Fundies and their children - I want to puke!

[ophelia]

Since this is a post that is about 4 years old it might have been discussed in 08 on the old board, but I just stumbled across it on

the keepers-at-home-blog (Christie Weathers, wife to Isaac Weathers and BFFs to our dear Peter Bradrick family -.-)

It's about a message on child training by Voddie Baucham.. its disgusting!

I found this message on Child Training by Voddie Baucham here, and it is excellent! He deals with the lies we have bought as Christians. First, he deals with college and the marriage issue. At 9:40, he addresses the family planning lie that the church has embraced. Then, at 12:30 he dives into the lies we have bought about child training. This is the bulk of his message, and it is dynamic! It's a must listen for every parent! I think it's clear to pretty much everyone out there that Christians as a whole have turned their backs on the idea of child training. Voddie breaks things down into 3 phases:

1. Discipline and Training Phase: Give me your attention

2. Catechism Phase: Give me your mind

3. Discipleship Phase: Give me your hand.

This message is so dynamic that I could seriously copy down everything he said... but here are a few parts that I really appreciated:

"People who are abusive to their children... first of all, it's sin. But secondly? A lot of times, those are people who don't spank their children enough. What do you mean? Here's what I mean. Junior does fifteen things by lunchtime for which he should have been spanked. And you push it down, and you push it down, and you push it down, and finally when you can take no more you unleash your wrath and your anger, and then you're in sin."

"I'm not talking about flying off the handle, absolutely not. It should be a remorseful time... it is. One of our children is right at the tail end of this phase... one of our children is a 3 year old, and we're right at the tail end of this phase. He gets spanked regularly. And so we bring Elijah in, you know, and I talk to Elijah about what just happened, explain to him where scriptually it was a violation and why it's sin, and how sin grieves the heart of God and why Jesus had to die for sin, and why as his father I've been commanded to spank him for what he just did because God desires that he not be that kind of boy... ...And so I spank Elijah. Firmly. And he weeps, and that's all he gets to do. If he goes beyond that and screams and yells and throws a fit, then I spank him because that's rebellion. And if I don't, then I teach him that he can embarrass me and make me not spank him."

"We finish, and we hug and we kiss and we pray, and then we rejoice when we go out. I'm not sitting him in his room so that he can soak in his sin and build up anger and animosity toward me, no. I'm bringing justice, I'm bringing it swiftly, I'm bringing it scripturally, and then it's over. I am not mad at him, I am not withholding affection from him, I am not building barriers and walls in my relationship with him, no! We deal with it, we deal with it swiftly, we get it over with, and then we go out rejoicing together! And his conscience is delivered."

"we never have a session where we train them to do what we expect them to do. Let me give you an example, the prime example: The so called "shy kid" who doesn't shake hands at church, okay? Usually what happens is you come up, you know, and here I am and I'm the guest and I walk up and I'm saying hi to somebody and they say to their kid, "hey, say good morning to Dr. Baucham." And the kid hides and runs behind the leg, and here's what's supposed to happen: This is what we've agreen on silently in our culture. What's supposed to happen is, I'm supposed to look at their child and say, "hey, that's okay." But I can't do that. Because if I do that, then what has happened is: Number one, the child has just sinned by not doing what they were told to do, it's direct disobedience. Secondly, the parent is in sin for not correcting it, and Thirdly I'm in sin because I just told a child that it was okay for them to disobey and dishonor their parent, in direct violation of scripture. I can't do that, I won't do that. I'm going to stand there until you make them do what you said."

I love the example he follows with showing how to train your children for those situations BEFORE they get to them, so that they will know what you expect.

If you have children, will have children, have grandchildren... I highly recommend listening to this! Voddie presents a wonderfully biblical message on child training that our culture, especially our Christian culture, is in dire need of.

BTW: Our dear KenDull is a big fan of Voddie and some of you might remember her spanking post about a year ago.. seems like she

listened to that message too.

edited to add source: keepers-at-home.blogspot.com/2008/04/child-training.html

[2xx1xy1JD]

I agree with your disgust.

As a parent, I would find it completely creepy to have another adult telling me that I HAVE to discipline my child, and even more creepy if they were insisting that my obviously uncomfortable child HAD to have contact with them. My child, my decision.

I've never seen a developmentally normal teen react to a stranger's greeting by hiding behind a parent. Small children do it, and then grow out of the shy phase on their own.

I'm very concerned, though, about what happens to children who are told that they will be punished if they do not have contact with an adult, even if they are uncomfortable. Will the child who is spanked for not smiling and shaking hands with adult A be willing to shout NO when adult B touches them inappropriately?

I also had to wonder the way it describes 3 yr old discipline. Who points out scripture to a child that young? 3 yr old discipline isn't that hard.

[dairyfreelife]

Your bolded-contradiction (on their part that is). I don't abuse and then beating. If he screams of yells, spank him again? I know kids have fits over punishment of any kind, but could screaming or yelling be because of the pain from the firm spank? Crazy people completely. Every time the kid is punished his father lectures him with scripture bs? When parents would go into lectures, I tended to tune them out, especially the same one. My dad was really bad about that-lecturing. I pretended to be listening, but I wasn't. This kid will eventually do the same thing.

[Doomed Harlottt]

The so called "shy kid" who doesn't shake hands at church, okay?

Sooo, does Voddie thinks little kids who act like this aren't really shy? That they are just being disobedient out of defiance?

[slickcat79]

"we never have a session where we train them to do what we expect them to do. Let me give you an example, the prime example: The so called "shy kid" who doesn't shake hands at church, okay? Usually what happens is you come up, you know, and here I am and I'm the guest and I walk up and I'm saying hi to somebody and they say to their kid, "hey, say good morning to Dr. Baucham." And the kid hides and runs behind the leg, and here's what's supposed to happen: This is what we've agreen on silently in our culture. What's supposed to happen is, I'm supposed to look at their child and say, "hey, that's okay." But I can't do that. Because if I do that, then what has happened is: Number one, the child has just sinned by not doing what they were told to do, it's direct disobedience. Secondly, the parent is in sin for not correcting it, and Thirdly I'm in sin because I just told a child that it was okay for them to disobey and dishonor their parent, in direct violation of scripture. I can't do that, I won't do that. I'm going to stand there until you make them do what you said."

Seriously? They deserve a beating for being shy? I never would have made it to school-age in a fundie family :(

I also had to wonder the way it describes 3 yr old discipline. Who points out scripture to a child that young? 3 yr old discipline isn't that hard.

Yeah...it's worrying that they describe the 3-year-old as being on the "tail end" of the disciplinary phase. How long have they been spanking the poor kid?

[llv]

Give me your attention, give me your mind, give me your hand.

Indoctrination at its finest.

[JuJuBee]

If I were a kid, I'd run and hide from this guy, too.

I love how all these people are anti-abortion, and then they raise their kids as miserably as possible.

[BoomerLynn]

As a former extremely shy child, all I can say is Fuck Off Voddie Baucham.

[emmyfair]

As a former extremely shy child, all I can say is Fuck Off Voddie Baucham.

Ditto. What a total heartless ass...

[sea_gale]

Ugh. I treat my cats better than these people treat their children. For one, I don't beat the shit out of my cats.

[emmiedahl]

Shy toddlers are so sweet. My 4 yo is shy, although she is getting better because of preschool.

Of course, I have a weak spot for outspoken children also. So obviously Baucham and I have different beliefs about raising people.

[Koala]

Voddie Bauchman can go straight to hell.

My son is 8 and extremely shy. He gets it from me. I don't function well at all in groups, and in such settings I can go hours without uttering a word.

My daughter is the total opposite, but she's got a will of steel (which we love).

I can't fathom how either of my babies would function if they lived in one of these households. It literally turns my stomach.

"Give me your mind" indeed. Bastards.

[hoipolloi]

Not sure who's worse - Voddie Baucham or the brain-dead fuckwits like Christie Weathers, who do everything he tells them to do.

Since they believe in hell, let's hope they all end up there, in the special corner reserved for those who abuse & torture children in the name of religion.

[pittsburghmummy]

My DD is not shy at all she is very vocal and I love her for it just as I would love her for being shy. Its who she is. I would never spank her for being who she is.

[Koala]

Not sure who's worse - Voddie Baucham or the brain-dead fuckwits like Christie Weathers, who do everything he tells them to do.

Since they believe in hell, let's hope they all end up there, in the special corner reserved for those who abuse & torture children in the name of religion.

They are all evil, and if there were a hell I am certain that every last one of them would bust it wide open.

[2xx1xy1JD]

It just sounds like some of them are so invested in the idea of children being born with a "sinful" nature and needing physical punishment that they are determined to see normal childhood behavior as sin.

Being shy and hiding is not sinful.

Wanting a parent to stay with you while you go to sleep is not sinful.

Disliking broccoli is not sinful.

Needing to go to the toilet is not sinful.

Wetting the bed is not sinful.

Crying when someone hurts you is not sinful.

Being hungry, especially if you are a breastfed baby, is not sinful.

In terms of methods of toddler discipline, does it occur to these people that "training up" a child may mean something other than physical punishment?

My study of Proverbs shows that the word for "train" (chanoch) is different from the word for "teach" (lamed). It's a different process. The Hebrew words used also don't say "train up a child is THE way", but "train up a child in HIS way", meaning the child's way. My interpretation is that learning takes place in different ways. Teaching is learning on an intellectual level, and it's appropriate for older kids and adults. Learning also takes places, though, on a subconscious level. We learn from following the example of people around us. We learn through practical experience. Young children, in particular, have brains that learn through constant repetition. So, when we say that the child should be trained in HIS way, and that this will ensure that he will follow the path for life, it makes sense that this would be a reference to always setting a positive example, having consistent rules and routines and using constant repetition, since this is how things get hardwired into the brains of small children.

Perhaps, if they promise to keep their hands to themselves and mouths closed, these guys can take a field trip to a religious nursery school like the ones that my kids attended. Here are some things that they would see, that I would consider to be part of "training":

- staff is calm and patient

- children encouraged to use "indoor voices"

- daily song about giving charity, followed by having kids pass around a donation can and each drop in a penny

- singing songs about other religious rules (keeping kosher, Sabbath, etc.)

- acting out religious rituals

- cleaning up when the "tidy up" song is sung

- having parents write a "good deed" note for their child every day, and then reading out the notes and placing them on a "good deed tree"

Honestly, I've seen for myself how little kids - without getting lectured about scripture or told that they are sinning or being spanked - can be trained by these positive methods to not watch TV on Saturday, to avoid certain foods, to give charity and to do all sorts of things, happily, that most adults wouldn't expect kids to want to do.

[fundifugee]

I agree with your disgust.

As a parent, I would find it completely creepy to have another adult telling me that I HAVE to discipline my child, and even more creepy if they were insisting that my obviously uncomfortable child HAD to have contact with them. My child, my decision.

I've never seen a developmentally normal teen react to a stranger's greeting by hiding behind a parent. Small children do it, and then grow out of the shy phase on their own.

I'm very concerned, though, about what happens to children who are told that they will be punished if they do not have contact with an adult, even if they are uncomfortable. Will the child who is spanked for not smiling and shaking hands with adult A be willing to shout NO when adult B touches them inappropriately?....

This. I join all of you who were shy as kids (and introverts all our lives).

I also think that we should trust our kids' sense of people. Kind of like dogs, I suspect often they are right when they are reluctant to engage with someone. I remember three adults who gave me the creeps when I was little. I was reluctant to engage with them; of course my parents insisted that I shake hands and return hugs and answer their questions and chit chat (all at church of course). One I am quite sure now (after being family acquaintances for 20 years) is a psychopath, the other later made passes at me when I was 15 and babysitting his kids, when he was driving me home so his wife wasn't around. (The third one moved away).

[Patsy]

he weeps, and that's all he gets to do. If he goes beyond that and screams and yells and throws a fit, then I spank him because that's rebellion... I am not building barriers and walls in my relationship with him

This is what I consider to be most abusive about the discipline advocated by many dominionists. I get to do what I want to do to you. You don't even get to have an opinion on it. First-time obedience comes second, and for similar reasons. Grind, grind, grind the soul out of that child.

[ophelia]

I don't have any children yet, but I swear I could never ever treat a child like this. Neither could my boyfriend. And we both are Christians and want that religion and the bible take a place in our childrens life from early ages on, but this is NOT CHRISTIAN at all.

Somebody on a previous post said that all this braindead idiots should got to hell and thats fucking right! Unfortunately they are all breeding like rabbits and indoctrinate their kids with the same bullshit.

Every fundie-raised kid that really manages to escape must have a really strong mind!!! I cannot say how much I admire the strength of people who accomplish to leave.

[koolmom]

Every time I read posts/topics like this, I keep wondering which one of these poor fundie kids will wind up a serial killer? This is the foundation that makes for this kind of behavior if I've ever seen any. I can see some poor boob, sobbing his eyes out yelling Bible quotes when he...never mind, I'm sure anyone can get the gist here. Why are these parents so brain-dead when we live in such a supposed enlightened society? This is way beyond "discipline", it's outright abuse...

[finleeport]

As a one time shy kid with mild Asperger syndrome, all I have to say is;

Fuck you to Hell Voddie, damn your Nobodaddy God, damn your preachings, and damn you all the way to 9th Circle of the Inferno, the Circle of Traitors; for have committed the greatest sin of all, betrayal to the Gentle God whom you dare call your master. May you be frozen and chewed along with Judas and Brutus.

[finleeport]

This is the actual teaching the Puritans believed in; that all children are inherently sinful, thus justifying 'spare the rod and spoil the child' excuse.

[Guest Anonymous]

Ugh. I treat my cats better than these people treat their children. For one, I don't beat the shit out of my cats.

[Future Teacher]

How can ANYONE condone hurting children? It makes my heart break. :( Just because a child has a different personality from what you want IT DOES MEANT IT'S SINFUL! :angry-jumpinganger:

I went a little overboard there but anyone who hurts children..... :evil:

[thoughtful]

Vicious fuckers.

Of course, they make the same assumptions and exaggerations as the Pearls;

- any time a child doesn't jump to do what you say, they are being willfully disobedient.

- there are no other parenting choices except whipping frequently and letting things go until the parent is in a violent rage.

- the most important thing is for the parent to win some imaginary battle.

They get themselves so wrapped up in this crap that they can't even see the real, live, interesting children with whom they are living.