Michael and Brandon 7: Lying Low in Batesville

[GreenBeans]

9 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

I wish the best for her. I can't say that I would want another child to be raised in IBLP or anything similar.

I wonder, if you have longed and waited for a child for so long, would you really beat that child, do sleep training, do blanket training and require instant obedience, force it to eat things it doesn’t like etc.? If I was in her shoes, I would probably have a hard time not spoiling that child, Iet alone mistreat or abuse it.

[Melissa1977]

53 minutes ago, GreenBeans said:

I wonder, if you have longed and waited for a child for so long, would you really beat that child, do sleep training, do blanket training and require instant obedience, force it to eat things it doesn’t like etc.? If I was in her shoes, I would probably have a hard time not spoiling that child, Iet alone mistreat or abuse it.

I don't think it happens that way. Lori's daughter, after 8 years of infertility, sleeptrained  (lettng him cry) her few days old son and trained him to sleep like 16 hours daily (12 at night, plus some naps and alone time playing in the crib). I don't want to start a mom war with my comment, I just wanted to show an example that a long wait for a child does not equal spoiling it.

I can see Michael *spoiling* a baby the few first months, but those people think that training  (even beating) is loving, so they may mix lots of affection with lots of hard moments.

[HermioneSparrow]

6 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I don't think it happens that way. Lori's daughter, after 8 years of infertility, sleeptrained  (lettng him cry) her few days old son and trained him to sleep like 16 hours daily (12 at night, plus some naps and alone time playing in the crib). I don't want to start a mom war with my comment, I just wanted to show an example that a long wait for a child does not equal spoiling it.

I can see Michael *spoiling* a baby the few first months, but those people think that training  (even beating) is loving, so they may mix lots of affection with lots of hard moments.

We can only speculate. I don't think for example that Carlin does any of that to her children (she does exploit them for the internet though). I actually think most of the Bates don't do that to their own children so they are doing better in that sense. I want to say Michael won't do that to any potential children she might have but who knows.

That being said, both Michael and Brandon are very beloved between their nieces and nephews, I know being an aunt is not the same but even her younger siblings just adore her so I will give her the benefit of the doubt, after all it doesn't even look like she'll have children.

[JermajestyDuggar]

8 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

I wonder, if you have longed and waited for a child for so long, would you really beat that child, do sleep training, do blanket training and require instant obedience, force it to eat things it doesn’t like etc.? If I was in her shoes, I would probably have a hard time not spoiling that child, Iet alone mistreat or abuse it.

Unfortunately some older kids who are adopted have been traumatized. And even non-fundies can think that being more strict/harsh will fix the kid. So part of me does hope they don’t adopt an older child. Because I’m afraid they wouldn’t handle trauma correctly. I have a hard time imagining them beating children. But I can imagine them being overly strict with a child dealing with RAD or trauma responses. 

[rebeccawriter01]

9 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

I wonder, if you have longed and waited for a child for so long, would you really beat that child, do sleep training, do blanket training and require instant obedience, force it to eat things it doesn’t like etc.? If I was in her shoes, I would probably have a hard time not spoiling that child, Iet alone mistreat or abuse it.

But that's assuming she sees the way she was raised and what her religious beliefs say is correct are essentially wrong. People who are in IBLP and do require such things or perform such acts say and believe they are doing it out of love not abuse. They think they are doing the best thing(s) for their child(ren). They don't see it as a bad thing.

[Expectopatronus]

14 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think it’s probably best if they adopt a white child. Because the Bates family has a history of racism. I know Kelly’s mom adopted her two black sisters. But they had that confederate room and the whole George Floyd situation makes me think they will probably always be racist. 

You’re probably right; that never occurred to me because for both my sister and me, a child was a child. We longed for motherhood and did not care about the colour of the the child’s skin. Our kids know that they are Haitian and Chinese and are proud of their heritage. My niece was outraged when another parent refused to allow their children to play with my daughter at the playground because she’s Chinese. 

[rebeccawriter01]

53 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Unfortunately some older kids who are adopted have been traumatized. And even non-fundies can think that being more strict/harsh will fix the kid. So part of me does hope they don’t adopt an older child. Because I’m afraid they wouldn’t handle trauma correctly. I have a hard time imagining them beating children. But I can imagine them being overly strict with a child dealing with RAD or trauma responses. 

My daughters both struggled and have some struggles still over their adoptions. While I don't feel comfortable sharing their stories completely, I will say that their birth mother was unwed and having an affair with a married man. She wanted to have his son so he would leave his wife. She gave up each daughter she birthed - five in all. My daughters have been through long term therapy and continue on a less regular basis today. They don't have memories of their time in the orphanage but they do recognize that they were in such a place. We've had to confront fears that I would abandon them if they were "bad." We've had to confront fears that their birth mother would want them back. There have been fears and trauma associated with what happened to other siblings I did not and could not take on as my own. We did so without the help of the agency that placed them with me because they were very much a religious group that recommended things like more prayer, physical discipline, and harsh treatment to scare them into proper behavior. I shunned that and consulted educators, therapists, etc. 

Even if you are paired with a child who seemingly has no mental, emotional, or physical issues, it is hard to find out for sure. A friend of mine was adopting twins. One twin seemed to be in good health and the other was severely developmentally delayed and physically disabled. She could not get answers from the agency who claimed she was not committed. She traveled to the home country with a doctor (huge expense) to find out that the baby boy was double the age they claimed, they were not twins at all, and his prognosis was less than six months to live. 

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, HermioneSparrow said:

. I actually think most of the Bates don't do that to their own children so they are doing better in that sense. I want to say Michael won't do that to any potential children she might have but who knows.

How can you be sure? They know they must not record or be explicit about trainings, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Tori is very strict, Zach talked about trainings before having Bradley, Alyssa does Ezzo training (and trained the 2-5 year old girls to sit quiet for hours watching streaming church services), and I doubt über-fundie Erin is gentle parenting. 

Maybe Carlin, Josie and Katie are softer, but they go to fundie churches too.

 

[HermioneSparrow]

2 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

How can you be sure? They know they must not record or be explicit about trainings, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Tori is very strict, Zach talked about trainings before having Bradley, Alyssa does Ezzo training (and trained the 2-5 year old girls to sit quiet for hours watching streaming church services), and I doubt über-fundie Erin is gentle parenting. 

Maybe Carlin, Josie and Katie are softer, but they go to fundie churches too.

 

I'm not sure obviously but none of Zach's kids look trained to me, same with Carlin, Josie and Katie. If you compare them with the Websters, Paines and Smiths, the difference is striking. Compare Allie Jane's attitude with Khloe, Layla and Willow, I see it. They don't seem broken or unhappy like Allie or Brooklyn or Kade. At least that's my appreciation. I can't be sure but there's a stark contrast between them and their parents or the Duggar's 19 kids.

[LillyP]

I'm sure this will be unpopular, but both my kids (6 & almost 3) are sleep trained and are perfectly happy, well adjusted kids who aren't broken.  My 3 year old is currently next to me telling me "I love you" and snuggling me. Plenty of people sleep train and it's not this crazy traumatic thing people wrap into their heads. There is an age appropriate time to sleep train, and newborn isn't it. That being said, there are a lot of things we learned from sleep training our oldest (at 7 months) that we implemented from day one with our youngest (like establishing a consistent bedtime routine) that helped tremendously. Even with all the middle of the night nursing sessions he still went back to sleep easily. We help to teach our kids to do everything else in life....walk, potty train, tie their shoes, use a pencil, etc. I'd consider myself a pretty "strict" parent compared to many of my peers, because I'm committed to raising kids who are kind and respectful with good manners and can behave themselves. As a mom of a Kindergartener, I am constantly shocked at the lack of behavior and manners I see out of a vast majority of kids these days. That doesn't mean you aren't loving and fun, and by "strict" I mean we expect our kids to listen, use manners, behave appropriately based on the situation, etc . I don't disagree that the Bates were probably on a whole different level, and I think it's not surprising many of the children have opted to be more relaxed in their parenting approach. 

[Tangy Bee]

I suspect Tori probably trains her children, but we don't see much of them. Am I the only one who notices her husband's weight fluctuates🤔

[FluffySnowball]

28 minutes ago, LillyP said:

I'm sure this will be unpopular, but both my kids (6 & almost 3) are sleep trained and are perfectly happy, well adjusted kids who aren't broken.  My 3 year old is currently next to me telling me "I love you" and snuggling me. Plenty of people sleep train and it's not this crazy traumatic thing people wrap into their heads. 

There's an overwhelming consensus among paediatricians and child psychologists and the potentially damaging effects of sleep training have been scientifically examined and proven. So while you appear to have chosen otherwise for your children, and while such a choice is valid if you think that's what's best for your family, the scientific facts remain, plain and simple. I understand it's easier to try to rationalise medical opinions away and of course not every mistake parents make affects every child the same way and/or traumatises every child. However, I take issue with spreading misinformation. Also, a child saying or not saying "I love you" gives absolutely zero clues about whether said child is traumatised or not, so that's just a weird thing to say within this context. 

Yes, I know I might come across quite harshly, but I cannot sugar-coat my opinion in this instance. 

Edited April 9 by FluffySnowball

[SassyPants]

22 minutes ago, Tangy Bee said:

I suspect Tori probably trains her children, but we don't see much of them. Am I the only one who notices her husband's weight fluctuates🤔

Well, she’s always pregnant-postpartum-pregnant-postpartum, so she does have a reason for her weight to be fluctuating and for her body to be changing. 

On a side note, both KJ and Michelle D look fantastic for middle aged women who have had mega numbers of pregnancies and deliveries.

[HereticHick]

2 hours ago, Tangy Bee said:

I suspect Tori probably trains her children, but we don't see much of them. Am I the only one who notices her husband's weight fluctuates🤔

Weight fluctuation happens. What is your point?

[Tangy Bee]

@SassyPantsNo I mean her husband's weight. And yes I agree that Kelly & Michelle look great.

@HereticHick yes weight fluctuates. Packed on plenty pounds November-Jan. Holiday meals are the best! 😋It just looks like Bobby is up and down. Could be stress. Or maybe he gains while Tori is pregnant. 

[gobucks]

I'm sure their food changes quite a bit whether she is in early pregnancy, late pregnancy, or nursing, so that probably accounts for his fluctuations. 

[Keys]

13 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

There's an overwhelming consensus among paediatricians and child psychologists and the potentially damaging effects of sleep training have been scientifically examined and proven. So while you appear to have chosen otherwise for your children, and while such a choice is valid if you think that's what's best for your family, the scientific facts remain, plain and simple. I understand it's easier to try to rationalise medical opinions away and of course not every mistake parents make affects every child the same way and/or traumatises every child. However, I take issue with spreading misinformation. Also, a child saying or not saying "I love you" gives absolutely zero clues about whether said child is traumatised or not, so that's just a weird thing to say within this context. 

Yes, I know I might come across quite harshly, but I cannot sugar-coat my opinion in this instance. 

I work in the medical field and completely and utterly agonized over my baby’s sleep for the first year of her life. We had been through some significant traumatic events around the time of her birth, and I developed postpartum depression. She absolutely would not sleep in the bassinet. Was up for hours in the night and would wake within minutes of being put down. Always. I tried all the things. I ended up having her sleep beside me in bed, something I NEVER thought I’d do, because it was quite literally the only thing that allowed me to continue on. All the while, I was bashed and blamed by family and even some friends for not being “strict” enough with my newborn baby, coddling her, “teaching her bad habits”, etc. It was a really difficult time. 
 

As she got older, I hired a sleep consultant who was against sleep training. But I read so many studies in the literature that, quite honestly, didn’t find any difference long-term in kids who were sleep trained vs not. I essentially did a literature review, lol (and I say this as a medical professional who’s been in school for 10 years and has done and read lots of research!). It still wasn’t something I was comfortable with though (flared my PPD horribly when she was distressed), so we were able to support her gradually in transitioning to the crib. 

The experience was humbling. Sleep is so far from a one-size-fits-all approach. I don’t judge what others choose to do about it because it’s so freaking hard and every baby is entirely different. Some sleep well off the bat (and those parents I found were quicker to judge because they didn’t have a hard time with it like I did), and others need extra support and patience and time and contact. It just is the way it is. 

[Expectopatronus]

Mine is four and still refuses to sleep in her own bed and doesn’t sleep through the night. I hired a sleep consultant when she was a year and they refunded my money and said that they had never met a child who was so strong willed at such a young age. We had been making progress with her starting the night in her own bed until I broke my leg. That set us back and then my surgeries and hospitalizations set us back even further. Sigh. Some day I’ll sleep again 

[JermajestyDuggar]

10 hours ago, Keys said:

I work in the medical field and completely and utterly agonized over my baby’s sleep for the first year of her life. We had been through some significant traumatic events around the time of her birth, and I developed postpartum depression. She absolutely would not sleep in the bassinet. Was up for hours in the night and would wake within minutes of being put down. Always. I tried all the things. I ended up having her sleep beside me in bed, something I NEVER thought I’d do, because it was quite literally the only thing that allowed me to continue on. All the while, I was bashed and blamed by family and even some friends for not being “strict” enough with my newborn baby, coddling her, “teaching her bad habits”, etc. It was a really difficult time. 
 

As she got older, I hired a sleep consultant who was against sleep training. But I read so many studies in the literature that, quite honestly, didn’t find any difference long-term in kids who were sleep trained vs not. I essentially did a literature review, lol (and I say this as a medical professional who’s been in school for 10 years and has done and read lots of research!). It still wasn’t something I was comfortable with though (flared my PPD horribly when she was distressed), so we were able to support her gradually in transitioning to the crib. 

The experience was humbling. Sleep is so far from a one-size-fits-all approach. I don’t judge what others choose to do about it because it’s so freaking hard and every baby is entirely different. Some sleep well off the bat (and those parents I found were quicker to judge because they didn’t have a hard time with it like I did), and others need extra support and patience and time and contact. It just is the way it is. 

I was so sleep deprived I was hallucinating. When you get to that point, you start to understand that sometimes sleep training might be the best choice in your own situation. I didn’t sleep train, but looking back, it probably would have been better than the alternative. 

[HermioneSparrow]

38 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

Mine is four and still refuses to sleep in her own bed and doesn’t sleep through the night. I hired a sleep consultant when she was a year and they refunded my money and said that they had never met a child who was so strong willed at such a young age. We had been making progress with her starting the night in her own bed until I broke my leg. That set us back and then my surgeries and hospitalizations set us back even further. Sigh. Some day I’ll sleep again 

My oldest still sleeps with us, I never attempted to sleep train her or her brother but she just refuses to sleep on her bed. Her bro on the other hand, naturally wanted his own space so even though he's younger, he sleeps on his crib very happily. My daughter is just really strong willed and I let her be even at the expense of my own sleep😖 I guess at some point she'll want her own space to sleep.

[gobucks]

5 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

Mine is four and still refuses to sleep in her own bed and doesn’t sleep through the night. I hired a sleep consultant when she was a year and they refunded my money and said that they had never met a child who was so strong willed at such a young age. We had been making progress with her starting the night in her own bed until I broke my leg. That set us back and then my surgeries and hospitalizations set us back even further. Sigh. Some day I’ll sleep again 

The only thing that worked for my incredibly stubborn child was an alarm clock. It was from amazon and was a dog holding a ball. When the ball is red, you stay in bed. It took MONTHS with a sleep psychologist but it worked! 

[vienna]

First of all, there are many ways named "sleep training". There are 1000 ways for millions of different baby personalities to get them to sleep through the night. For me, it is cruel to leave a baby all alone in a dark room and let it cry with no response. But sleep training can also be putting a kid in bed and only calming it down with your voice and not taking it out and many other things.

Sleep deprivation is an actual method of torture, babys are sooo different and while I find leaving a crying baby alone cruel, I would be very careful to judge parents in this regard. Blanked training on the other hand is 100% cruel and inexcusable to me.

[GreenBeans]

5 hours ago, vienna said:

Sleep deprivation is an actual method of torture, babys are sooo different and while I find leaving a crying baby alone cruel, I would be very careful to judge parents in this regard.

Some parents are desperate to the point of shaking their baby (which can cause life long disabilities). So the recommendation here from CPS and pediatricians is that in a situation like that, it’s better to leave your crying child in a safe place (eg its crib), close the door and step away (and try to get someone else to come and help to give you a break if possible). In a situation like that, letting a child cry (though not ideal) is still the better alternative.

Thankfully, I’ve never been in a situation like that. Our child cried of course, and some nights it felt like we were carrying him around for hours, but we were two people so we could take turns, and overall it was within a normal range.

But imagine being a single mom after a traumatic birth with a high-need non stop crying baby. I wouldn’t blame her for being desperate at some point.

[Expectopatronus]

It’s awful! I am a single mom and had a baby who was impossible to settle. I have a picture of her from when she was seven months old, in bed with her toy tambourine clenched in her fist at 11:00. She had been playing that thing for hours and was not giving it up. At four, she still doesn’t sleep well and I am not proud of it but I have screamed « stop! Just stop! » when I am exhausted and she is refusing to put on pyjamas and get into bed. Closing her bedroom door doesn’t work because she refuses to sleep in her bed or room. I tried sleep training at the advice of her paediatrician and abandoned it when she screamed all night, declared a hunger strike and kept it up for days. 

[vienna]

My sister has triplets. She is the best mum in the world but she and her husband are simply not abel to do with three Babys would I can do with one baby. She can not cuddle each three when they need it all at the same time,  she can not pick them up all at the same time. You can not expect things from parents with more kids that you can expect from parents with one kid. My sister really had a hard time because she could not be the mum she always imagined to be. Sometimes when two or all three triplets were crying and she just had their voice to calm them down. Its is just not possibel another way. That does not make her a bad mum und the triplets will bot be psychological wreks or traumatised.