why I prefer the Gilbreths to our fundies

[urban teacher]

I'm listening to Cheaper by the Dozen having read it long ago and realized that when fundies come here and say "You hate large families" , I will be using this list I started.

1. None of the older kids had to parent the younger ones.

2. The girls were expected to go to school.

3. The mom worked as a motion expert.

4. They had family meetings where they voted.

5. While I have problems with a lot of the efficienty systems, the parents liked spending time with their kids.

6. The Dad used corporal punishment clearly throughout which I really don't like but there is no prayer closets, staking tomatoes or whipping with spoons.

Those of you who have read the book, come up with why you prefer their large family.

[Trynn]

I think some if the older ones did haveto do a bit of parenting after the father died, but otherwise I agree.

1. The family kept up with the tomes as much As they could. The oldest girl cut her hair without her dads permission, and after their father died the girls started wearing more "defrauding" bathing suits

2. Hey weren't pressured not to use birth control, they just CHOSE not to.

And I'm pretty sure I recall readinghat t least one offhand children did not live to adulthood... Which os accurate to he time period, rather hab having it romanticized like the fundies do.

[Bookworm]

I read the book at a relative's house the other day and I really, really liked the family. They sounded like a very fun family to be around. Also, the parents were quite definitely cooperative rather than patriarchal.

I looked them up on Wikipedia and it turns out their motion study work had a great deal more influence than I expected - such as nurses handing doctors tools during operations!

[keen23]

The whole idea of knowing that #12 was the last "newest model" must have meant that the Gilbreths had taken steps to make sure that #13 wouldn't happen. I suspect a hysterectomy.

The Gilbreths- both men and women- went to real colleges and got real degrees. Lillian (the Mom) got an actual Ph.D from Brown!

[ladypuglover]

I think some if the older ones did haveto do a bit of parenting after the father died, but otherwise I agree.

1. The family kept up with the tomes as much As they could. The oldest girl cut her hair without her dads permission, and after their father died the girls started wearing more "defrauding" bathing suits

2. Hey weren't pressured not to use birth control, they just CHOSE not to.

And I'm pretty sure I recall readinghat t least one offhand children did not live to adulthood... Which os accurate to he time period, rather hab having it romanticized like the fundies do.

It was Mary who didn't survive early childhood. She died from diphtheria, in 1912.

http://gilbrethnetwork.tripod.com/dozen.html

[pomology]

That even when Frank Sr. was kind of a douchebag about his daughters modesty (hair and clothes), they rebelled against him and actually won out.

That Frank Sr. was utterly snarky about religion

That education and loving learning was clearly the most important family value.

[thoughtful]

I agree with all that has been said.

I think the things that stand out, for me, are the love of education, and that Mom and the girls were valued for their minds, and encouraged in learning and working.

[Alcyone]

The whole idea of knowing that #12 was the last "newest model" must have meant that the Gilbreths had taken steps to make sure that #13 wouldn't happen.

I assumed it was because Lillian was 44 when the youngest was born. (Frank was 54.) It would be interesting to find out.

[HOTW]

I think one of th emost hilarious part of th ebook was the visit from the PP lady! The way the parents double teamed her was hilarious! Frank Sr reminds me a lot of my Dad he used commitees to decide things and tended to overrule us UNLESS we could outsmart him at his own game then he had to admit defeat!

[Conuly]

The mother had her own career. It was tied into her husband's, but she was respected enough at it that she was invited to give her own lectures on the subject, and she was able to keep it running after he died. Companies sent people overseas - back in the 20s, when this wasn't just an easy thing! - to learn from her.

[emmiedahl]

I don't hold the hair/clothing thing against the dad too much. Cutting hair was somewhat of a social statement back then, like getting a piercing or a colorful dye job now. Ditto with the swimsuits; imagine if your teenager came home with a string bikini? A lot of dads would have a problem, and the girls would probably win. The girls wanted to wear the more fashionable and risque styles of their times, which is always difficult for parents.

I like this book. In comparison to modern Quiverfull families, the parents agreed on a certain number of children that was within their means. They had just that number and provided well for them according to the standards of their times. I am impressed by the fact that they let the kids vote because I would never do that. I know I am outnumbered by children and I only give choices where I am happy with either outcome.

[Hisey]

I'm a bit of an expert about the Gilbreths. I've even gone to the Smith library to study the papers the mom left behind.

Some points about them:

1. The second oldest daughter, Mary, did die of diptheria at around age 5. Basically, the child suffocated to death. Frank, Sr. tried to save her by performing an emergency tracheotomy, which failed. I thought it was sad, but interesting, that Lillian Gilbreth's wallet (at her death) contained a picture of Mary (and only Mary). I saw the picture--held it in my hand--she was a cute child. The parents were so devastated by her death that they never spoke of her again.

2. The oldest girls did a lot of the childcare, before and after the dad's death. BUT, the mom also believed in delegating out lots of the work. There was a handyman/cook, they sent out their laundry, there were nannies, the mother-in-law lived with them and helped.

3. Lillian herself did not break her back over the kids. In fact, the Gilbreth kids could easily accuse both parents of neglect. Frank Sr. was often out of the country for months, working. Shortly after he died, the mother left--alone--on a cruise to give some speeches for him. She did not hurry back home upon returning to the US. She left the kids alone in Nantucket, basically that whole summer.

4. A lot of the book is not quite true. The kids loved their parents, and made them out to be better than they were. As one Gilbreth child said, "The book is the way things should've been."

5. There was lots of favoritism for the boys.

6. Despite this, the kids all grew up quite well and happy. All were well-educated. All seemed to have loved their parents. A few of the younger ones seemed a bit angry in their youth, but got over it after a while. They all turned out well----healthy, employed, college educated, functioning marriages, etc.

7. The Gilbreth parents were thought to believe in eugenics (promoting of a superior white race). That's thought to be the reason they had so many kids.

8. After Jane, the youngest, Lillian did have some female problems -- I forget the exact nature. However, there are other reasons there is no 13th Gilbreth. Firstly, the parents had always planned on 12 kids. Secondly, Frank Sr. died when Jane was 2.

9. Lillian seemed like an intellectual, who was not really into little kids. Thankfully, they were wealthy enough to have lots of servants, etc. She sounds like she was a good mother, just not the cookies-and-milk-after-school type.

[HOTW]

I think everyone glosses over their childhood, at least the older generation. When Frank Sr died the eldest Anne was 19 or 20 and they had all been raised from a young age to be independent so I can see why Lillian made the choice to go to Europe and give those speeches. If she hadn't I doubt she would have been accepted in the field as well as she was- it was an uphill battle for her as it was the 20's when he died and there was a lot of attitude towards women in a man's field. She was able to prove that she was not just a little helpper to her husband but a full partner in the field of motion study and in doing so was able to provide for her children rather than rely on family charity. I think she was th etype of woman who followed her husand but when he wasnt there she buckled up the belt and took on a pretty unenviable task. I know my Mum raised 5 of us smart alecks and now with my Dad gone she has no desire to ever live with any of us(just like the Gilbreths debated what to do with Lillian in the second book Belles on their Toes?) and even has to fight against 2 of my brothers trying to treat her as an old helpless woman!

A lot of points made are very vbalid for the time period they grew up in but at the same time the fact that all 12 got a college education and the fact that Lillian was a Psychologist in her own right was very unusual, no one would have thought twice if only th eboys got the education. It is very easy to oversimplify the whole situation but nothing is as easy as one thinks, I was brought up in a family of 5 and we had to pull our own weight a LOT! I cannot imagine what it woulod be like in a household with 12 so I can understnd why somethigns went on.Frankly I think I have gone too easy on my 3 at times and when I think back to my childhod I find some of it wasnt fair but I turned out alright anyhow.My kids are a lot lazier than I ever was/am and tend to ignore things I cannot leave to lay there so it isn't bad to teach kids a good work ethic thru hard work AFAISI>.

[Conuly]

2. The oldest girls did a lot of the childcare, before and after the dad's death. BUT, the mom also believed in delegating out lots of the work. There was a handyman/cook, they sent out their laundry, there were nannies, the mother-in-law lived with them and helped.

I believe that back then everybody sent out the laundry. Only very POOR people did their own laundry! Of course, it was backbreaking work, even with "modern" washing machines.

[demgirl]

I'm a bit of an expert about the Gilbreths. I've even gone to the Smith library to study the papers the mom left behind.

Some points about them:

2. The oldest girls did a lot of the childcare, before and after the dad's death. BUT, the mom also believed in delegating out lots of the work. There was a handyman/cook, they sent out their laundry, there were nannies, the mother-in-law lived with them and helped.

3. Lillian herself did not break her back over the kids. In fact, the Gilbreth kids could easily accuse both parents of neglect. Frank Sr. was often out of the country for months, working. Shortly after he died, the mother left--alone--on a cruise to give some speeches for him. She did not hurry back home upon returning to the US. She left the kids alone in Nantucket, basically that whole summer.

4. A lot of the book is not quite true. The kids loved their parents, and made them out to be better than they were. As one Gilbreth child said, "The book is the way things should've been."

5. There was lots of favoritism for the boys.

7. The Gilbreth parents were thought to believe in eugenics (promoting of a superior white race). That's thought to be the reason they had so many kids.

:shock: Holy disillusionment, Batman.

I loved this book so much. Now I'm very sad. It's like finding out there is no Santa Claus. :cry:

[darareaksmey]

I am a huge Myrna Loy fan, and she was absolutely beautiful as Lillian in the movie.

For close to 50 years, Frank Jr. wrote a column for the Charleston (SC) News and Courier, later the Post and Courier. His nom de plume was Lord Ashley Cooper, the name of one of the British lords proprietor in this area when it was first settled by the Brits; and the column was called "Doin' the Charleston." He always had something pithy and/or hilarious to say; I really looked forward to the days it ran. One thing that always made me howl was his ongoing collection of words and phrases that only Charlestonians could understand.

Now his son, Dr. Edward Gilbreth, writes a weekly column for the P&C. He's not the wordsmith his father was. I gues that's why he's a doctor.

[PennySycamore]

Frank junior not only co-wrote Cheaper by the Dozen and Belles on Your Toes with his older sister Ernestine, he was a columnist for the Charleston, SC Post and Courier for almost 50 years. Frank wrote his columns under the nom de plume of Ashley Cooper. He wrote at least one column in the Post and Courier in support of abortion rights. (I see that darareaksmey just said pretty much the same thing!)

Lillian did research on sanitary napkins for Johnson and Johnson in the 20s. http://www.mum.org/gilbret1.htm

[NurseNell]

I think some if the older ones did haveto do a bit of parenting after the father died, but otherwise I agree.

1. The family kept up with the tomes as much As they could. The oldest girl cut her hair without her dads permission, and after their father died the girls started wearing more "defrauding" bathing suits

2. Hey weren't pressured not to use birth control, they just CHOSE not to.

And I'm pretty sure I recall readinghat t least one offhand children did not live to adulthood... Which os accurate to he time period, rather hab having it romanticized like the fundies do.

My father knew this family. They were quite wealthy. One of the children, a girl I think, died in the same dipheria outbreak that my Dad's siblings did.

[tabitha2]

Actually,there was a 13th child,a girl. Lillian lost her from a fall down the stairs.

[FloraDoraDolly]

:shock: Holy disillusionment, Batman.

I loved this book so much. Now I'm very sad. It's like finding out there is no Santa Claus. :cry:

I think most educated people at that time believed in eugenics at least to some degree, just as today most people believe in global warming. Keep in mind, back then there were prominent scientists and experts publishing scholarly books and papers in favor of eugenics. Seeing as how the Gilbreths were a science-and-research minded family, it's pretty easy to imagine them reading this stuff and believing it, even though people today would recoil from it.

[QAF_Rocks]

I think most educated people at that time believed in eugenics at least to some degree, just as today most people believe in global warming. Keep in mind, back then there were prominent scientists and experts publishing scholarly books and papers in favor of eugenics. Seeing as how the Gilbreths were a science-and-research minded family, it's pretty easy to imagine them reading this stuff and believing it, even though people today would recoil from it.

Yes, and it was long before WWII, so they couldn't possibly know what Hitler would end up doing. Modern people's minds immediately jump to Nazi atrocities, but back then things weren't quite so sinister. Of course, there were forced sterilizations going on in America at the time, although I'm not sure how many supporters of eugenics agreed with them.

[tabitha2]

Margaret Sanger did for sure. To her BC was essential for stopping the 'unfit' and 'feeble' from breeding.

[Austin]

While decent people nowadays find the idea of eugenics horrific, it is important to remember the time and place people and their beliefs in their proper context. I have heard over and over again about Margaret Sanger from anti-choice people, but she would have been odd had she not had that view.

[PennySycamore]

While decent people nowadays find the idea of eugenics horrific, it is important to remember the time and place people and their beliefs in their proper context. I have heard over and over again about Margaret Sanger from anti-choice people, but she would have been odd had she not had that view.

Thank you for saying this, Austin.

[emmiedahl]

At the time, there were no welfare programs. Having more poor or "feeble" children meant horrible deaths from disease and starvation. I'll just be a hard-ass and say that there were good reasons at the time to discourage child-bearing among the poor. No one wants to see the poor babies starving. I know some people had classist and racist reasons for believing in eugenics, but there was an element of compassion for many.

Now, with food stamps and welfare and public education, a poor child at least has a fighting chance. And they almost certainly will not die of their poverty before reaching adulthood. We can all give a thank you to socialist programs for that.