Brexit? Thoughts?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

GBR citizens will vote on Brexit in June. What do you all think? 

Personally I am happy to see that British people have a say on this matter. In Italy none asked if we wanted in, if we wanted euro or any of the many international treaties between EU countries. And none would ever ask if we want out.

Anyway I have no idea of what the average Briton thinks about EU and I am curious. Personally I think that a united Europe is a potentially brilliant idea disgracefully realised in a dysfunctional way as is more evident by the day especially regarding the migrant / asylum seekers crisis management. Schengen is crumbling, Greece is abandoned and we haven't decided on a common line to help finding a solution for the Syrian conflict. And then there are all the other ordinary complaints re bureaucracy,  the idiocy of having multiple headquarters, the stupidity of involving countries blatantly not ready for it, the not found yet compromise between the sovereignty of the single states and the delegation of powers to centralised authorities,  the unelected central authorities and so on. 

Looking forward for your opinions. 

 

[TShirtsLongSkirts]

7 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Personally I think that a united Europe is a potentially brilliant idea disgracefully realised in a dysfunctional way

Wow - as a Brit you said exactly what I think but in a much more articulate way than I could

We are generally a very accepting and multicultural country, especially in London, where I live.  But it's very difficult to accept when people who we did not vote for are making decisions for us at the European Courts; and when laws are being passed, again by people we did not vote for.  It feels very undemocratic.  The refugee crisis has brought this to a head as it feels like decisions are being made for us e.g. open borders and refugee numbers.  There are many conflicting opinions and arguments.  A lot of people are resentful that, for example, our taxes went to help other EU countries (Greece) when it struggled financially.

There are obviously reasons to stay there too.  We're only a small country, so it's safer to be part of a larger group.  And trading and business is made far easier due to the EU.  But defence and business economy aren't issues that really interest or affect the regular Brit too much, whereas immigration and taxes do.  So it'll be interesting to see how it turns out.

Also, we get well and truly destroyed at the Eurovision Song Contest every single year, which is a reason in itself to leave

[Julifornia]

They should exit.  Glad they kept the Pound instead of the Euro.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

37 minutes ago, Julifornia said:

They should exit.  Glad they kept the Pound instead of the Euro.

Would you mind elaborating?  The opinion of not involved people who look at it from afar could be interesting. 

[Julifornia]

A unified Europe seems great in theory, but in practice it seems to be a bureaucratic mess, and perverse incentives seem to rule the day.  I'm not sure the Euro experiment has gone as well as hoped, either. 

I am a strong supporter of national sovereignty, though, and from the outside looking in this refugee crisis seems like it got real bad real quick because of the reluctance of nations to put their feet down and stop the onslaught from the beginning.  In some ways, while a group like the EU has some benefits, in other ways it seems like a suicide pact. 

Would losing Britain be good or bad for the rest of the EU, I wonder?

[samurai_sarah]

2 hours ago, Julifornia said:

A unified Europe seems great in theory, but in practice it seems to be a bureaucratic mess, and perverse incentives seem to rule the day.  I'm not sure the Euro experiment has gone as well as hoped, either. 

I am a strong supporter of national sovereignty, though, and from the outside looking in this refugee crisis seems like it got real bad real quick because of the reluctance of nations to put their feet down and stop the onslaught from the beginning.  In some ways, while a group like the EU has some benefits, in other ways it seems like a suicide pact. 

Would losing Britain be good or bad for the rest of the EU, I wonder?

Genuine question: How is it a suicide pact? Would you mind elaborating?

---

I think it's a good thing that the British public gets its say. The EU, as it is, is problematic, for reasons mentioned by previous posters. If it had remained what it initially set out to be, things would be looking rather different. I want to say that we Europeans would be happier that way, but then history indicates that we lot always find something to fight over, which is why I quite like the EU- but want to see it reformed.

That is not an opinion shared by everyone. I come from a particular historical and regional background, which makes me a strong supporter of the EU. My German region, alongside regions of France and Belgium are - historically- Western Europe's favourite battlefields. If things went "bang", the next thing that happened for us was that someone was fighting on our front lawns. Even today, children in school still get taught to never every stray from the paths in the forests, and do not pick up anything. It might be an unexploded handgrenade.

Basically, the memory of war is ever present, and my region was collectively happy when it became part of the first EU incarnation. Back then, it was to facilitate trade. A huge bonus for a historically deprived area. As the EU grew, things looked up for us lot. Not only economically, but personally as well.

Borders aren't very good at keeping people from "human-ing", so everyone on our German side had friends and family on the French side, and vice versa. "Schengen" was a major relief on a purely personal level. And the ease of travel made my hometown experience an economic boom that's been unprecendented. Why? The council built a tram to the nearest French city, making it simple and easy to go back and forth (travelling by car is a huge hassle, and the cost of parking is prohibitive).

So, the EU did good things for my area of the world. If you will, it kind of healed what wars and previous restrictions had torn apart. For us! I support the EU, coming from a background that is very specific and not universally shared. To *me* the EU is a good thing, but that doesn't mean that I don't understand others' concerns, or their desire to opt out.

I would like to see reforms, and more direct input. As it is, the way I see it, the EU administration is both too powerful and too weak at the same time. The trade-agreement roots are showing everywhere (seriously, standardised size of strawberries for export?), but the politics are a mess that would put any school playground to shame.

This is purely personal, as to why I support the EU. I understand others' reasoning, fair enough and all that. But pessimist that I am, I see the Brexit ringing the bell on what's been good for my region. No, I don't mean that we'll go back to bombing each other! I mean that it's like watching a dream dying. It's a sentimental, rather than rational. If the UK leaves, well, what happens next? If the very thing that afforded my region some prosperity, and the ability to see friends and family quickly, falls apart, it'll be just like the bad old days.

That is also why I think it's a good thing that the British public gets a say. This is our background, not theirs. Right now, we're in it together, but "together" doesn't work, if someone is in it against their will.

But there is one thing that no one has mentioned so far: Scotland.

If the Brexit happens, independence for Scotland might happen. It was a very close call last time around. There's a fair amount of calls for independence, if the Brexit happens. So, in the long run, Brexit might break up the UK:

Tl;dr: Everyone should have their say. I like the EU. This is going to be messy.

P.S.: Apologies for writing an essay.

[missegeno]

"But it's very difficult to accept when people who we did not vote for are making decisions for us at the European Courts; and when laws are being passed, again by people we did not vote for."

 

Funny. I'm pretty sure I remember hearing a similar sentiment from Americans in the 1770s.

 

*I say this in only the most lighthearted manner, as this quote just happens to touch on something I've been wondering lately. My brit friends have been explaining this sentiment to me as if the concept is new, so I mention that it's kind of the reason the US isn't England anymore. I was shocked that all of them claimed to have never heard of "taxation without representation" or even that what is now the eastern US had actually been a part of England. I know England is a ridiculously old country with plenty of its own history for kids to learn, but I guess I had kind of assumed that somewhere in that education, England would take credit for colonizing and settling America. Do they not, or are my friends just the worst students?

 

As for the actual topic at hand, I think it will be so interesting to see how this plays out. There are major pros and cons on both sides, and I'm trying to remain neutral and soak up all the opinions I can!

[Snarkangel Gabriel]

In terms of voting, most people in the UK weren't eligible to vote in the 1770s either so those in the American colonies had as much say as your average Brit at the time!  Plus we do get to vote for our MEPs

I think it goes further than a voting thing. A lot of people feel Brussels is very out of touch with the U.K.'s culture.

i have no idea which way I will vote!

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Bruxelles is out of touch with pretty much everything. 

A pet peeve of mine is the rule for we must call cheese even what's made from dried milk, in Italian culture it's akin to heresy. Or that we must an expired by date label on salt, because you know it's food 

[Kak]

I don't know how I'll vote either, but the UKIP anti-immigration slant is very distasteful to me. 

[Darwinesque]

I'm going to vote leave but suspect we'll remain in.

 

I love Europe, love the people, love the culture,love the countries to visit but I hate the EU as an organisation. We're all too different, I don't feel we can amalgamate properly. I think we're better as cousins than brothers and sisters.

I hate what the EU is doing to Greece and it's only going to get worse, I know that they should never have been allowed to join the EU but to let them flounder, in a tide of migrants, with the gates shut is horrific. I hate that Merkel felt she had the right to  effectively say "all welcome", without consulting with other countries or her own people, 413 people have died in 2016 alone crossing that sea, on her head be it. I do believe Cameron has done the right thing in only bringing in refugees from the camps in Lebanon and Jordan.

The UK is a strong country, but it is small.  Our net migration last year was 300,000 when our Prime Minister promised to reduced it to the tens of thousands. With Turkey wanting to join the EU, I believe also Bosnia, I just dont think the UK can cope. The benefits "emergency brake" means nothing when our national living wage is set to rise. I have no problem with immigration, as long as it is controlled. At the moment we have no say. 

 

[OnceUponATime]

At least you can now buy curved telegraph cucumbers now! I remember when that changed, and how a lot of shoppers here freaked out and spent way too much time trying to find the straight cucumbers because they must be better. (it was very amusing to me).

 

The EU has spent the last two years (2013-2014) trying to encourage citizen's initiatives and promote itself as something more touchy feeling close to the people. I think they have massively failed in that, because I don't know anyone apart from me who knew about it. And I only knew about it because I happened upon it researching something for school.

I don't know enough about the Brexit to really comment on it. While I'm officially a Brit I won't be allowed to vote. I am a bit concerned about what the UK leaving Europe will mean for visa's/living in EU countries. 

 

[mango_fandango]

It'll be a lot harder for us to go on holiday to Europe I reckon. People seem to forget that Britain is NOT part of Schengen. The Schengen Agreement means you don't need a passport to go from France to Germany, Germany to Spain, Spain to Portugal etc. 

I don't think we even know what Europe will say about various things if we go. The huge issue with Brexit is of course immigration, which everyone is obsessed with, barely giving thought to anything else, except perhaps the money aspect. They care so much about people immigrating here, but don't seem to give a thought to people emigrating. 

Also- and this is a huge part of things for me at least- I don't know what the heck will happen with Erasmus. Erasmus means that uni students can go and study abroad during their degree, or (if a languages student) can work, or teach English. Having checked the Erasmus website, it also means things for kids of non-uni age and sport and so on, not sure what. Sure, non-EU countries like Turkey and Switzerland take part, but not in everything. Britain is currently a "Programme Country" meaning we have access to all things Erasmus. If we leave the EU, it'll likely mean we lose that status and have to reapply, I don't know what exactly. "Participant Countries" can exchange with "Programme" ones if they sign special agreements etc. We may have our mobility periods reduced. As Year Abroads are a vital part of modern languages degrees, as well as very popular with non-linguists, losing Erasmus status will be a pain in the ass. 

I also have no idea what it'll mean for EU students studying here. They'd likely have to get visas, or else we'll have to negotiate so that students don't need visas. We've already had issues here regarding student visas not being renewed so foreign students have been fucked over i.e. had to leave, having more of those issues would be incredibly annoying. 

TL, DR: Politicians aren't really saying much beyond immigration and international businesses. "Brexit" would mean a whole lot more than that. Plus we have no idea what would happen if we did leave. Europe haven't said much (that I'm aware of). 

[Seahorse Wrangler]

On 2/24/2016 at 2:07 PM, Kak said:

I don't know how I'll vote either, but the UKIP anti-immigration slant is very distasteful to me. 

Some of my family think that people who have left the UK shouldn't be allowed back in...unless they are WASPs ...like my family!

[Gemini]

On 24 February 2016 at 7:07 PM, Kak said:

I don't know how I'll vote either, but the UKIP anti-immigration slant is very distasteful to me. 

UKIP are disgusting! I'm British and mixed race and would fear for my family if they ever came to power!

i have no idea how I'm voting yet. My Dad wants out as he feels it's a completely undemocratic system. I do a lot of traveling around Europe so for personal reasons being in the EU is good for me, however I guess that would be a selfish reason to vote to stay. I feel the main problem is that we have no idea what the consequences of  leaving would be! 

@missegeno. American history tends to be taught in college as part of A-levels rather than high school, and even then it's not all colleges. My eldest did a-level history and studied the Russian imperial family. 

I guess we just have so much history to fit in. 

[Seahorse Wrangler]

I'm almost tempted to get an ex-pat vote simply to vote to stay in.

 

My last British constituency was a safe seat for the party I didn't vote for so I never bothered to go for the ex-pat option.

[unsafetydancer]

I sort of wonder what might happen to all the UK nationals living in EU countries. Will they be asked to leave or will they have to apply for a visa if they want to stay? Also would this add fuel to the horrendous fire that is UKIP suddenly being taken almost semi seriously by some people?

I'll be voting to stay in. While I would like to see eome things change, and as someone mentioned above the situation with Greece was is awful, there are also a lot of things we benefit from by being in Europe that people don't even think about: for example I found out the other week that the high speed internet connection in my local library is provided and paid for by an EU scheme to make the web easier for people to access. The town I live in has also benefitted from money given by the EU for regeneration of the waterfront, which used to be a terrible place but is now looking like somewhere I might actually want to visit.

[Sweet Fellowship]

On 10/03/2016 at 0:47 AM, unsafetydancer said:

I sort of wonder what might happen to all the UK nationals living in EU countries. Will they be asked to leave or will they have to apply for a visa if they want to stay? Also would this add fuel to the horrendous fire that is UKIP suddenly being taken almost semi seriously by some people?

I'll be voting to stay in. While I would like to see eome things change, and as someone mentioned above the situation with Greece was is awful, there are also a lot of things we benefit from by being in Europe that people don't even think about: for example I found out the other week that the high speed internet connection in my local library is provided and paid for by an EU scheme to make the web easier for people to access. The town I live in has also benefitted from money given by the EU for regeneration of the waterfront, which used to be a terrible place but is now looking like somewhere I might actually want to visit.

I'm a Brit living abroad. I'm concerned what will happen, whether I'll be allowed to remain in Denmark.

As for voting, I'm unsure on what my stance is. I don't feel like I have enough information to make a decision yet.

[seraaa]

The EU is an imperfect institution, but on balance I don't think leaving at this juncture will be worth it.We're living in an increasingly globalized world, and I don't think leaving will yield the benefits that the Brexiters claim. Is the EU remote and isolated from the lives of everyday people? Did it behave terribly towards Greece? Yes.

Has it also changed the lives of many Europeans for the better, increased opportunities, strengthened human rights and labour laws? Also yes.

Additionally, much of the pro-Brexit rhetoric has been borderline if not outright xenophobic, as well as factually incorrect, which concerns me. If this is setting the tone for a post-EU UK, I'm not sure that is a country I'd like to live in. 

 

 

 

[Julifornia]

So how have recent events affected public perception re: Brexit?   I do feel like immigration is the #1 issue in the 2016 US election, even though there are people who are trying to make it be about far more trivial social issues.  I'm not a Briton, but the fecklessness of other EU countries with regards to the whole Brussels Terror Network would make me want to sever ties and stop unfettered movement of sketchy people, since apparently the authorities won't even investigate people who have been reported to them as possible terrorists.  Perhaps Britons are less circumspect?

[Darwinesque]

On 12/04/2016 at 9:37 AM, Julifornia said:

So how have recent events affected public perception re: Brexit?   I do feel like immigration is the #1 issue in the 2016 US election, even though there are people who are trying to make it be about far more trivial social issues.  I'm not a Briton, but the fecklessness of other EU countries with regards to the whole Brussels Terror Network would make me want to sever ties and stop unfettered movement of sketchy people, since apparently the authorities won't even investigate people who have been reported to them as possible terrorists.  Perhaps Britons are less circumspect?

I'm pro-Brexit but leaving the EU is not going to stop the UK from having it's fair share of sketchy people who wish us harm - they're here, they're staying and we won't be able to get rid whether we are in or out. Terrorism is not new to the UK, I grew up under the shadow of the IRA, now we have Daesh. I don't like it but I have to accept that it's a very real part of life. I also hope us leaving doesn't stop us from sharing our intelligence to help other countries, I believe our intelligence alongside the US is just about the best in the world. 

 

I think the vote is very close and it's up to the campaigners to sway the undeciders, they will decide the vote. I think whatever the result, there is going to be less than 2% in it. What I have noticed is that when the referendum conversation does arise, I am surprised by the people who do say they want to leave, those that in my head I was certain would want to stay, and I live in a very left wing area. It's almost like a dirty secret to admit that you want to leave.

[Bushes of Love]

I know there are a few UK peeps on here and I think we are cool and intelligent enough to discuss this without resorting to poo flinging. What are you planning to do on Thursday?

I'm voting to stay in the EU. The thought of being governed by the Tories alone is horrible (I'm a card carrying, Corbyn worshipping, Labour Party member. I'm also so left wing I practically fall off the spectrum!), I dread to think what they'd do to the NHS....They tried to privatise schools. UKIP are disgusting scare mongers (and Farage does have the most punchable face).

So personally, I know the EU isn't perfect but to me it's better than the alternative.

[mango_fandango]

I'm in. I'm abroad right now and my mum is my nominated proxy voter.

Not gonna lie though, I'm kind of shitting myself. I'm torn between ignoring coverage completely and checking in every so often. 

[Snarkangel Gabriel]

In my Feb 24 post I had no idea which way I would vote and I am still not sure.

I wish that Leave would not make such extreme and dogmatic declarations. 

And I wish that Remain would be more positive. Sometimes it sounds as though they are trying to persuade people to stay in a bad relationship because it has to be better than being alone.

Oh well - I can decide on the stroll to the polling station...

[Darwinesque]

I voted - to leave. 

I've found the whole thing disappointing and draining. I'm okay if we stay, it looks likely we will, though I hope it's by a small margin. For us, right now, staying in would benefit us, purely because of my husband's job, but I voted the other way because it felt morally right. If the result in the morning is to stay in I will breathe a sigh of relief that it's over and move on. My children are lucky, they have dual nationality with a non-EU country that has plenty to offer them. I feel Europe will slide downhill further if we stay in. If it does, we'll plan for our future in my husband's home country.

 

We made our decision based on what we felt was right for future generations. The fact that the EU is unwilling to reform is frightening to me. It's crumbling. I don't see how southern Europe is going to come out of the problems they face. I don't see how the migrant crisis will be solved. I don't see how my children will be able to afford a house in the city they grew up in. I worry that my children won't be able to get an entry level job in the careers they want to pursue. I'm okay with the result either way but I feel leave gives the UK the opportunity to breathe, step back and make some clever decisions for the people who live in the UK right now, both UK citizens and non UK citizens.