Why a teen who talks back may have a bright future

[celestial]

This Article from NPR reports on new research that suggests that teens who are allowed to argue with their parents (in a productive/persuasive way) are better equipped to become assertive adults. It also found that those who were not permitted to "talk back" to their parents at all or question them on decisions developed more passive personalities, going with the flow even when it meant doing something they knew was wrong. This makes me think of fundie kids-- never having been allowed to voice their own opinions, it would seem likely that many of these kids would be all but incapable of making their own decisions as adults and would go along with whatever they are told to do. Which I suppose is exactly what fundie leaders want.

Thoughts?

[fundiefan]

I haven't read your link, but the concept is actually well known and well proven. Arguing, in a respectable manner, develops a lot of skills. Thinking on your feet, being able to explain and/or defend yourself without resorting to personal attacks or tantrums or whining or manipulation; learning to put your thoughts and feelings into words, how to get along with people, how to know 'when to quit'. It is fabulous for developing negotiating skills and learning to compromise.

I think kids who aren't allowed to argue, for whatever reason, are done a great disservice. Of course, there is absolutely a difference between disagreements & arguments and being a smart ass or stubborn brat.

[emmiedahl]

My parents allowed us to argue with them within reasonable limits (such as, about politics or whatever) and it was treated like a debate. They usually would verbally kick our asses, but my mother started getting annoyed when we reached an age at which we could win an argument.

I let my kids argue with me although I will put my foot down when it gets circular or they become rude. They are entitled to their opinions, as long as they express them respectfully and reasonably. For some reason this is a controversial thing; I have had friends tell me that they would never do this. I am going to start citing this research.

[browngrl]

My parents had no time for talking back but if you could present a reasoned, researched debate well that was another story. If your argument was good enough - my parents were known to change their minds and go along with what you wanted. It really forced my sisters and me to think carefully about what we were going to say and to back up our comments with references or facts. Today: two of us are doctors and the other is a lawyer. I credit my parents with teaching me how to reason and how to communicate effectively.

So this story makes sense to me.

edited for a riffle

[snarkbillie]

My kids are not allowed to argue with me. They are however, allowed to ask "why?" and if they can come up with alternatives. For example if my daughter asked me if she could watch a movie on the living room television right now I would say "no" and she would say "why not?" and I would say "my show is about to come on and the DVR is broken so I can't record it" and she might offer up watching her movie after or watching it in my room on that DVD player or asking if she could borrow my laptop to watch it or maybe even she would come up with another solution and we would discuss it. She is not allowed to do this:

"mom can I watch a movie?"

"not right now"

"MOM THAT'S NOT FAIR, I HATE YOU, YOU'RE RUINING MY LIFE!!!!! *WHINGE*"

That's what I think about when I hear "arguing".

Our rule is "Be a solution finder."

If you don't like the situation, figure out a new one.

[clibbyjo]

My daughter will be empress of the world.... :whistle:

[emmiedahl]

My daughter will be empress of the world.... :whistle:

She'll have to out-argue and possibly fight my daughter for it.

[CanadianHippie]

My kids are not allowed to argue with me. They are however, allowed to ask "why?" and if they can come up with alternatives. For example if my daughter asked me if she could watch a movie on the living room television right now I would say "no" and she would say "why not?" and I would say "my show is about to come on and the DVR is broken so I can't record it" and she might offer up watching her movie after or watching it in my room on that DVD player or asking if she could borrow my laptop to watch it or maybe even she would come up with another solution and we would discuss it. She is not allowed to do this:

"mom can I watch a movie?"

"not right now"

"MOM THAT'S NOT FAIR, I HATE YOU, YOU'RE RUINING MY LIFE!!!!! *WHINGE*"

That's what I think about when I hear "arguing".

Our rule is "Be a solution finder."

If you don't like the situation, figure out a new one.

That's not arguing though. As indicated by the *WHINGE* at the end. Arguing would be "I understand, but I have to watch the movie for a class assignment on product placement and I need the larger screen to identify what products appear in the movie."

[celestial]

My kids are not allowed to argue with me. They are however, allowed to ask "why?" and if they can come up with alternatives.

Negotiating/persuading is what this article is defining as "arguing." It states that teens should be rewarded for articulating their thoughts, but not for whining/name-calling, etc. Just thought I'd clarify. I agree that the terms "arguing" and "talking back" typically have negative connotations.

[Ava]

My parents' method of arguing/debating with me was to say "No, no, nooooooo, YOU'RE WRONG" in a continually louder voice until they drowned me out and I stopped talking, occasionally followed by a Bible quote/Rush Limbaugh quote/bigoted statement to explain what was wrong with whatever I half said. I used to lie awake in bed on Saturday nights and try to think up new logical, reasoned arguments that I hadn't yet used as to why I should not be forced to go to church the next day just to be shouted down and told I was going to hell if I didn't go to church and I was going to church if my parents had to bodily drag me into the car because they SAID SO.

Reasons were "because I said so", eg: "Can go outside and play on the swings?" "No." "Why?" "Because I said so." Occasionally it was "because it's my house and my rules and you have to do what I say and don't you dare ask me about it again" if I pressed the issue. And I wasn't saying "why" just to be obnoxious, I legitimately wanted to know what objection you had to my going outside so that I could either understand your reasoning or come up with a solution to that objection.

I don't know about assertiveness (social anxiety really doesn't help much with that) but I certainly learned that whatever opinions I had about anything important were likely to be pronounced wrong by my parents if I cared to share with them, which has led to me basically keeping my religious/political/philosophical/etc beliefs to myself for years and years and never bringing them up in conversation with my parents because I know I simply won't be listed to or taken seriously. I think my parents assume I hold the same beliefs as them (I don't, to put it mildly). I really hate when they bring up political/religious stuff in conversation and verbally pat each other on the back for being in agreement and glance at me occasionally like they expect me to join in, while I just stare at the wall and bite my tongue. I learned to go argue with people on the internet instead if I wanted an actual debate.

[clibbyjo]

She'll have to out-argue and possibly fight my daughter for it.

Yours plays the violin right? Mine plays piano, they can co-empress and make music while they are at it. :)

[snarkbillie]

Reasons were "because I said so", eg: "Can go outside and play on the swings?" "No." "Why?" "Because I said so." Occasionally it was "because it's my house and my rules and you have to do what I say and don't you dare ask me about it again" if I pressed the issue.

My mom was like that. I decided at about 5 that I would NEVER ever ever say "because I said so" to my kid. Only I did once in a fit of frustration and my three year old said "but WHY do you say so?" and I said "because I don't have a good reason and I'm tired".

[bananacat]

I think rebellion in general is a good and necessary step for teenagers to transition to adulthood. They need to make mistakes in a controlled way to learn from experience. They also need to separate themselves into individual people who are separate from their parents. When teens aren't allowed to rebel, it only delays everything and we end with people like Josh Duggar who is acting like a very typical 15 year-old. For his kids' sake, I really hope it is just a phase that he grows out of soon.

[snarkbillie]

I think rebellion in general is a good and necessary step for teenagers to transition to adulthood. They need to make mistakes in a controlled way to learn from experience. They also need to separate themselves into individual people who are separate from their parents. When teens aren't allowed to rebel, it only delays everything and we end with people like Josh Duggar who is acting like a very typical 15 year-old. For his kids' sake, I really hope it is just a phase that he grows out of soon.

I feel this way too. My mom flipped the fuck out when she accidentally found out my kid had gotten an F on her homework. She yelled at me a good long while. I tried to explain to her that the kid did NOT want to do it and so I didn't make her because I wanted her to see what happens when you don't turn in your work. That single 0 on a paper affected her grade for weeks. I felt like it was better for her to make this little mistake while she was young rather than when she's in college. She'll likely never slack off again without remembering how a single day fucked up her A and made it a D for longer than she was comfortable. I'm sure she will slack off, I just think she'll do it with a better understanding of the consequences next time.

[debrand]

My 15 year old daughter has a natural argumentative personality. Not only that, but she uses freaking logic, not emotion to win. She doesn't scream or yell, she presents her case and keeps finding new reasons to win her point. We've begged her to become a lawyer but she wants to be a pscyhologist.

When she was younger, I told her that she could disagree but she had to do so in a polite manner. A couple of my friends have expressed disapproval for my attitude toward my daughter. They are the parents who expect kids to always say, Sir and Ma'am and to respond with, "How high" when they are told to jump.

I wonder if expecting instant obedience is part of what continues poverty in some families. If you are never allowed to express disagreement in a healthy manner or learn to negotiate, it might be harder to work in anything but a job where you only obey rules and don't think for yourself.

[mnb357]

Belligerence, (Lord, did I spell that correctly?) whining, and disrespect were always nipped in the bud, and rather unpleasantly, when I was a teen. "That's too early! Fine, then, your'e staying home." A calm, mature, and respectful approach was ALWAYS rewarded, if not always with what I was seeking at the time. Eventually, I made the connection. As a secretary at the age of 22, I could hold my own in staff meetings with senior V.P.'s (men mostly) in their 50's. Needless to say I wasn't a secretary for long. I thank my parents.

[Austin]

My 15 year old daughter has a natural argumentative personality. Not only that, but she uses freaking logic, not emotion to win. She doesn't scream or yell, she presents her case and keeps finding new reasons to win her point. We've begged her to become a lawyer but she wants to be a pscyhologist.

When she was younger, I told her that she could disagree but she had to do so in a polite manner. A couple of my friends have expressed disapproval for my attitude toward my daughter. They are the parents who expect kids to always say, Sir and Ma'am and to respond with, "How high" when they are told to jump.

I wonder if expecting instant obedience is part of what continues poverty in some families. If you are never allowed to express disagreement in a healthy manner or learn to negotiate, it might be harder to work in anything but a job where you only obey rules and don't think for yourself.

She sounds like one of our sons. We all like to say he's been arguing since he could talk, and he talked early! We've always said he should be an attorney, but he wants to be a nurse. Go figure.

Persuasive debate has been our family pastime for years and there was nothing off limits aside from ad hominem attacks or outright disrespect. We figured if we couldn't out-debate a 10- or 14- or 16-year old, we had bigger problems than argumentative kids. This did not produce disrespectful adults, but confident, appropriately-assertive young adults mostly.

[emmiedahl]

Yours plays the violin right? Mine plays piano, they can co-empress and make music while they are at it. :)

Grace just might share control of the universe if there was a sonata in it for her.

[EmmieJ]

My son has always known his own mind from a very early age. Now he's a teen and he does talk back, quite often. It does drive me crazy at times. However, the only time he gets in any real trouble is if I feel he's being rude. It's okay to disagree with me, but don't do it in a rude manner. Sometimes, he convinces me to change my mind, other times he doesn't. But I do let him have his say before a final decision is made. I'm sure fundies would disapprove of my parenting style, but I don't see how they could argue with the results so far: Good grades in school, no sneaking around or lying, works hard to earn his own money, and is very good to his grandparents and little brother.

[dcmhejbl62]

As a parent, the concept of instant obedience (what I was raised with in theory, if not in practice) always scared the hell out of me at a gut level. If my child, grown or not, is in a dangerous or compromising situation, I don't want him to obey, or be taken advantage of; he needs to learn how to think critically, question, argue his point, defend himself, and fight back if it comes to that.

So I don't know if it's healthiest for us poor parents, but I'd rather they question every last little thing, if necessary (and I swear sometimes they do)...

[Guest]

Long time lurker, first time poster and I just wanted to post in gratitude for this thread.

My 18 year old daughter and I had one of those less than pleasant conversations about curfew and that I'm not a huge fan of the boy she's dating - so it's nice to know that she will have a bright future. Afterwards my husband joked that we should have raised her "like those whack-jobs you're always reading about" because then we could choose her mate and never worry about where she was, because she'd always be home.

Silly us, we chose to educate her and taught her to think for herself...what did that get us? A great kid who talks back and has pretty good judgement on the big things (even if she did forget how to tell time tonight).

I guess Jill Duggar would be surprised that some of us have kids over 18 still living at home who still have a parental safety net while in college. And some young women can turn out okay even if they do wear pants and have never had a buddy or a jurisdiction.

[alaeangelorum]

This Article from NPR reports on new research that suggests that teens who are allowed to argue with their parents (in a productive/persuasive way) are better equipped to become assertive adults. It also found that those who were not permitted to "talk back" to their parents at all or question them on decisions developed more passive personalities, going with the flow even when it meant doing something they knew was wrong. This makes me think of fundie kids-- never having been allowed to voice their own opinions, it would seem likely that many of these kids would be all but incapable of making their own decisions as adults and would go along with whatever they are told to do. Which I suppose is exactly what fundie leaders want.

Thoughts?

Sounds plausible. I was wondering recently how much we should blame the adult children of fundamentalists for staying in fundamentalism and giving their children the same upbringing they themselves had/holding the views that they do... it's all they knew as children and they were taught that everybody who wasn't like them was evil, so is it any wonder that they stay with the program?

[margiebargie]

Great thread. Lots of FJ wisdom. I love the rule about "be a problem solver". I'm the top manager where I work. One of my pet peeves is people dropping problems in my lap. I pay these people to THINK. I always fold my arms and say "what's the solution"? I don't think any of these fundie kids would make it in my organization. But I'd love to have some FJ kids.

I always allow my kid to question and argue. I happen to think thats part of my job as a parent. She's not allowed to be disrespectful.

[camdendayton]

You mean first time obedience does not prepare children for a productive life in the real world? *shocking*

But on a serious note, I was one of those super opinionated, knew what I wanted and when I wanted, asked a million questions type of kids. My mom always wanted me to join the debate team in HS but I never did b/c I was swimming 20 hrs a week and didn't have time for it. When I got hurt in college and my body couldn't take the repetitive motions in swimming anymore I took some time off and ended up at a junior college where I joined the debate team. A couple years later I won the JV state championship. Something that (btw Duggars,) would look really good on a law school application. So yea, knowing how to argue is important and can be very constructive!

ETA: not, a very important word :)