Guidelines for Holocaust references

[2xx1xy1JD]

Attention: All fundies and political activists of all stripes

Question: When, if ever, are Holocaust references and comparisons appropriate?

Answer: When one is actually discussing a topic related to the Holocaust, or a genocide of somewhat similar horrific proportions.

Question: Why be anal about this?

Answer: Because the Holocaust was an actual historic event, involving real people. It minimizes or even denies the horror of what they experienced when it is casually compared to things of far less severity. Eventually, we stop reacting to the horror of the actual event, because everything is compared to Hitler or the Holocaust.

Examples of good and bad usage:

GOOD: Reference to historic and ongoing discrimination against the Roma (aka "Gypsies").

Reason: They were also targeted for extermination in the Holocaust, many are still living in countries where they historically faced discrimination.

BAD: "Holocaust on your plate" campaign by PETA.

Reason: When you compare something horrific (the Holocaust) to something fairly mundane (eating meat), it makes the real atrocity seem as though it's not so bad.

GOOD: Reference to Rwandan genocide

Reason: The scale of the killing (approx. 8,000/day), the propaganda against one ethnic group, the targeting of women and children, the goal of eliminating the Tutsis, etc. all indicate that a genocide was taking place, and the horror was legitimately on par with the Holocaust in many respects.

BAD: Claiming that the horror of the Holocaust pales in comparison to the lives lost to abortion (esp. when you are referring to first-trimester abortions, and even more so when you are including inflated estimates of "abortions" caused by birth control pills)

Reason: See why PETA comparison was bad.

[darareaksmey]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

One more letter to the editor that included the phrase "Holocaust of abortion" and I was going to get stabby.

Another thing that has irked me about the anniversary commemoration of Roe v. Wade: the constant reference to 55 million "deaths by abortion." Assuming for the sake of argument that that number is valid, has anyone thought about what it would be like if those 55 million had all gone to term and been born? Roughly 100 million more Americans would be parents right now, whether they wanted to or not, and we can guess that most of them didn't want to be parents and would've responded accordingly. Fifty-five million more children growing up in a society that doesn't generally care if they get adequate health care, or if their education suits their needs. And I'm not even thinking too deeply about this.

[IceTwinkie]

Thank you for this. I get irritated with people who have never read or have chosen to forget the actual history of WWII.

[GolightlyGrrl]

Shut the fuck up, Meth Brows.

generationcedar.com/main/2013/01/feminism-the-real-war-against-women.html

[2xx1xy1JD]

Where does that 55 million figure come from?

Here's what I could find in terms of legitimate numbers:

http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/d ... ortion.htm - that's under a million/year, and the population is growing so the numbers would likely have been lower in the past.

Also, 91.7% took place in the first trimester, and 69% of those took place at or before 8 weeks. Technically, we aren't even talking about fetuses with the majority of abortions - we are talking about embryos. If you want to argue that even an embryo is a potential human life, or that you believe that it possesses a soul - knock yourself out. Just stick to the facts, please.

[slickcat79]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

One more letter to the editor that included the phrase "Holocaust of abortion" and I was going to get stabby.

Another thing that has irked me about the anniversary commemoration of Roe v. Wade: the constant reference to 55 million "deaths by abortion." Assuming for the sake of argument that that number is valid, has anyone thought about what it would be like if those 55 million had all gone to term and been born? Roughly 100 million more Americans would be parents right now, whether they wanted to or not, and we can guess that most of them didn't want to be parents and would've responded accordingly. Fifty-five million more children growing up in a society that doesn't generally care if they get adequate health care, or if their education suits their needs. And I'm not even thinking too deeply about this.

Plus, you would have 55 million additional people born who were disproportionately poor and/or disabled. 55 million more people (many of whom would be adults by now) who need resources like SNAP, TANF, Medicaid, SSD and a host of other programs that most so-called pro-lifers want to defund or dismantle at every opportunity. I wish these people would quit whining about overtuning RvW and do something that might actually have a chance of decreasing the abortion rate.

More to the original point, there was a lot more to the holocaust that just people dying, and to compare it to abortion is really insulting. Unless someone is using forced abortions to systematically destroy a particular ethnic group or culture, then abortion does not and will not ever meet the qualifications for a genocidal holocaust.

[Dinorah]

My impression is that some people, and fundies in particular, have llittle idea what the Holocaust was actually like. They might have some vague notion of "lots of people being killed" but they have never, say, picked a survivor's memoir. Because there's just no way you can compare the elimination of a non-sentient embryo with what human beings who could actually feel pain, fear, anger, despair, humiliation, went through in the camps, whether they survived or not.

The analogies between abortion and the Holocaust have always deeply irked me and I don't get the extent to which they seem to be tollerated. I remember, years ago, I was watching a talk show in my country, where on occasion of some anniversary or other, a Holocaust survivor was interviewed. Then, because elections were approaching, a some woman from a pro-life organization was interviewed as well and said: "there's no difference whatsoever between the Holocaust and abortion!". I cringed deeply for the poor survivor and more so because no one told her how inappropriate her statement was.

[nomoxian]

I remember, years ago, I was watching a talk show in my country, where on occasion of some anniversary or other, a Holocaust survivor was interviewed. Then, because elections were approaching, a some woman from a pro-life organization was interviewed as well and...

Please tell me this wasn't Germany... though with all of the right-wing conservatism and the rise of National Socialism (but not, donchaknow *nod**cough**nudge*) it really wouldn't be surprising :/

[Shirley MacLaine]

My impression is that some people, and fundies in particular, have llittle idea what the Holocaust was actually like.

Oh, but try to tell them that!

There's a discussion (you know, sort of) going on in the comments section of the latest Generation Cedar post right now. But don't worry, Kelly has STUDIED the Holocaust and knows all about it. So it's totally appropriate and fair of her to compare it to abortion (or whatever else!)

[lemon]

I was once told I was like Hitler by a fundie because I have an IUD.

She didn't want to listen to the fact that I'm infertile and have an IUD due to endometrial hyperplasia. Friggin' dumbasses.

[miffy]

There are lots of other ethnic cleansings going on right now or in the last ten years that they could use to draw a comparison(im not saying they should!). Maybe they don't learn about Sudan, Rwanda, Myanmar, Croatia, South Ossetia or the Iraqi civil war at the SODRT?

[miffy]

Where does that 55 million figure come from?

Here's what I could find in terms of legitimate numbers:

http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/d ... ortion.htm - that's under a million/year, and the population is growing so the numbers would likely have been lower in the past.

Also, 91.7% took place in the first trimester, and 69% of those took place at or before 8 weeks. Technically, we aren't even talking about fetuses with the majority of abortions - we are talking about embryos. If you want to argue that even an embryo is a potential human life, or that you believe that it possesses a soul - knock yourself out. Just stick to the facts, please.

I call that nothing more than a late period!

[Dinorah]

Please tell me this wasn't Germany... though with all of the right-wing conservatism and the rise of National Socialism (but not, donchaknow *nod**cough**nudge*) it really wouldn't be surprising :/

No it wasn't, but it's a Catholic majority country. And I don't think the juxtaposition was deliberate. Anyway, I was ages ago, I was in my teens, but still knew enough to be shocked.

[Green Glass]

Because there's just no way you can compare the elimination of a non-sentient embryo with what human beings who could actually feel pain, fear, anger, despair, humiliation, went through in the camps, whether they survived or not.

This. This exactly! You worded it so well. An aborted fetus doesn't have the consciousness to feel emotions or to know what is happening. It's so offensive that they make these comparisons. You know what's just like the Holocaust? The Holocaust. Nothing else. Certainly not abortion.

[wtylcf]

Well said, OP. I think as a general rule of thumb, acts of genocide are only appropriately compared to other acts of genocide. Hijacking the Holocaust to champion a political issue, like abortion or gun control, is never warranted, in my opinion. As we've seen recently in the gun control debate, this strategy leads people to make ridiculous claims like, "if the Jews had had guns, the Holocaust might never have happened," which ought to offend any person capable of rational thought.

[Violet]

Nice one, OP. It's really disgusting how fundies (I'm looking at you in particular Ray Comfort) try and compare abortion to the Holocaust or genocide. FYI fundies, here is how my Oxford English dictionary defines abortion: "the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy." "the natural expulsion of a fetus from the womb before it is able to survive independently" No mention of genocide, Jews, the Holocaust or Hitler. Oh it's definition of the Holocaust: "the mass murder of Jews under the German Nazi regime in World War II." No mention of abortion.

[FaustianSlip]

Seriously, thank you for this. I see red when I see crap trying to compare abortion to the Holocaust or fundies claiming that they're being treated like the Jews in Germany in the 1930s and '40s (or Obama to Hitler, but that's a different thread). Ugh.

In fact, most of the fundies we discuss here should probably just take a gander at this Tumblr to start out with and then maybe read a book or two.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Great post.

(Just one thing: eating meat? No, it is not "mundane". Is it comparable to the Holocaust? No. Do we brush it off and pretend that large-scale production of meat in the United States is not incredibly cruel to sentient beings? No.)

[2xx1xy1JD]

Great post.

(Just one thing: eating meat? No, it is not "mundane". Is it comparable to the Holocaust? No. Do we brush it off and pretend that large-scale production of meat in the United States is not incredibly cruel to sentient beings? No.)

Definition of mundane: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mundane

It's a synonym for "commonplace", and I think we can at least agree that eating meat is extremely common in the United States.

Here's the PETA campaign in question:

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/20 ... -campaign/

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Definition of mundane: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mundane

It's a synonym for "commonplace", and I think we can at least agree that eating meat is extremely common in the United States.

Here's the PETA campaign in question:

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/20 ... -campaign/

Gee thanks for the vocab lesson. That was not the definition your post implied, hence my reaction. I am familiar with the PETA campaign in question and I am not a fan. PETA is a very alienating and counterproductive org IMO.

However I am being an asshole for threadjacking this discussion so I am going to stop.

[crazyforkate]

Too bad none of the intended audience will get it. If fetus = human, all your arguments are immediately moot in their minds. Especially since woman =/= human.