Differences between ATI and Vision Forum?

[Nora509]

I've been following fundies for a loooong time but I'm still unclear on this. I know Vision Forum is Dougie and ATI is Gothard and all that, but what are the actual differences in theology, beliefs, etc? There don't seem to be many differences, but it seems most fundie families either lean more towards one or the other. Thoughts?

[GenerationCedarchip]

I can't speak as much to ATI because I don't know too many people in those circles, but VF has infiltrated my old fundie church to a huge degree.

The VF-ers have all kinds of pages on their site about what they stand for. Basically, it's traditional quiverfull patriarchy stuff. VF seems much more obsessed with history (revisionist history) than ATI and they're big on having families formulate "dominion plans" for how they and their descendants are going to take back the world for God. VF-ers tend to be of a reform theology bent whereas I don't think that's necessarily true in ATI.

Also, in VF, they tend to draw a more educated and relatively affluent crowd. They've recently started in with the "college is corrupt" garbage and "girls should be SAHDs" crap has been around for a little while, so I don't know how long the education edge will last. However, it's not unusual to find men in VF with professional degrees and other advanced degrees.

IN addition, VF doesn't have a rigid curriculum like ATI does. They advocate homeschooling but their materials are more supplements to be used with other materials. A lot of the VF types in my old church, once the fundies no longer had a stranglehold on the public school board, started homeschooling along classical education lines. The science ed. is abysmal (lots of Young Earth Creation stuff) but the ones I know are very into Veritas Press, Classical Conversations and other materials that provide kids with access to great books, lots of history (albeit revisionist in many cases) and education in Latin and other languages. I'm not sure ATI really does that.

Oh, and VF also offers all kinds of anaconda hunting opportunities for young men! :D

As I said, I'm not as familiar with ATI-land, so I'd be curious to hear from someone who is.

[Alecto]

At its core it really is a difference of who the check is cut to.

[Guest Anonymous]

Isn't ATI/Gothard anti adoption, but VF/Dougie is cool with it? There are some ideological differences but as Alecto said, it's mostly the same shit in different packages.

[Eclipse]

What does Reformed Theology mean?

[xDreamerx]

What does Reformed Theology mean?

I assume it means Calvinist, but maybe I'm wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin

If you scroll down to the theology part it outlines the beliefs.

[MamaJunebug]

At its core it really is a difference of who the check is cut to.

Hopeless optimist that I am, I want to dis-believe that until I find out that Doug's definition of "grace" is as messed-up as is Bill's.

I don't have the exact wording of the ATI version of grace, but it's something along the lines of, "When you have done everything perfectly, you have grace."

An ex-ATI'er posted it here, I'm almost certain. Hopefully s/he can provide the actual ATI mis-statement.

For the record, in mere Christianity, is "Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve" that has been won for us by the selfless life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our doings have nothing to do with it.

Should VF's definition of grace be accurate, there is still hope for VF. ATI, I fear, is too far gone to ever get back to rights...

[maybeizfundie]

I was thinking the adoption issue too. I think VF may be slightly more ethnically diverse (what with adoption and Voddie Baucham et al).

Also, VF doesn't have a paid membership, does it? Lots of things to buy, yes, but I haven't seen the kind of expensive exclusivity that seems to come with joining ATI.

[Rhetorica]

I don't have the exact wording of the ATI version of grace, but it's something along the lines of, "When you have done everything perfectly, you have grace."

An ex-ATI'er posted it here, I'm almost certain. Hopefully s/he can provide the actual ATI mis-statement..

I'm not ex-ATI, but I grew up attending IBLP's Basic and Advanced Seminars. As I recall, Gothard's definition of grace is "The desire and the ability to do God's will." So if you make a mistake in life, clearly you have not accepted God's grace (the desire and ability to do God's will).

There was a similar thread a few weeks ago. If I can find it, I'll post a link here.

[formergothardite]

I think when you get down to the core of it, VF and ATI are both the exact same. They both think that they have all the answers and they want your money. Dougie has his interns. Bill has students who work for him at training centers. Dougie goes on "manly romps". Bill travels the world via his training centers. Both of them think a great deal of themselves. One of the main differences I see is the VF wants girls to sit at home serving daddy and Bill wants parents to pay to send their kids to live at training centers and serve him. Also, VF is okay with alcohol and Gothard isn't.

[Nora509]

VF is okay with alcohol?!?! I had no idea! Also do Gothard and Dougie know each other? Do VF and ATI ever overlap in any way?

[formergothardite]

Am I getting it wrong with the drinking thing? For some reason I tought that some of the VF blogs show people drinking wine and stuff. I could be wrong though. I know that some people in ATI buy things from VF. I

[formergothardite]

Hopeless optimist that I am, I want to dis-believe that until I find out that Doug's definition of "grace" is as messed-up as is Bill's.

I don't have the exact wording of the ATI version of grace, but it's something along the lines of, "When you have done everything perfectly, you have grace."

An ex-ATI'er posted it here, I'm almost certain. Hopefully s/he can provide the actual ATI mis-statement.

For the record, in mere Christianity, is "Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve" that has been won for us by the selfless life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our doings have nothing to do with it.

Should VF's definition of grace be accurate, there is still hope for VF. ATI, I fear, is too far gone to ever get back to rights...

Is this what you are talking about MJB?

On his website, Dr. Gothard defines grace as “the desire and the power that God gives us to do His will.†On the surface, this definition seems to be okay. But what happens when you use that definition in the context of Ephesians 2:8? The meaning changes drastically: “For by the desire and the power that God gives us to do His will you have been saved through faith.†Suddenly, salvation becomes a matter of behavior rather than God’s free gift. This is one reason why so many of Dr. Gothard’s followers have abandoned Christianity. When our salvation is based upon something WE do rather than what GOD does, eventually a person will grow disillusioned, frustrated, and spiritually suicidal.

It comes from here:

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/07/ ... tter/#more

[GenerationCedarchip]

Am I getting it wrong with the drinking thing? For some reason I tought that some of the VF blogs show people drinking wine and stuff. I could be wrong though. I know that some people in ATI buy things from VF. I

I don't know the official line on it, but I do personally know VF-ers who drink a little every now and then. At least in that crowd, drunkenness is considered sinful, but drinking in moderation is okay. For example, it was not uncommon for wine to be served at wedding receptions at my old fundie church or at dinners in people's houses.

[MamaJunebug]

Is this what you are talking about MJB?

On his website, Dr. Gothard defines grace as “the desire and the power that God gives us to do His will.†On the surface, this definition seems to be okay. But what happens when you use that definition in the context of Ephesians 2:8? The meaning changes drastically: “For by the desire and the power that God gives us to do His will you have been saved through faith.†Suddenly, salvation becomes a matter of behavior rather than God’s free gift. This is one reason why so many of Dr. Gothard’s followers have abandoned Christianity. When our salvation is based upon something WE do rather than what GOD does, eventually a person will grow disillusioned, frustrated, and spiritually suicidal.

It comes from here:

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/07/ ... tter/#more

That's it exactly, formergothardite, thank you! The OP/blogger does an excellent job of contrasting gothard's "grace" with true Grace!

[formergothardite]

I don't know the official line on it, but I do personally know VF-ers who drink a little every now and then. At least in that crowd, drunkenness is considered sinful, but drinking in moderation is okay. For example, it was not uncommon for wine to be served at wedding receptions at my old fundie church or at dinners in people's houses.

Gothard followers usually say that Jesus turned the water into grape juice. :lol: Very anti wine or anything like that.

[xDreamerx]

Apparently Gothard does not understand sola fide? Through faith alone. Alone, meaning the one thing required. Funny, his way of a "desire and will to do God's will" and a salvation that can be taken away if one does not follow "God's" (Bill's) will to the letter, sounds an awful lot like the dreaded "works" to me, except Bill manages to turn his followers lives into giant "works".

[AlexIsAwake]

Since Vision Forum does have more of a Calvinist (also known as Reformed) theology, then yes, they are ok with drinking alcohol. I personally know VF'ers who enjoy getting drunk, which I've never understood. I can buy that the Bible says wine's purpose is to make the heart glad. But it also says "be not drunk with wine," so I never quite got why they wanted to ignore that part. Perhaps I am splitting hairs though! (sarcasm)

I used to work at Classical Conversations which is a company that provides homeschool curriculum to co-ops, so I know the VF'ers from my time there. I was starting to get pretty attracted to it at one point, but thankfully have moved on. FJ helped with that.

Overall, I feel that ATI is a lot more rigid than what I have seen from VF. Not to say that VF isn't rigid, they just don't openly admit to as much blatant legalism as we see in ATI. Some of the people I knew from VF were into the Federal Vision movement as well, which includes Doug Wilson and Jim Jordan among others. They are very into the dominion oriented and patriarchy stuff. Anyone here familiar with Federal Vision stuff? It's a newer movement, started back around 2005 I believe.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Since Vision Forum does have more of a Calvinist (also known as Reformed) theology, then yes, they are ok with drinking alcohol. I personally know VF'ers who enjoy getting drunk, which I've never understood. I can buy that the Bible says wine's purpose is to make the heart glad. But it also says "be not drunk with wine," so I never quite got why they wanted to ignore that part. Perhaps I am splitting hairs though! (sarcasm)

I used to work at Classical Conversations which is a company that provides homeschool curriculum to co-ops, so I know the VF'ers from my time there. I was starting to get pretty attracted to it at one point, but thankfully have moved on. FJ helped with that.

Overall, I feel that ATI is a lot more rigid than what I have seen from VF. Not to say that VF isn't rigid, they just don't openly admit to as much blatant legalism as we see in ATI. Some of the people I knew from VF were into the Federal Vision movement as well, which includes Doug Wilson and Jim Jordan among others. They are very into the dominion oriented and patriarchy stuff. Anyone here familiar with Federal Vision stuff? It's a newer movement, started back around 2005 I believe.

I'm not hugely familiar with Federal Vision, but I've heard it mentioned when back home on visits and going to church with my parents/extended family. Mostly I know that it's hugely controversial in Reformed Circles and I suspect it's something VF-ers would tend to split on, too. On the one hand, folks VF-ers tend to like such as Doug Wilson support it and they use some of the teachings of Rushdoony. However, several of the hardcore Reformed denominations (PCA, RPC and etc..) have denounced it in whole or in part.

Like I said, I'm not hugely familiar with it, but I thought the wikipedia article on it was mightly interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Vision

[AlexIsAwake]

Yes, Wikipedia does have a good explanation, though a little confusing in parts. But that's just it, Federal Vision IS confusing, I never could totally figure it out. I know one thing they are really big on is the CHURCH having all this authority over its members, and basically they think that if you arent underneath the authority of a church "covenant community," then you are in sin. They think that church elders have the right and responsibility to sort of eject from the covenant fellowship anyone who is deemed to be living in unrepentant sin, and not only that, but being put outside of a church community can cause you to lose your salvation if you continue in the sin. I'm not sure what awful sin you'd have to commit to get that....probably the sin of being gay or something, because everyone knows the gays are the worst sinners.

And yeah, the mainstream Reformed denominations definitely reject Federal Vision stuff. They rightly point out that it breeds legalism. About a month ago, James Jordan (Federal Vision leader) blogged about the "posture" of worship. And I am literally talking about physical posture. It was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read - saying even standing with all your weight on one foot or slumping your shoulders was disrespectful to God. Such hogwash. Here is a link to that little treat if anyone is interested. biblicalhorizons.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/some-notes-on-liturgical-etiquette/