AZ Repubs Try To Keep Atheists From Graduating High School

[Ridiculous]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... gh-school/

 

Kids would have to repeat this oath to graduate:

 

I, _______, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge these duties; So help me God.

 

No exceptions, no modifications. Atheist students would either have to not graduate or lie in their "oath".

[E Street Fan]

That article is from January. I haven't heard anything more about it since then.

I think what offends me the most is certain politicians drafting and attempting to pass legislation that they KNOW IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL and a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME. It's like the FBI's repeated and wasteful attempts to find Jimmy Hoffa's remains--don't they have anything better to do?

[keen23]

I think this quickly became a non-issue. It hasn't been mentioned since January.

Legal question- can one take an oath if one is under 18? Many people graduate high school while still under-age.

[MrsYoungie]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/01/25/arizona-republicans-propose-bill-that-would-not-allow-atheists-to-graduate-high-school/

Kids would have to repeat this oath to graduate:

I, _______, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge these duties; So help me God.

No exceptions, no modifications. Atheist students would either have to not graduate or lie in their "oath". :roll:

How do you force someone (by threat of no graduation) to take an obligation "freely"?

[AnywhereButHere]

Well, I guess I can add Arizona to the list of states I wouldn't want to live in. We have a beautiful country, and so many places have so much to offer. It's a shame that they are ruined by the idiocy of the assholes who currently inhabit them.

I would question the legality of forcing underage kids to take any sort of oath, but state governments have been just piling on the crazy train lately, so when I see something like this, it scares me more than it usually would.

[louisa05]

Is it the Jehovah's witnesses that do not take oaths? I know some religious group does not. If this were to be passed, they would quickly see it struck down via a lawsuit.

[rward]

Is it the Jehovah's witnesses that do not take oaths? I know some religious group does not. If this were to be passed, they would quickly see it struck down via a lawsuit.

Yeah, it wouldn't be the atheists who ended this, it would be the JWs.

Freedom of religion, it works for everyone.

[Lillybee]

Yeah, it wouldn't be the atheists who ended this, it would be the JWs.

Freedom of religion, it works for everyone.

Quakers also do not take oaths.

[RachelB]

Is it the Jehovah's witnesses that do not take oaths? I know some religious group does not. If this were to be passed, they would quickly see it struck down via a lawsuit.

Franklin Pierce, who was Episcopalian, objected to the "I do solemnly swear" wording and used "I do solemnly affirm" instead, because of Matthew 5:34-37 (which he saw as prohibiting him from swearing oaths).

So glad to see the AZ Republicans who introduced this measure are holier than the bible.

[debrand]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/01/25/arizona-republicans-propose-bill-that-would-not-allow-atheists-to-graduate-high-school/

Kids would have to repeat this oath to graduate:

I, _______, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge these duties; So help me God.

No exceptions, no modifications. Atheist students would either have to not graduate or lie in their "oath". :roll:

Even if you took out any reference to god, this would still be offensive. A student who takes the required courses and does well enough in their grades shouldn't have to swear an oath to the country. Their loyalty to their country doesn't have anything to do with their grades. THey did the work, give them the freaking diploma.

[OkToBeTakei]

Even if you took out any reference to god, this would still be offensive. A student who takes the required courses and does well enough in their grades shouldn't have to swear an oath to the country. Their loyalty to their country doesn't have anything to do with their grades. THey did the work, give them the freaking diploma.

Why on earth is this possible? Do the poor kids really take such a ridiculous oath on finishing school? :shock:

I believe the US is the same as the UK in that there is no requirement to say an oath even in court. Affirmation but no oath. Why won't they just be done with it and stop pretending religion plays no part in education. I come from a country that has no separation and we don't have half the hassle.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

Well there is no hassle at this point because no law has been passed-- it was just somebody's wild-assed scheme possibly to get their name in the papers. You have to ask yourself, "Who comes up with this shit and what do they hope to prove?" I imagine some of this comes out of thinking up ways to prove you are a super-duper, holier-than-thou Republican and some of it comes out of conservative think tanks.

Still, you have to wonder if they passed this bill what would be stopping them from more bills requiring an oath of allegiance every time you registered to vote, every time you got a driver's license, and every time you took out a marriage license. It would make just as much sense.

[lizziesmom]

Not only would I knot want to live there I have no desire to set foot in the state.

[snarktastic]

Also what happens if the kid isn't a US national?

[RachelB]

Also, the "to support and defend" language reminds me-- the university I'm affiliated with has a loyalty oath that I think dates back to Reagan's term as governor of California. A prof with pacifist principles was fired because before signing, he amended the oath he was signing to read "to support and defend by peaceful means."

I imagine that signing this statement might compromise a student's ability to later claim conscientious objector status.

[sparkles]

I'm personally getting seriously fed up with assholes who keep proposing measures that are clearly unconstitutional and nothing more than a waste of time, resources, and TAXPAYER'S money just to prove how holier than thou they are.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Also what happens if the kid isn't a US national?

EXACTLY what I came in here to ask! The same issue exists for forcing kids to recite the Pledge, too (even if you take the God part out).

Far too many people seem to think that you're either a citizen or some illegally resident person who needs to be deported, no middle ground. Hello, there's hordes of legal expats from all over and they send their kids to school!!

[Genk]

As an agnostic I would have no issue saying that because it holds no meaning to me. I could break the 'oath' immediately and can't see any repercussions.

Same way I can "swear to god@ about something and really I don't have any repercussions if I break my promise because I am swearing to something I don't think exists. (I don't do this but I could).

However, I don't think that is the point...

[shedemei]

Whether or not it someone believes in the Christian god is irrelevant.

I strongly believe atheism need religious status under the law to bolster the case against things like this. It's ludicrous, but necessary. There's plenty of legal precedent and cases in which courts ruled that it is.

[debrand]

As an agnostic I would have no issue saying that because it holds no meaning to me. I could break the 'oath' immediately and can't see any repercussions.

Same way I can "swear to god@ about something and really I don't have any repercussions if I break my promise because I am swearing to something I don't think exists. (I don't do this but I could).

However, I don't think that is the point...

I'm an atheist but I try really hard to keep my word. Granted, I can't say that I've never been dishonest but I try really hard to be truthful. Making an oath that I didn't intend to keep would bug me and I don't want my kids to learn to be dishonest either. It isn't that I think anything will happen if I break my word but it just goes against my own version of right and wrong.

[HereticHick]

Surely I'm not the only US Federal Employee here? Like it or not, that oath is the federal oath that ALL US federal employees, including Members of Congress, take, except for the President (his Oath is slightly different).

Most federal employees don't remember it, because they just signed the form--see the OPM version here: http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdfimage/sf61.pdf instead of raising their hand and repeating it.

But trust me, if you work, or ever worked, for the US government (regardless of your citizenship), you took that oath! Don't believe me? Go to your personnel office and ask to see your signed oath of office!! : ) [often called Standard Form 61]

On the form, note the Note at the bottom of the page about opting out of of the "So Help Me God" or "swear" parts--if you object to either of those phrases, they just cross them off the form (or don't say them). No big deal. I think I omitted the "So Help me God" part last time I signed the form.

[i'm not saying that y'all don't have reason to be upset about this--just wanted to you to know that hundreds of new U.S. federal employees take this oath every day, and if they want to omit the religious parts, it isn't a problem]

[anniebgood]

I taught school in several districts in my area, and had to sign the old loyalty oath in each of them. I think they came about during the McCarthy years.

When I worked for the Feds I had to affirm or swear that I would protect the USA from all enemies foreign and domestic, yada yada yada. Of course the Feds were the people who made a big deal out of stating that if you have not got a middle name you must put the initials NMN meaning no middle name on all your paperwork. They were talking to a room full of adults at the time.

AZ seems to be on the crazy train these days.

[PennySycamore]

When I was first at the University of Georgia in the fall of 1973, there was an anthropology doctoral student who protested having to sign the loyalty oath. This was back during the Watergate scandal and having to sign the oath was a big deal. Made me rather proud to be in the same department. The guy's name escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure to remember it about 2 AM!

I remember going to a ceilidh at his place in the country. Man, he brewed some great mead!!

[Childless]

Surely I'm not the only US Federal Employee here? Like it or not, that oath is the federal oath that ALL US federal employees, including Members of Congress, take, except for the President (his Oath is slightly different).

Most federal employees don't remember it, because they just signed the form--see the OPM version here: http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdfimage/sf61.pdf instead of raising their hand and repeating it.

But trust me, if you work, or ever worked, for the US government (regardless of your citizenship), you took that oath! Don't believe me? Go to your personnel office and ask to see your signed oath of office!! : ) [often called Standard Form 61]

On the form, note the Note at the bottom of the page about opting out of of the "So Help Me God" or "swear" parts--if you object to either of those phrases, they just cross them off the form (or don't say them). No big deal. I think I omitted the "So Help me God" part last time I signed the form.

[i'm not saying that y'all don't have reason to be upset about this--just wanted to you to know that hundreds of new U.S. federal employees take this oath every day, and if they want to omit the religious parts, it isn't a problem]

Yes, but you are an adult who decided to accept that job offer of your own free will. Children are minors who have very few rights under the law. They cannot choose their school. They should not be made to take an oath when they have no other alternative. They can't just pack up and go to a private school unless their guardians are willing to pay for it. An adult can simply choose to turn down the job in favor of a private sector job that carries no such loyalty statement with religious overtones. These legislators are holding children's futures as ransom in a misguided effort to force allegiance to their ideals. It's not only wrong. It's unconstitutional.

[GiGi_41]

Quakers also do not take oaths.

I do not take oaths, though in court I affirm I'm telling the true. The idea being that I as a Quaker tell the truth because I'm a Quaker. I also refer to the Judge as judge so and so and not your honor.

When I became a town supervisor I used affirm in my oath of office and dropped God.

And our school has an Oath the parents must sign and I refuse based on religion, I will uphold the ideas they are trying to get across ie no giving alcohol to minors, and other outside school stuff, but I'm not going to sign an oath about it. The middle school principle who doesn't like me wasn't happy about it!

I did notice that all the adoption paperwork I sighed said affirm as opposed to swear, so I think there are a lot of changes we just aren't aware of.