Lena Dunham vs Josh Duggar

[roddma]

I couldnt pick Lena Durham form a mug shot line up but defenders keep comparing Josh to her.All I got was she fooled with her younger sister when she was 7.

[elsabee]

The Guardian's got a good article about it:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/n ... use-claims

For what it's worth, I'm with Roxane Gay on this one (as I usually am, I find.) Not a great choice, but not the same as Josh either.

[VapingindaCity]

She was 7,.. and weird, still is weird. ..she didnt touch her sister to get off, she called her mom and asked why there was peebles in the grls lady parts. .. I know a lot if kids play Doctor, but they outgrow that quickly after they get older . I dunno to me the story is just weird & odd .

Josh was 14, and it was repeated behavior

I dunno the two are different, most 7 yr olds are just truly curious. Most 14 yrs old know right from wrong. Im sure josh knew what he was doing was wrong . Didnt he say he was tempted by one of the unrelated girls tight blouse?

I think they are using Lena, cuz the Democrats and the Left wing agenda just want to watch the Duggars suffer and yada yada .

Meanwhile sexual predators come in every race, religion and etc. But biy there sure is a lot in Fundie land... did u guys hear about the youth oastor thatw as molesting girls and was saying it isnt molestation if some dodnt stick in in. Friggin gross...

[Captain Obvious]

There's a world of difference between what Josh did and what Lena did.

See this "traffic light" guide to appropriate sexual behaviours by age.

fpq.com.au/pdf/Br_SexualBehaviours.pdf

Lena's behaviour was totally appropriate for a 7-year-old, since it appears to have been an isolated incident and was motivated only by curiosity.

Whereas Josh's behaviour - touching his sisters while they were asleep, repeated sexual behaviour with children much younger than him, lifting clothes etc - merits a "red light" for a child aged between 5 and 9, let alone one aged 13.

[DuggaredOut]

I'll readily admit I'm no fan of Lena Dunham, so maybe I'm biased, but I do think her behavior with her little sister, Grace, was inappropriate. I wouldn't put it in the same category of severity as Josh's behavior, but I don't think it was just innocent exploration. Yes, kids at that age do look at each other's private parts out of curiosity, but Dunham also admitted to bribing Grace to kiss her on the lips repeatedly and, as she termed it, "relax on me" while they watched TV. (She doesn't really explain why she wanted Grace to lie on her.) She also revealed that she used to masturbate while Grace was sleeping next to her in bed, and while it doesn't sound like she was fantasizing about her sister or anything, it still sounds to me like a really questionable time and place to be exploring herself sexually. Trying to explain her actions with her little sister, Dunham describes a rather troubling dynamic in which she "wanted...to feel that [Grace] needed me, that she was helpless without her big sister leading her through the world." And then she details some of the things she did to try to make Grace more emotionally dependent on her. Again, I'm not saying what Dunham did is the same as what Josh Duggar did, but it doesn't sound particularly healthy, either.

[roddma]

Oops sorry for misspelled name. I think the issue is conservatives dont want to admit it happens in their circles, too. They can't stand when they are cornered.

[drivingmishcrazy]

I remember reading about this and while what Lena did was disturbing and troubling, I'm not sure that it's an altogether fair comparison. I do wonder what was going through her 7 year old mind at the time, though.

[VapingindaCity]

Ya I agree, her behavior was troubling. But I dont think she tried to hid it, makes u think she didn't know right /wrong. But it does makes u think what 7 yr old does crap like that...

I dont understand the comparison, are we going to compare all sex offenders? Or people accused of such offenses? I dont think lena us a hero by any means. I do think she has a lot of guts to put her "fat ass on TV naked" (other peeps words not mines)

[lascuba]

I'm super biased against Lena Dunham, so take that into account...

What she did didn't stop at age 7. She continued with all sorts of creepy behavior, including insisting on sleeping in the same bed as her younger sister up until she was a teen and masturbating next to her while she was sleeping. She would bribe her to get her to kiss her on the lips. And there were a few other things I can't recall off the top of my head. Even as adult, Lena's has shown to have zero respect for boundaries when it comes to her sister. She outed her to their mother when she specifically told Lena not to-they didn't speak for years after that. Lena herself has said that she doesn't see her sister as a separate person so she feels entitled to her sister's experiences. If it happened to her, it happened to Lena and Lena has the right to share that with the world.

Now, considering how Lena's whole schtick is "shocking" people with her "quirky" inappropriateness--for crying out loud, she compared herself to a sexual predator for laughs, so why the fuck is she all outraged that people reacted?--actually wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of the more extreme things she talks about are completely made up. The finding pebbles in her toddler's sister vagina...I highly doubt that happened. Someone that age doesn't have the dexterity to take off her diaper, stuff several pebbles way up into her vagina, put her diaper back on and walk around comfortable for who knows how long. Lena likely made that up or greatly exaggerated for laughs--tee hee, aren't I an adorable weirdo?--but she got a much bigger reaction than she bargained for and I was thrilled that she felt harassed so much that she cancelled her book tour and got off twitter for a while.

Is all that as bad as what Josh did? I have no idea. But I think they're equally shitty personalities, however one will rate their actions.

[Toothfairy]

I think the difference is the Josh works for the frc and comes from a family that think modesty prevents sexual thoughts and things like this. What both did was wrong but thumpers are just using this because Libraals hate christians

[sockinshoe]

I thought Lena's behaviour was something she should have known not to do, but I wouldn't consider it child abuse. Children are curious about bodies and the touching was non-sexual, since Lena noticed her sister acting oddly (having just put pebbles inside her labia) and went to investigate. I don't think it's uncommon for older siblings to crave affection from younger siblings and to almost feel that they are owed their younger siblings attention. The bribery for kisses doesn't sound like something unusual to me, it takes some kids a while to recognize boundaries and the autonomy of others. The masturbation seems odd to me. I don't know why the girls shared a bed regularly enough for that to be an issue. We should also keep in mind that Lena came forward with this on her own accord, apologized for some inappropriate humour/comparisons, and is an agent provocateur for a living. It's unclear how much of her account is factual.

[eh02]

I think the things Lena Dunham did were definitely wrong. At a really young age (wasn't she <10 years old?) however I can say that it is slightly different than a sexually mature person groping someone who is asleep. Of course, Lena's sister could not consent to being touched - she was a child. But on whatever horrible spectrum of horrible behavior exists, I'd say groping someone who is unconscious, younger than you, and clearly NOT AT ALL OK and IN NO WAY ATTEMPTING TO GIVE CONSENT is a bit different from what Lena did. Some siblings do some weird shit together, and it is definitely true that sometimes it can traumatize one without the other even knowing. I cannot relate to it myself but it obviously does occur. Someone in their "sexually open family" should have stepped in and realized that something was wrong. There's a big difference between being open about sex and letting children engage in activities that they are not old enough to consent to.

I did find it really infuriating the way Lena handled the criticism she (rightly) got. I think it would have been one thing if she'd said, "when I was young, I did x, y, and z, and looking back on it I really see how inappropriate it was and how it hurt my sister." But instead she basically just said, "LOL ALL THESE PEOPLE SAYING I MOLESTED MY SISTER LOL NO WE'RE JUST SEXUALLY PROGRESSIVE AND YOU'RE THE ONE WHO IS BACKWARDS." Yuck. And the fact that she thought that it was OK to speak on her sister's behalf and had the authority to tell everyone what her sister's experience was.

I am not a fan of her. But I can't say I'm worried she's a child molester today. Can't say I feel super confident saying that about Josh.

[rsg007]

I thought Lena's behaviour was something she should have known not to do, but I wouldn't consider it child abuse. Children are curious about bodies and the touching was non-sexual, since Lena noticed her sister acting oddly (having just put pebbles inside her labia) and went to investigate. I don't think it's uncommon for older siblings to crave affection from younger siblings and to almost feel that they are owed their younger siblings attention. The bribery for kisses doesn't sound like something unusual to me, it takes some kids a while to recognize boundaries and the autonomy of others. The masturbation seems odd to me. I don't know why the girls shared a bed regularly enough for that to be an issue. We should also keep in mind that Lena came forward with this on her own accord, apologized for some inappropriate humour/comparisons, and is an agent provocateur for a living. It's unclear how much of her account is factual.

In the book Lena explains that her sister Grace was scared to sleep alone and so ended up sleeping in Lena's bed every night and so if Lena wanted to masturbate she had to do so with Grace in the bed. If I remember correctly, she always waited until Grace was asleep to masturbate. Should Lena have masturbated with Grace in the bed with her? Probably not, but it sounds like she didn't have a choice and was doing so DESPITE the fact that Grace was there, not because she was there.

[lascuba]

Lena's behavior continued well into her late teens--the masturbation with her sister asleep next to her, for one thing. And I believe it was Lena who was afraid to sleep alone, not Grace. Lena talked about how she insisted on sleeping with her parents until a pretty advanced age until Grace was old enough to be acceptable to her. Grace didn't want to, indeed didn't really want much to do with Lena when she was a kid, which was where the pushiness and bribery for physical affection came from.

That said, I don't worry that Lena is a child molester now. I think she had/currently has severe boundary issues specific to her sister, and is just an all around asshole, but she's not an abuser.

[eh02]

Lena's behavior continued well into her late teens--the masturbation with her sister asleep next to her, for one thing. And I believe it was Lena who was afraid to sleep alone, not Grace. Lena talked about how she insisted on sleeping with her parents until a pretty advanced age until Grace was old enough to be acceptable to her. Grace didn't want to, indeed didn't really want much to do with Lena when she was a kid, which was where the pushiness and bribery for physical affection came from.

That said, I don't worry that Lena is a child molester now. I think she had/currently has severe boundary issues specific to her sister, and is just an all around asshole, but she's not an abuser.

I think Lena Dunham and Josh have one common denominator: narcissism. They're both their own biggest fan, and both seem to have absolutely no grasp of how their actions affect others.

Josh molests his sisters and in his OFFICIAL STATEMENT says he stopped because it would have ruined "HIS" life.

Lena feels entitled to share how she potentially traumatized her sister to make a quick buck in her book. And when she's confronted about it, seems completely oblivious to the fact that she did something wrong by touching her sister in the first place, and did something wrong AGAIN by casually recounting a victim's abuse story without their consent or input and choosing to say it's "not abuse." YOU are not the one who gets to say whether it was abuse when YOU are the abuser.

[rsg007]

Lena's behavior continued well into her late teens--the masturbation with her sister asleep next to her, for one thing. And I believe it was Lena who was afraid to sleep alone, not Grace. Lena talked about how she insisted on sleeping with her parents until a pretty advanced age until Grace was old enough to be acceptable to her. Grace didn't want to, indeed didn't really want much to do with Lena when she was a kid, which was where the pushiness and bribery for physical affection came from.

That said, I don't worry that Lena is a child molester now. I think she had/currently has severe boundary issues specific to her sister, and is just an all around asshole, but she's not an abuser.

No, it was definitely Grace who was scared to sleep alone: A direct quote from the book:

"I shared a bed with my sister, Grace, until I was seventeen years old. She was afraid to sleep alone and would begin asking me around 5:00 P.M. every day whether she could sleep with me."

[hockeymoo]

I've noticed that a few bloggers acting as Josh Duggar apologists keep making this comparison - Lena vs. Josh, Lena vs. Josh! Why are they treated differently, why isn't Lena's show off the air, too? Blah blah blah, Christians are being persecuted!

As a Christian, I would answer them this:

They're treated differently because Lena's show is fiction and separate from whatever questionable things she's done in her real life, whereas Josh's show documents his real life, and he is a sexual predator who preyed on his sisters and "co-stars" and no one wants to watch a show about that shit; Because Lena is a self-depricating, dramatic and hyperbolic storyteller for a living (whether one likes her style or not), and Josh is a power-hungry lobbyist who actually tries to oppress people based on his beliefs and has now revealed himself to be an abusive hypocrite, and no one wants to watch a show about that shit; and finally because Lena didn't commit a felony and try to cover it up, whereas Josh and his family did, and no one wants to watch a show about that shit.

It's not like comparing the two makes either of their actions any less gross, anyways.

[lascuba]

No, it was definitely Grace who was scared to sleep alone: A direct quote from the book:

"I shared a bed with my sister, Grace, until I was seventeen years old. She was afraid to sleep alone and would begin asking me around 5:00 P.M. every day whether she could sleep with me."

Ah, ok, I was thinking of this and mixed the two things up:

"Dunham stopped sleeping with her parents at 12, at which point Grace, who is six years younger, began crawling into bed with Dunham, an arrangement that lasted until she left for college (and resumed whenever she returned home). "

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/magaz ... unham.html

[rsg007]

Ah, ok, I was thinking of this and mixed the two things up:

"Dunham stopped sleeping with her parents at 12, at which point Grace, who is six years younger, began crawling into bed with Dunham, an arrangement that lasted until she left for college (and resumed whenever she returned home). "

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/magaz ... unham.html

Yeah, that does make it sound like Lena was the one who didn't want to sleep alone.

[Nic]

First, I'm in the camp that Lena didn't molest her sister.

With that said, I think it's pathetic but a bit funny that Josh's defenders are using comparisons to make his molesting little girls not so bad. I've read people stating that they did questionable things too as teens such as drinking, sex (one pointed out that she became a teen mom), drug taking, shoplifting, the list goes on. Or in Lena's case, to a 7-year old.

NONE of these even come close.

And seriously, can anyone reading this name a time in their life that they compared themselves to a child molester?? Seriously. Wouldn't that fall into the hey I may have done X, but I WASN'T molesting children. Why are they so quick to glom onto the hey we're all molesters in some ways.

Unlike some of the commenters defending Josh that I have read, I can tell you when I was a 15 year old making out with some random guy at a Psychedelic Furs concert after I got drunk off Barcardi a friend and I snuck into Irvine Meadows Amphitheatre is not in the same realm as what Josh did. We are not peers in behavior. I can't think of anything that I've done that would be in ballpark let alone city of a child molester activity. And you know what, even if I could, it wouldn't make Josh's behavior better-- it would mean that both Josh and I would be POS's.

But they'll try anything to distract from that this guy touched the breasts and vaginas of his little sisters. They were his prey. And I'm not sure how bringing up lame comparisons or any comparisons is supposed to mitigate that he stalked and repeatedly molested little girls. This isn't a hey we all did silly things like drink or have under age consensual sex... so eh he touched a few little girls against their will. We all do dumb things. Nope. What's the strategy here, the more people they can pinpoint as molesters the less heinous his actions are?

But funny that though they seem to love the comparisons, they aren't bringing up Gothard.

[HarleyQuinn]

Someone someone fix the topic of this thread? It's driving me insane. It's Dunham, not Durham.

[roddma]

Mistakes dont happen twice. Someone n DWOP said the unrelated victim came onto him and she was in rehab trying to' get 'cured' for similar behavior. .

Anyhow, by the item I caught the name error I could no longer edit.

[VapingindaCity]

When I said she was 7 I was speaking about that specific incident, that they were playing in the driveway and found pebbles in the baby lady parts. She called her mom and asked her why there are pebbles in there..

I think lena was a hyper sexual child, not sure why. But for me it seems that she is codependent. . I DUNNO if lena has had theraphy. It it odd to me that she was such a hyper sexual child, then when she was a young adult she waited so long to have sex... i think Lena included those stories cuz she wanted to be seen as quirky, but to me bitch is just nuts. Im not sure why such a young child would display such disturbing behavior, but I hope nothing bad happened... maybe she is truly a person that don't know boundaries and that is her way of exploration ?

Shes ur sister not ur Twin. Hell even Twins will see themselves as separate people.. I think she took 1st born child jealousy to the Nth Degree. But yeah those things are defy worrysome, wonder if her parents had a serious discussion with her? I mean what she did was not ok.. I dont necessary see it as abuse, I think she needs to explain things better, in her book she never explained why she did those things, it was more like HEY! LOOK HOW WEIRD I AM!! But those things are defy borderline and type Disturbing

But I still dont see why r they comparing the two. Bill Cosby show got pulled even tho statue of limitations had come and gone.. HBO dont have advertisement, so they dont really have to listen to public outcry, right ?

Comparing molesters is a dumb thing to do. Hollywood is a weird world, roman Polanski is still a big time Director so Mia Farrow ex husband.

R . KELLY, we have video evidence of him and a 15yr old.

$ mayweather pled guilty to beating his GF . And the list goes on and on

Is masturbation while in the same bed with someone who is sleeping sexual assalt? Or only if its a kid .. cuz I used to know a few guys that did that while their GF / wife was sleeping . Not sure if they did that cuz they had blue balls or maybe they were i to that sort of thing

[VapingindaCity]

I dunno why Fundies are saying this is an anti Christian thing? Cant someone be a Christian and do right by an abused child?

And by doing right I mean going to authorities and getting proper counseling. .

Yes, he was a huge hypocrite working for the RFC, but he had jesus so he was cured and stuff. Cuz jesus is all u need

I dont remember Lena being a huge Champion for kids.. I remember her Doing PSA for Obama and to get young people out to Vote. And I remember her doing stuff that had to do with woman's rights, thats about it.

[FundieFarmer]

I think both are disgusting and inappropriate. Curiosity is one thing, these kinds of behaviors are something else, regardless of what the pdf says, especially when repeated.

I just think Josh's transgressions were far more egregious simply because he was older.

And no, I don't think his upbringing excuses him or "bred" him into it.