Granny feels she has to right to convert grandson to AOG

[Lillybee]

Another Christian claiming persecution. This is a great essay.

politicususa.com/grandmother-persecuted-allowed-convert-grandson.html

[redcurls]

She is a member of the Assemblies of God. This is a group that, even in my LCA Lutheran days, I would not have recognized as Christian

Anyone know why? I've been wondering about the AoG lately anyway.

[dora]

I don't know anything about AoG but I have similar problems with my mother in law. We are not too different - the kids and I are Roman Catholic, and my husband and his parents are Anglican. We got married in his church, agreeing that the children would be baptised in mine.

I don't mind my mother in law taking the children to her church, and even go out if my way to attend an Anglican Church when she is in town. My problem is her 'forgetting' that I don't want my children to take communion (in any church) until the have made their First Communion. Also, she refused to attend mass with us at Christmas, and seems to think we are weird and worship Mary.

Like the article's author, my problem is not with the differences in religion but in refusing to recognise and respect how my husband and I choose to raise our children.

[lilwriter85]

One of my high school teachers was an AOG minister. Some AOG churches are stricter than others. My former teacher's church banned Halloween, piercings, and certain forms of media. I remember he told us that he advised his church members to ban Harry Potter in their households.

[Lillybee]

My daughter has gone fundie lite, but I know that I do not have the right to try and convert her kids to my brand of secular humanism.

[E Street Fan]

Anyone know why? I've been wondering about the AoG lately anyway.

Maybe because of speaking in tongues? I knew some AoG when I lived in Kansas; they talked about speaking in tongues and some other practices that a mainstream believer might consider extreme.

[Marianne]

It reminds me the first thing said by my grandfather when he learned that his son was converted to Catholicism. "You're not my son. If you believe in God, if you don't vote or vote other than socialist, you're not my children. "And they didn't speak again. I think we can say that IT is more like a religious discrimination/persecution.

[julie paradox]

I don't mind my mother in law taking the children to her church, and even go out of my way to attend an Anglican Church when she is in town. My problem is her 'forgetting' that I don't want my children to take communion (in any church) until they have made their First Communion.

I find that quite odd. As an Anglican, she shouldn't be encouraging them to take communion until they've been either Confirmed or formally Admitted To Communion.

Also, she refused to attend mass with us at Christmas,

well, wouldn't you be a bit miffed by a church that told you you couldn't take the sacrament?

and seems to think we are weird and worship Mary.

You mean you don't? :wink-kitty:

[rollmeover]

I don't know, it seems an odd essay to me. I think his conception of martyrdom is bogus - yes a few idiots of all faiths have been unreasonably eager to "die for their faith" but most martyrs are people who won't give in to bullies and murderers and unjust laws. We are Catholics and I know that when our kids go to spend time with family and friends they get exposed to different faiths, different Christian denominations, and secular beliefs that go from militant atheism to "can't be arsed to think about it" - and I don't see that as a problem since bring around different beliefs and possibly passing through a variety of them oneself in the course of a lifetime is totally normal.

The dad sounds as smug and essentially uncompromising as the gran to me. If his son is secure in his beliefs, going to church or reading a bible wont hurt him, and if he does decide that when he's with gran he will be a Christian, so what? No parent can control their child's thoughts and beliefs. His son will still be the same sweet heart whether he thanks Thor, Jesus, science or Buddha for his meals.

[DistantStar]

I find that quite odd. As an Anglican, she shouldn't be encouraging them to take communion until they've been either Confirmed or formally Admitted To Communion.

Depends on the Anglicans in question - at my heathen Episcopalian church it's open to anybody. Technically you should at least be baptized but our priest says he's not going to start quizzing people who come up that he doesn't know on their baptismal/Confirmation status.

[patsymae]

I find that quite odd. As an Anglican, she shouldn't be encouraging them to take communion until they've been either Confirmed or formally Admitted To Communion.

well, wouldn't you be a bit miffed by a church that told you you couldn't take the sacrament?

You mean you don't? :wink-kitty:

No, Catholics don't worship Mary. And I would never consider taking the sacraments of a church that I don't belong to--nor would I be offended at the idea that the church prefers to give sacraments only to its members. I don't get the whole thing of being so miffed that Catholic sacraments are for Catholics--I would be really surprised if, say, a Baptist church agreed to baptize Coptic Christians, or a Greek Orthodox church agreed to marry Lutherans. So why is it so appalling to so many that the Catholic Church reserves its sacraments for Catholics?

[tanksmom]

The dad sounds as smug and essentially uncompromising as the gran to me. If his son is secure in his beliefs, going to church or reading a bible wont hurt him, and if he does decide that when he's with gran he will be a Christian, so what? No parent can control their child's thoughts and beliefs. His son will still be the same sweet heart whether he thanks Thor, Jesus, science or Buddha for his meals.

I had a bit of a different impression about the article and how granny is acting. It seems to me that he doesn't have an issue with her religion and to a point even her preaching to his son. But in his opinion she is taking it to far. He mentions her praying over the grandson. If the prayer was something as simple as "bless us and the time together" I would say he is over-reacting. However I'm willing to bet it is much closer to "my son has already been consigned to burn forever but please save my grandsons soul from the everlasting fires of hell before it's too late"

But I might be reading it that way since I had a relative who acted in a very similar manner growing up. It's easy to say ignore it, explain that said family member has different views but to a child someone who is extremely religous can be very scary. I remember my aunt praying over my cabbage patch dolls everynight that the evil spirits trapped in them wouldn't show themselves in my dreams to try to convert me to satanism. Most people that I told said I should just ignore her but that is at the very least confusing why someone would think that way and very terrifying when I would close my eyes. Eventually we just had to cut her out of our lives for the sake of my family's sanity :cray-cray:

[docmom]

Depends on the Anglicans in question - at my heathen Episcopalian church it's open to anybody. Technically you should at least be baptized but our priest says he's not going to start quizzing people who come up that he doesn't know on their baptismal/Confirmation status.

At my very heathen Episcopalian church (with the gay priest- I love the place!) the table is open to all "of all faiths or none". We believe that it's not up to us who communes with god. However, I do understand that first communion is very important to Catholics and I'd be upset if I believed what they believe and my MIL did this.

[louisa05]

And I would never consider taking the sacraments of a church that I don't belong to--nor would I be offended at the idea that the church prefers to give sacraments only to its members. I don't get the whole thing of being so miffed that Catholic sacraments are for Catholics--I would be really surprised if, say, a Baptist church agreed to baptize Coptic Christians, or a Greek Orthodox church agreed to marry Lutherans. So why is it so appalling to so many that the Catholic Church reserves its sacraments for Catholics?

I don't get this either. I recently read a woman's screed on another forum about not being able to take communion at a Catholic mass which included an entire paragraph about why she didn't believe in communion at all, let alone the Catholic interpretation of it. I was so confused by that. Why would someone so desperately want to participate in something they do not believe in? And even if you are a Christian, if you do not believe in the Catholic interpretation of the sacraments, why would you want to be a part of those sacraments? I don't seek to participate in any ritual I do not find valid.

[Jenny]

I don't get this either. I recently read a woman's screed on another forum about not being able to take communion at a Catholic mass which included an entire paragraph about why she didn't believe in communion at all, let alone the Catholic interpretation of it. I was so confused by that. Why would someone so desperately want to participate in something they do not believe in? And even if you are a Christian, if you do not believe in the Catholic interpretation of the sacraments, why would you want to be a part of those sacraments? I don't seek to participate in any ritual I do not find valid.

I'm not Catholic but I have attended mass many times. I have never participated in communion because I feel it would be disrespectful to do so. Is at awkward feeling like the only adult not going up? Yes. To me being a good guest means respecting the customs even if i don't personally believe in them. I grew up Methodist where communion is open to all believers (even those who aren't Methodist or baptized) but when visiting a Catholic church I respect their custom of reserving communion for members in a state of grace, etc. I don't believe in women covering their heads but when I visited a mosque i wore a scarf.

A guest should be respectful a the host's customs and regulations, but the host should also be respectful of the guest's beliefs and customs. (and in the above referenced article, the beliefs of the minor guest's parents).

[infooverload]

I'm not Catholic but I have attended mass many times. I have never participated in communion because I feel it would be disrespectful to do so. Is at awkward feeling like the only adult not going up? Yes. To me being a good guest means respecting the customs even if i don't personally believe in them. I grew up Methodist where communion is open to all believers (even those who aren't Methodist or baptized) but when visiting a Catholic church I respect their custom of reserving communion for members in a state of grace, etc. I don't believe in women covering their heads but when I visited a mosque i wore a scarf.

A guest should be respectful a the host's customs and regulations, but the host should also be respectful of the guest's beliefs and customs. (and in the above referenced article, the beliefs of the minor guest's parents).

Fellow person who grew up Methodist. For confirmation we had to attend various churches and were taught to be respectful of all religions. There was never a strong urge to get people to come. I like to joke Methodists are very lazy with the whole "growing the church." If someone asks or the topic comes up we maybe like oh you want to come and if the answers no we go okay and move on. On the other hand my husband grew up in a church where the mindset everyone has to be saved and you have to do everything in your power to get them to church. His church he use to attend has alter calls and I have always been uncomfortable with those and the question of who is a visitor. I always thought it was a douche kind of thing to ask, but that is just my opinion of it.

[clone]

Anyone know why? I've been wondering about the AoG lately anyway.

I was raised AoG, but stopped going to church in the the late 80's. I think not recognizing it as Christian is a rather extreme remark. Granted, my church was very mainstream and I think back then even evangelical/fundamentalist churches were less conservative. Maybe it just seemed more reasonable to me then since I was so exposed to it, though. In any case, AoG was then pretty much like other protestant group in the basics. The differences are Baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues (which I think may have fallen off a bit)--this usually happened on Sunday nights during altar calls(prayer time for whatever, getting saved, etc.), witnessing--they definitely push "winning souls for Christ", a strong belief in the rapture/second coming up Christ. They also really pushed the Trinity of God--the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Salvation -- "asking Jesus into your heart" --(repentance of sin) as the only means to Heaven. The believed of "laying on of hands" for divine healing.

I had close baptist friends growing up and it was pretty much the same, except they were totally weirded out by the idea of speaking in tongues, and I know they were taught that it might be "of the devil". We all did water baptism and communion (with grape juice)

My church didn't think other protestants weren't true Christians, but they thought their way was the most complete and truest way. If you had "accepted Jesus as your personal savior", then you were pretty much good. It wasn't taught, but I picked up that it was generally thought Catholicism had a lot of idolatrous practices--such as what they viewed as the wrongful reverence of Mary as divine or practically so. The Roman Catholic Church was seen as the Whore of Babylon when getting into the symbolism of end times and Revelations.

So yeah, out there, but the underlying structure is based on protestant beliefs. The Azusa Street Revival in the early 1900s was really where the pentecostal movement got going, and members of a variety of protestant faiths were involved.

Sorry if this was tl;dr. :)

[louisa05]

I'm not Catholic but I have attended mass many times. I have never participated in communion because I feel it would be disrespectful to do so. Is at awkward feeling like the only adult not going up? Yes. To me being a good guest means respecting the customs even if i don't personally believe in them. I grew up Methodist where communion is open to all believers (even those who aren't Methodist or baptized) but when visiting a Catholic church I respect their custom of reserving communion for members in a state of grace, etc. I don't believe in women covering their heads but when I visited a mosque i wore a scarf.

A guest should be respectful a the host's customs and regulations, but the host should also be respectful of the guest's beliefs and customs. (and in the above referenced article, the beliefs of the minor guest's parents).

I totally agree with this.

I have sat in the pew during communion more times in my life than I have received it. I attended Catholic school for grades 7-12 and taught in a Catholic school for ten years. I was not actually Catholic until the last year I taught there. Let me assure you, no one thinks much about someone remaining in the pew during communion. Plenty of people do. And if you are attending a mass with a baptism, a first communion mass, a wedding or funeral, or are at church on Christmas or Easter, everyone likely assumes that you are a non-Catholic friend or relative of someone in the parish. Even on a regular weekend mass, people likely assume that. There are couples in our parish in which only one spouse is Catholic and the non-Catholic partner sometimes accompanies the family to church. Short version: people are going to assume that you are not Catholic, not that you have committed a mortal sin that keeps you from receiving in good conscience.

[RachelB]

I was raised AoG, but stopped going to church in the the late 80's. I think not recognizing it as Christian is a rather extreme remark. Granted, my church was very mainstream and I think back then even evangelical/fundamentalist churches were less conservative. Maybe it just seemed more reasonable to me then since I was so exposed to it, though. In any case, AoG was then pretty much like other protestant group in the basics. The differences are Baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues (which I think may have fallen off a bit)--this usually happened on Sunday nights during altar calls(prayer time for whatever, getting saved, etc.), witnessing--they definitely push "winning souls for Christ", a strong belief in the rapture/second coming up Christ. They also really pushed the Trinity of God--the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Salvation -- "asking Jesus into your heart" --(repentance of sin) as the only means to Heaven. The believed of "laying on of hands" for divine healing.

I had close baptist friends growing up and it was pretty much the same, except they were totally weirded out by the idea of speaking in tongues, and I know they were taught that it might be "of the devil". We all did water baptism and communion (with grape juice)

My church didn't think other protestants weren't true Christians, but they thought their way was the most complete and truest way. If you had "accepted Jesus as your personal savior", then you were pretty much good. It wasn't taught, but I picked up that it was generally thought Catholicism had a lot of idolatrous practices--such as what they viewed as the wrongful reverence of Mary as divine or practically so. The Roman Catholic Church was seen as the Whore of Babylon when getting into the symbolism of end times and Revelations.

So yeah, out there, but the underlying structure is based on protestant beliefs. The Azusa Street Revival in the early 1900s was really where the pentecostal movement got going, and members of a variety of protestant faiths were involved.

Sorry if this was tl;dr. :)

One of my classmates in college was AoG and tried to convert me in the laundry room, repeatedly, despite the fact that, as I accurately told him, I was a practicing Christian quite happy with the faith tradition in which I was raised. (He really didn't seem to see my faith tradition as Christianity at all.)

He also asked me one day (in the laundry room, natch) if I could please move the stuff that was in one of the dryers so he could use it.

"It's not mine, and I prefer not to move other people's clothes if I can avoid it. But if you're in a hurry, I'm sure you can handle it yourself."

"No, I can't." He blushed scarlet. "There's women's ... underthings in there."

:roll:

Do the folks you know in the AoG feel they can be defrauded by someone's uninhabited, clean underpants? Or was my classmate just being a tool?

[SomewhatFundy]

I don't know much about AoG, but I've been told some AoG churches are "Jesus Only" doctrine. Which would be a source of contention with many mainstream churches (even churches that believe in using tongues and whatnot in services.)

Clearly, not all of them are as a previous poster mentioned that they really focused a lot on the Trinity when they were involved in the AoG. Which is different than the complaints i've heard from mainstream Christians.

Anyway, all I know about AoG is that Benny Hinn guy who was on TV a lot. Casting out demons and the like.

[clone]

One of my classmates in college was AoG and tried to convert me in the laundry room, repeatedly, despite the fact that, as I accurately told him, I was a practicing Christian quite happy with the faith tradition in which I was raised. (He really didn't seem to see my faith tradition as Christianity at all.)

He also asked me one day (in the laundry room, natch) if I could please move the stuff that was in one of the dryers so he could use it.

"It's not mine, and I prefer not to move other people's clothes if I can avoid it. But if you're in a hurry, I'm sure you can handle it yourself."

"No, I can't." He blushed scarlet. "There's women's ... underthings in there."

:roll:

Do the folks you know in the AoG feel they can be defrauded by someone's uninhabited, clean underpants? Or was my classmate just being a tool?

I think he was just being a tool. ^^ Or maybe he was involved in a less mainstream branch. I went to a large church in a city. Everyone did pretty mainstream things (drinking was frowned on). You couldn't tell a difference in clothing between AoG and anyone else. I think the clothing has gotten even more lax now. When I was a kid, it was dresses for girls. Now everyone can wear jeans, for example. But I know even back then the smaller country churches were more conservative and there were more extreme sects that had big, long hair, no makeup, etc. But I wasn't really exposed to that lifestyle.

I think they were into image back then, looking normal and fitting in so they could be considered prosperous leaders of society, and I know they're into it now--controlling the PR. Like, one church changing "Assembly of God" to "The Assembly" to disassociate with negative connotations people have, having "cool", modern music, etc.

I can tell you that a lot of the AoG pastors came across as megalomaniacs or attention hounds to me, especially the music pastors/directors for the latter, lol. I think they all would have been happier on Broadway or something, if they could've admitted that.

[clone]

I don't know much about AoG, but I've been told some AoG churches are "Jesus Only" doctrine. Which would be a source of contention with many mainstream churches (even churches that believe in using tongues and whatnot in services.)

Clearly, not all of them are as a previous poster mentioned that they really focused a lot on the Trinity when they were involved in the AoG. Which is different than the complaints i've heard from mainstream Christians.

Anyway, all I know about AoG is that Benny Hinn guy who was on TV a lot. Casting out demons and the like.

Back when I was involved, those groups were considered more of a sect/cult type thing. Misguided in any case. The Holiness pentecostals were considered extremists/legalists and the Oneness just wrong.

Benny Hinn was after my time. :) Jimmy Swaggart was THE AoG televangelist of choice back in the day. People LOVED him. My grandmother watched him all the time. He was Jerry Lee Lewis' cousin. I'm telling all AoG preachers are wanna be celebs/actors/entertainers. Except with more blind devotion. Jim Bakker and Tammy Faye were watched but considered more of a freak show even by AoG church people.

[dora]

In answer to the Anglican communion question, my husband had a First Communion when he was young but now they seem to open it up to anyone, they first gave my kids communion. Here when they were about two years old.

Plenty of people don't take communion, for whatever reasons, I never think twice. I take communion at the Anglican churches I have been to. My husband has take. Communion at Catholic chirches sometimes, it's not like anyone asks and I'm not going to stop him, it's his own business.

[shrillharpy]

I grew up AoG. I'm still recovering. :roll:

I won't get into all the weirdness, but i will say that NONE of the people I went to church with, including my relatives and the pastors of our church are still with the AoG. I don't think that's a coincidence.

On a side note, a friend invited me to an AoG church years ago, after I had flown the coop. It was a couple of thousand miles from where I had grown up, so I thought it might be different than what I had experienced growing up.

It was. I left the service thinking "Our church back home was freaky, but not *that* freaky."

Granny needs to step back. This will not end well.

Edited for riffles

[FaustianSlip]

On the Anglican/Episcopalian communion thing, I think how formalized your first communion is depends on how "high church" your particular parish is. I grew up in a fairly middle-of-the-road parish, where communion was open to anyone baptized, and children were allowed to begin receiving basically at their parents' discretion. We didn't have a formal "First Communion" ceremony of any kind, and you didn't have to wait until Confirmation, but most kids started receiving around six or seven, I think. My grandmother, who was raised Episcopalian in what I assume was a very "high church" parish, used to have to go to Confession every week before taking communion the following day, which is very Catholic.

As for the communion at Catholic Mass thing, it's a big issue for a lot of Christians, I think because it's perceived as an implication that the Catholic church does not consider them "Christian enough" to be worthy of taking communion. I know that it rubbed me the wrong way the first time I heard of it, and it also became an issue for things like Girl Scout Sunday, which was traditionally held at a different denomination's church each year on a rotational basis. One year, when I was a kid, the local Catholic Bishop made a point of making a big announcement, saying, "Catholic Girl Scouts should not be attending Girl Scout Sunday services at other parishes, because it does not fulfill their Sunday Mass obligation. On the other hand, if Girl Scouts from other denominations want to come to our church, well, that's great!" I now recognize this more as a slap against the Girl Scouts (being the evil, feminist organization that they are- this must have been a particularly conservative Bishop) than Girl Scout Sunday in and of itself, but at the time, it was a big deal, because it split up Girl Scout troops into Catholics versus non-Catholics, and if the non-Catholic girls were roped into going to Catholic services every year, it also meant that they were all barred from taking communion, which was seen as sort of exclusionary, particularly when the whole thing was no longer a fair rotation amongst the various local churches. It had been a complete non-issue before, and it was a kind of shitty thing for the Bishop in question to inject this tension into a place where there had previously been none.

To be clear, I would never have dreamed of taking communion in a Catholic church as a kid, and my mother always made it very clear to me if I went with friends or something that I shouldn't take communion, because it wasn't respectful, transubstantiation, et cetera, but that argument becomes much harder to swallow if you're an Anglican and the Novus Ordo, Catholic services is almost word-for-word identical to your Episcopal service from the Book of Common Prayer. It was when I made that connection that I started saying, "Wait a second, what are they doing that's so special in their services when their services are exactly like ours?" Obviously, it's more complex than that, but for a lot of Protestants who aren't fully aware of the theological reasoning behind it, that's essentially how it comes off. Now I no longer care one way or the other, because I'm no longer a Christian, and I occupy myself with Jewish infighting, which has similar tensions (see also the Conversion Debate, egalitarianism and patrilineal descent).