s people believed children should just obey their parents, and that would keep them safe.

How many children in the 1800s died from preferable accidents? I have no statistics, but It would be interesting to see.

I used to like those PBS shows about families who were set up to live in another era. It might have been 1900 House that stated that a large percentage of child death's came from being scalded on washing day

[salex]

Yes,I think it's more popular among large families but it's not restricted to them. I'm a member of a Christian positive parenting board (even though I'm a heathen) and there's often threads started by newcomers who need to be convinced (or reassured) that first time obedience isn't necessary or healthy. Some areas and denominations are more prone to it than others, but there seems to be a culture of 'Christian' parenting that is actually rebranded old-fashioned parenting dressed up a bit. Because the fifties were a holy era when everyone went to church and was respectful and no one got divorced or did drugs. Or something.

It's a cultural hangover that that geys peddled as 'Christian' just like the GOP gets peddled as 'Christian'.

What is funny about that is that I have, sitting on my desk, a child training book my mother was given by her grandmother when I was a baby called "Training Children from the beginning as "unto the Lord". By Gustava M Wonderly. (sounds like a real name....?)

It talks about disciplining children-- ie, if a child didn't close his eyes during grace, they suggested having said child close his eyes for the lenght of time grace had taken before giving him his meal...stealing cookies or other things was disciplined as follows "

"rather than chastise a child when you find he has stolen cookies or any other small object, hold him close and with kisses and embraces assure him that you live him very dearly. Then, as you sorrowfully tell him that you know he took the object without asking for it, he will, as a rule, liste to your loving advice concerning the wrong deed. Tell him that the dear Lord Jesus is not hapy to see him thus disobey Him, but that he will always forgive us when we are sorry for our wrong doings and ask to be forgiven (scripture quote here)

You may pray first, telling the Lord that you are so sorry that your child grieved Him and thanking Him that He is always ready to forgive sin when we are sorry and confess it. After your prayer, the cild will pray as you lead him. DO not leave him until he asks God to helm him not to do the thing again If you let your children help you Bake the cookies and confidently let them see where they are kept, they will likely be as confident to tell you when they are "cookie hungry," knowing that you will get some for them, or tell them the number they may have.

She also points out that "there is no cut and dried way to train children, as they are all different" and warns against using things like sending the child to his bed too often, as it will make being sent to bed at bedtime feel like a punishment. She says "no child becomes suddenly willfully disobedient" (as opposed to the fundies today who believe babies are born willfully disobedient) and recommends what we'd call time outs today.

She is not against spanking, but does not promote it as the main form of punishment... she says "Correction or punishment should always be given in kindness and says "We cannot explain to the very young children all our dealings with them, but I know from experience that the young child needs no really painful punishments. Hand slaps that sting for children over one, on occasion, a few swats for older kids, if needed. But she warns about being driving your child to wrath and spending too much time lecturing....

I'd take her methods from the 50s over the Pearls any day of the week.

[Rebelwife]

I'll fully the own the fact that I have a couple of parenting triggers that send me over the edge. One of them is me asking my child to do something and having them tell me this isn't a good time while basically ignoring me. I don't know if I can explain it well - it's more of an "I know it when I see it." For example, if I'm in the kitchen and call for child #1 to set the table and she says "in a minute...." while continuing to do exactly what she was doing it irritates me. On the other hand, if she says "This show only has 5 minutes left, can I do it then?" I'm OK with that. Sometimes I might say no with an explanation "No, dinner's going to be ready in a couple of minutes, I need you to do it now" but most of the time I'm fine with it. I think is just a matter of my request being acknowledged in a respectful way.

We do ask kid #2 to obey us (don't like "obey" but "acquiesce" seems a little cumbersome) before she starts reasoning with us, but that's because she could argue about anything all day long. If she's coloring with sharpies on the kitchen table and I tell her not to do that because in the past it's bled through, I don't want her to keep coloring while she explains to me she's put double paper under what she's working on and she'll be really careful. I want her to put the sharpie down before she gives her side. I'm a pretty reasonable parent and my kids know I'm very willing to change my mind if they can give me a good explanation, but don't keep doing what you're doing while trying to talk me into it.

I did count to 3 with kid #2. I'm not sure how it started, but it worked like a charm. I don't know what she thought would happen if I ever got to 3 (I never said and didn't know myself and we didn't spank) but man she'd jump like she'd been shocked. It cracked me up, because it was so out of nowhere. :lol: I'm fine with counting to 3 or 10 or whatever when it's done appropriately - not as a threat but as a chance for the kid to regroup and listen. We also did a lot of time warnings when they were very young: "you can slide 3 more times but then we have to leave the park" and "we can stay at J.'s house for 5 more minutes and then we have to go home." I'd hate to be jerked out of something I'm enjoying without warning and I imagined my kids would hate it to.

[Ms Jess]

I counted with my kids when they were preschool age. If I had, for example, asked my eldest son to put on his shoes so we could leave the house and he pretended he hadn't heard me, I'd ask again and tell him that he had to the count of three to get his shoes or I would have to help. If and when I got to three and he hadn't done it, I helped him along. For him, this worked wonders because he is such an independent kid that he hated to be helped. He'd much rather comply and do it on his own. My ex-husband hated when I did that because he was (and is) firmly in the first time obedience camp. I tried to show him that it worked with our eldest and he refused to listen. It's one of many, many reasons we are divorced now. But that's another story.

Counting didn't work with my youngest child because he'd prefer that I do all of his shoe putting-on anyway. He'd purposefully wait out my count of three. So I did other things with him, like reward quick shoe putting-on with a few extra minutes of play time. That's the beauty of knowing your children and being the best parent you can be for that child -- not one size fits all kids parenting.

[twinmama]

Once an older woman scolded me for counting to three because my I counted to three with my youngest child. She tried to convince me that my kids should instantly obey and do so with a smile.

What good is a smile if it isn't genuine? And no matter what your methods of discipline, you cannot control your child's emotions. I'd rather my kid listen to me and sulk, if that is what he is honestly feeling.

[docmom]

That's the beauty of knowing your children and being the best parent you can be for that child -- not one size fits all kids parenting.

Amen, momma! My oldest is tough, will argue the hind leg off a donkey, and acts like he couldn't care less about any sanction. We read all the books which promised their way worked for all kids. None of them worked for him. Eventually we figured out that he just has a huge need to be in control. He has a serious medical condition and has spent a fair bit of his childhood in painful situations which he cannot control. Now when we need him to do something, we let him have choices, we let him have time to decide what he wants to do, and if there is a need to sanction him, having him spend some time alone to think things through almost always works. I hate to think what first time obedience would have done to this kid. On the other hand, his sister is a pleaser. Wants to do everything she can to make us happy. Would walk off a cliff if told to. Our job is to train her out of automatic obedience!

[Rebelwife]

Amen, momma! My oldest is tough, will argue the hind leg off a donkey, and acts like he couldn't care less about any sanction. We read all the books which promised their way worked for all kids. None of them worked for him. Eventually we figured out that he just has a huge need to be in control. He has a serious medical condition and has spent a fair bit of his childhood in painful situations which he cannot control. Now when we need him to do something, we let him have choices, we let him have time to decide what he wants to do, and if there is a need to sanction him, having him spend some time alone to think things through almost always works. I hate to think what first time obedience would have done to this kid. On the other hand, his sister is a pleaser. Wants to do everything she can to make us happy. Would walk off a cliff if told to. Our job is to train her out of automatic obedience!

I have one like this and it scares me to death. When she was little I was the only mom saying "Your sister isn't the boss of you! Tell her that!" The only thing that lets me sleep at night is that she is very introverted as well so she doesn't get hung up on social acceptance anxiety. If she likes you she wants to please you a lot, but there are not a lot of people she likes that much. :lol:

[2xx1xy1JD]

I wonder how many of the ones who are adamant on this issue have a small number of children? This seems to me like something a parent with a million kids would be more likely to embrace. One, or even two, little kids asking " why" to every single thing is barely even irritating.......but if you have seven or eight kids all questioning what you say it could get extremely aggravating and overwhelming.

Don't think it's a good concept, but I wonder how much of the hard core parenting beliefs are more about the parent trying to keep from losing their minds with so many kids. And I wonder if overall the parents with just a few kids are less harsh.

The best parenting teacher I ever had was a mother of 12-and-counting. We went for dinner at her house and the kids were respectful and helpful.

She based her lessons on things she had learned from Rabbi Noach Orlowek, and recommended his book "Raising Roses Among the Thorns", which opposed corporal punishment and the whole idea of focusing on obedience and punishment. Instead, idea is that you build as strong a bond as possible so that your child wants to be with you and follow your example, and then you make sure to live your life in a way that sets a really good moral example for them. If there is a recurring problem, you take some quiet time to think through possible solutions, and you break big problems down into manageable pieces. If a confrontation is really unavoidable, the parent needs to prevail, but confrontations are to be avoided if at all possible.

I only have 3 kids, but my personal experience so far is that a bit of effort earlier on makes things MUCH easier now. Respect was a huge deal for me - I insisted that my husband and I treat each other with respect, that we treat the children with respect, and that we expect the kids to treat us with respect. Set the tone early, and it becomes a habit. Yes, stuff needs to get reinforced from time to time, because a frustrated, tired or hormonal child will occasionally act out, but the overall way of doing things in the home is that we don't swear, don't use name-calling or insults, don't put people down, don't bully, always say please and thank you, and expect everyone to take care of certain responsibilities. I'm not big on obedience per se. My kids know the reasons behind the big rules, and they can appreciate them, so I don't need to worry that they'll go off-course if I stop watching them and ordering them around.

Dictatorships are good at demanding absolute obedience, but bad at developing true values and loyalty. The moment they let down their guard, all hell breaks loose. I have no desire to model my household after North Korea, Nazi Germany or Assad's Syria. In my mind, focusing too much on unconditional obedience leads to a child who would say "I was just following orders" which leads to little Nazis. [sorry if this sounds like a Godwin argument, but it was actually a pretty common view when I was growing up and a big reason that most of my family and friends see unconditional obedience as evil.]