John and Chelsy 10: Living Life

[Coconut Flan]

Continued from here:

 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

Chelsy wrote a tribute to her grandmother who died last month. She was Marlin's mother. Chelsy wrote a tribute to Becky's father when he died. She's always been close to her grandparents. Chelsy is a good writer and it's a nice tribute. 

[Bastet]

   Like Chelsy, my son and I are introverts. (I’m actually a fairly extreme one and would make a pretty good hermit.) Like Chelsy, my son and I have developed extroverted personas. I was a teacher, and I needed to do this to be at all effective. The key here is that I am not shy. Introversion and shyness are not the same though you can be both. Introversion is a group of preferences about how you move through the world, needing solitude in a way that extroverts can scarcely imagine. Shyness is a social anxiety that may be lifelong and consistent but may well not be, varying throughout a lifetime and perhaps showing up only in certain circumstances. My son and I have no trouble addressing a group—we aren’t at all shy; however, dealing with many people throughout  a long day is exhausting for us. An introvert like me who is way off to the left on a bell curve, needs extended periods of solitude to regroup. I’m not sure how Chelsy found enough time alone in a big family, but i suspect she is not an extreme introvert—most aren’t. An introverted mother of small children will need to extrovert her thoughts and feelings for them at times, and it’s likely Chelsy understands this and isn’t unduly burdened by it. Her introversion can be a gift to her children too, making her a quiet center amid the whirr of family life. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Bastet

[Black Aliss]

On 3/20/2023 at 7:30 PM, Bastet said:

Like Chelsy, my son and I are introverts. (I’m actually a fairly extreme one and would make a pretty good hermit.)

A few weeks after the Covid lockdown began my primary care doc called to ask how I was doing. I told her, as an introvert, I'd been training for this event for the last 70 years. She laughted.

[JermajestyDuggar]

My dad and my sister are natural extroverts. While my mom and I are natural introverts. However my mom and I are helpers by nature. So we must interact with the public to do the things that make us feel good about ourselves. But we also need that alone time. I partly SAH so I can get some alone time while my kids are at school. Lock down was so hard for me as an introvert because my kids were there with me 24/7. I got almost zero alone time and it was horrible. 

[Bethy]

@BigSandy you commented on the last thread how sad it was that Chelsy is an introvert who was forced to be an extrovert. I agree...these are people who (even if they aren't running a touring ministry with kids growing up in the spotlight) don't value individual needs - and the need to have alone time to recharge would probably be viewed as selfish. Which is very sad.

6 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Lock down was so hard for me as an introvert because my kids were there with me 24/7. I got almost zero alone time and it was horrible. 

Ugh...I hear you. My daughter wasn't in school yet when lockdown happened, so we didn't have to contend with online school for her at least, but she got SOOOO clingy (I couldn't shower or pee alone - she was on me like a shadow.) I found myself staying up until 3AM most nights watching TV or working on crafts just to have some quiet alone time. Ultimately I don't think that really served my mental health but I was absolutely touched out, talked out, and mommed out by the end of every day.

[HereticHick]

On 3/20/2023 at 10:30 PM, Bastet said:

   Like Chelsy, my son and I are introverts. (I’m actually a fairly extreme one and would make a pretty good hermit.) Like Chelsy, my son and I have developed extroverted personas. I was a teacher, and I needed to do this to be at all effective. The key here is that I am not shy. Introversion and shyness are not the same though you can be both. Introversion is a group of preferences about how you move through the world, needing solitude in a way that extroverts can scarcely imagine. Shyness is a social anxiety that may be lifelong and consistent but may well not be, varying throughout a lifetime and perhaps showing up only in certain circumstances. My son and I have no trouble addressing a group—we aren’t at all shy; however, dealing with many people throughout  a long day is exhausting for us. An introvert like me who is way off to the left on a bell curve, needs extended periods of solitude to regroup. I’m not sure how Chelsy found enough time alone in a big family, but i suspect she is not an extreme introvert—most aren’t. An introverted mother of small children will need to extrovert her thoughts and feelings for them at times, and it’s likely Chelsy understands this and isn’t unduly burdened by it. Her introversion can be a gift to her children too, making her a quiet center amid the whirr of family life. 

same with me. I can also address groups no problem (after years of practice) but being an introvert all day is exhausting. I believe that true extroverts (think of former President Bill Clinton) gain energy from extroverting, while introverts with extrovert personas (more like former President Obama) find the extroversion to be an energy drain.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Myself and two friends all like to get together throughout the year. The 3 of us are 3 different types. I’m an introvert, one friend is an extrovert, and the other is in between. Even though we are all talkers. The three of us could talk everyone’s ears off. I’m an introvert but I could talk to my friends and family a lot. My introversion comes from being exhausted from socializing mixed with my social anxiety with new people or people I don’t know well. I’m so quiet around new people. People think I’m shy but I’m not. I just hate small talk with a fiery passion. I feel like it’s almost physically painful to endure. But if someone I just met wants to talk about really interesting non small talk stuff, I’m all in. But most people don’t want to do that. So I just try to avoid talking to new people. 

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Myself and two friends all like to get together throughout the year. The 3 of us are 3 different types. I’m an introvert, one friend is an extrovert, and the other is in between. Even though we are all talkers. The three of us could talk everyone’s ears off. I’m an introvert but I could talk to my friends and family a lot. My introversion comes from being exhausted from socializing mixed with my social anxiety with new people or people I don’t know well. I’m so quiet around new people. People think I’m shy but I’m not. I just hate small talk with a fiery passion. I feel like it’s almost physically painful to endure. But if someone I just met wants to talk about really interesting non small talk stuff, I’m all in. But most people don’t want to do that. So I just try to avoid talking to new people. 

  Generally real introverts go to a big party where they won’t know many people only if they feel obligated to, and then they try to figure out when they can politely leave. (Or perhaps they can just leave without saying goodbye and no one will notice?) But a world class extrovert will be there until the last call and will definitely then be up for yet another party.  (Hell, yeah!) Introverts are depleted by big parties but extroverts are energized.  
   Back in the day extroverts would sometimes try to get me to drink more, figuring I’d then be more fun.  (I would not. I’d be asleep under the table.)  At least they don’t do that anymore.

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Bastet

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 hours ago, Bastet said:

  Generally real introverts go to a big party where they won’t know many people only if they feel obligated to, and then they try to figure out when they can politely leave. (Or perhaps they can just leave without saying goodbye and no one will notice?) But a world class extrovert will be there until the last call and will definitely then be up for yet another party.  (Hell, yeah!) Introverts are depleted by big parties but extroverts are energized.  
   Back in the day extroverts would sometimes try to get me to drink more, figuring I’d then be more fun.  (I would not. I’d be asleep under the table.)  At least they don’t do that anymore.

 

This is why I like living in a large city. When I grew up in a small town, you saw people you knew everywhere. You couldn’t just run to the grocery store without seeing a bunch of people you know. Now that I live in a large city, I don’t actually see people at Target that often. I might sometimes. But not always. It’s easier to be private in a large city. And in a small town, everyone knows your business. Which is so annoying. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by JermajestyDuggar

[Gobsmacked]

On 3/24/2023 at 1:49 AM, Bethy said:

@BigSandy you commented on the last thread how sad it was that Chelsy is an introvert who was forced to be an extrovert. I agree...these are people who (even if they aren't running a touring ministry with kids growing up in the spotlight) don't value individual needs - and the need to have alone time to recharge would probably be viewed as selfish. Which is very sad.

Ugh...I hear you. My daughter wasn't in school yet when lockdown happened, so we didn't have to contend with online school for her at least, but she got SOOOO clingy (I couldn't shower or pee alone - she was on me like a shadow.) I found myself staying up until 3AM most nights watching TV or working on crafts just to have some quiet alone time. Ultimately I don't think that really served my mental health but I was absolutely touched out, talked out, and mommed out by the end of every day.

I’m with you in this. I began staying up far to late for the alone time during covid.  Two grown sons and one newly retired husband all day everyday. No thanks. 

[Loveday]

58 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

This is why I like living in a large city. When I grew up in a small town, you saw people you knew everywhere. You couldn’t just run to the grocery store without seeing a bunch of people you know. Now that I live in a large city, I don’t actually see people at Target that often. I might sometimes. But not always. It’s easier to be private in a large city. And in a small town, everyone knows your business. Which is so annoying. 

Every time my mother and I would visit her very, very small hometown, which she had left in 1954 and only returned to for a couple of years in the late 80s before moving to the nearby city), we would run into someone she knew, either at the grocery store where we'd stopped to buy flowers for her parents' graves, or the local cafe for a quick bite (we'd run into people there like Governor Wolf, who often stopped in for breakfast before and not quite so often after his election to office), or at the candy factory that had a little outlet shop (talk about REALLY FRESH CANDY OMG!). And one time, my aunt and I had stopped at the store for some flowers, and the guy who waited on us was a cousin she hadn't seen since their high school days in the early 60s! She had left right after high school and never moved back, and he had never left home. Small towns. Crazy places. LOL.

44 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

I’m with you in this. I began staying up far to late for the alone time during covid.  Two grown sons and one newly retired husband all day everyday. No thanks. 

Covid is when my habit of staying up until 1 or 2 am started. Before that, I'd get to bed by midnight, but after March 2020 I was staying up later and later, just to have that time to myself. My husband was teaching remotely (I got a great refresher course in 7th grade life science!😆), and my son was working from home as well. Just about drove me insane. I still stay up super late because now I find I can't get to sleep any earlier, no matter how tired I am!

[Caroline]

4 hours ago, Bastet said:

  Generally real introverts go to a big party where they won’t know many people only if they feel obligated to, and then they try to figure out when they can politely leave. (Or perhaps they can just leave without saying goodbye and no one will notice?) But a world class extrovert will be there until the last call and will definitely then be up for yet another party.  (Hell, yeah!) Introverts are depleted by big parties but extroverts are energized.  
   Back in the day extroverts would sometimes try to get me to drink more, figuring I’d then be more fun.  (I would not. I’d be asleep under the table.)  At least they don’t do that anymore.

 

This is so me. I HATE parties especially if I don't know a lot of people. I can't stand the noise and the obligatory small talk. I'm not a drinker because I too am under the table after a glass of wine. I have no tolerance for alcohol at all, and I really don't enjoy the taste of anything but wine with certain types of food, never on its own.  My friends, especially in college, were always sure they could convert me, but soon gave up because I'd practically be asleep when everyone else was just getting started.  A social venue I really hate is any bar - so much noise and so hard to hear what people are saying. I always feel like I'm screaming at the person I'm trying to talk to.

My husband and I have been invited to a super fancy black tie wedding a few states away. We got the save-the-date, looked at each other, and said simultaneously, "No way!"  Weddings for me are the worst: the clothing I don't want to buy and wear, the excess of too much of everything, the loud music and dancing - all of it!  (We eloped and have never regretted it for a minute.)

I've been a teacher for a loooong time. I like people, but I need to feel connected to them. School is great for that because I can develop relationships over time with kids I see every day. I'm not shy either, just sensitive to noise and too much physical activity around me. High schools can certainly be loud and busy, but in my classroom I can make the rules. Elementary schools and middle schools drive me crazy. I don't even like to visit the ones in our district. It always seems like kids are making noise just for the sake of making noise. I was so glad when our daughter outgrew the birthday party phase where the whole class was invited to someplace like Chucky Cheese. That's the stuff of nightmares for me.  I felt lucky that our daughter was born in the summer where we weren't pressured to invite everyone in the class. She invited three or four  friends and we kept it really simple.  I remember those simple birthday parties much more than the extravaganzas some families threw.

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

6 minutes ago, Caroline said:

This is so me. I HATE parties especially if I don't know a lot of people. I can't stand the noise and the obligatory small talk. I'm not a drinker because I too am under the table after a glass of wine. I have no tolerance for alcohol at all, and I really don't enjoy the taste of anything but wine with certain types of food, never on its own.  My friends, especially in college, were always sure they could convert me, but soon gave up because I'd practically be asleep when everyone else was just getting started.  A social venue I really hate is any bar - so much noise and so hard to hear what people are saying. I always feel like I'm screaming at the person I'm trying to talk to.

My husband and I have been invited to a super fancy black tie wedding a few states away. We got the save-the-date, looked at each other, and said simultaneously, "No way!"  Weddings for me are the worst: the clothing I don't want to buy and wear, the excess of too much of everything, the loud music and dancing - all of it!  (We eloped and have never regretted it for a minute.)

I've been a teacher for a loooong time. I like people, but I need to feel connected to them. School is great for that because I can develop relationships over time with kids I see every day. I'm not shy either, just sensitive to noise and too much physical activity around me. High schools can certainly be loud and busy, but in my classroom I can make the rules. Elementary schools and middle schools drive me crazy. I don't even like to visit the ones in our district. It always seems like kids are making noise just for the sake of making noise. I was so glad when our daughter outgrew the birthday party phase where the whole class was invited to someplace like Chucky Cheese. That's the stuff of nightmares for me.  I felt lucky that our daughter was born in the summer where we weren't pressured to invite everyone in the class. She invited three or four  friends and we kept it really simple.  I remember those simple birthday parties much more than the extravaganzas some families threw.

 

I feel like I could have written most of this. Even in college I just wanted to hang out and have small get togethers with like 12 of us just drinking at our house and playing cards. I hated most of the bars in our college town because they were so loud! We had way more fun at home playing drinking games and just chatting. 

[0 kids n not countin]

59 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I feel like I could have written most of this. Even in college I just wanted to hang out and have small get togethers with like 12 of us just drinking at our house and playing cards. I hated most of the bars in our college town because they were so loud! We had way more fun at home playing drinking games and just chatting. 

Lol, to me 12 is a HUGE gathering. I feel the most comfortable socializing with one other couple or 2 couples at the most or 6 people tops including myself. I'm extremely introverted and also shy (though somewhat better at managing my shyness now that I'm old).

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 minute ago, 0 kids n not countin said:

Lol, to me 12 is a HUGE gathering. I feel the most comfortable socializing with one other couple or 2 couples at the most or 6 people tops including myself. I'm extremely introverted and also shy (though somewhat better at managing my shyness now that I'm old).

Our friend group was around 10 or so people college. We didn’t have a huge friend group in general though. We just stuck with a lot of the same people all 4 years. But it was easy to have a dozen people or more at the house if some people brought boyfriends. Nowadays I hang out in much smaller friend groups. It’s impossible to get a bunch of people with kids and jobs together because everyone is so busy. In college we had plenty of time to just hang out. 

[mystikchick17]

Ok the tribute is lovely, but more importantly, in that shot of Great Grandma reading to the boys, I spy a library barcode on the book cover. Steve, your utter lack of continual control and success over your children continues to bring me great joy.

Also, her grandmother's official obituary from the funeral says that her mother was originally a Bontrager: "daughter of Menno and Barbara (Bontrager) Chupp" so she married a cousin?

Edited April 1, 2023 by mystikchick17

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 hours ago, mystikchick17 said:

Ok the tribute is lovely, but more importantly, in that shot of Great Grandma reading to the boys, I spy a library barcode on the book cover. Steve, your utter lack of continual control and success over your children continues to bring me great joy.

Also, her grandmother's official obituary from the funeral says that her mother was originally a Bontrager: "daughter of Menno and Barbara (Bontrager) Chupp" so she married a cousin?

When it comes to the Amish, there are a lot of people with the same last name. Bontrager, Miller, Yoder, Lapp, Troyer, Stolzfus, Gingerich are all popular names. The thing is, I don’t think the Amish marry first cousins very often. I think they know enough about modern genetics to know it’s not healthy to marry first cousins. However they do marry 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th cousins all the time. And that’s why there are so many genetic disorders in Amish communities. If you keep marrying 3rd cousins over and over, you’ll end up with some recessive genetic disorders popping up. 

[Bethy]

12 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

When it comes to the Amish, there are a lot of people with the same last name. Bontrager, Miller, Yoder, Lapp, Troyer, Stolzfus, Gingerich are all popular names. The thing is, I don’t think the Amish marry first cousins very often. I think they know enough about modern genetics to know it’s not healthy to marry first cousins. However they do marry 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th cousins all the time. And that’s why there are so many genetic disorders in Amish communities. If you keep marrying 3rd cousins over and over, you’ll end up with some recessive genetic disorders popping up. 

I have a Mennonite friend who has several family members with a particular outer-ear deformity which is apparently quite common in Mennonite circles due to all the intermarrying.

[Black Aliss]

On 3/31/2023 at 7:19 AM, HereticHick said:

same with me. I can also address groups no problem (after years of practice) but being an introvert all day is exhausting. I believe that true extroverts (think of former President Bill Clinton) gain energy from extroverting, while introverts with extrovert personas (more like former President Obama) find the extroversion to be an energy drain.

I always say introverts get their energy from being alone; extroverts get their energy by sucking it out of introverts.

re intermarriage: Just about everything that can "go wrong" with a person on my father's side of the family was attributed to the fact that Grandma was a Frieslander. It was claimed that Grandma  pushed my father to court my mother because mom's family came from a completely different area of the Netherlands, while all the Dutch families in their tiny North Dakota community were from the same northern region, including the Friesian islands. Of course it would have been unthinkable for him to marry into one of the non-Dutch families in the area.

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

I always say introverts get their energy from being alone; extroverts get their energy by sucking it out of introverts.

re intermarriage: Just about everything that can "go wrong" with a person on my father's side of the family was attributed to the fact that Grandma was a Frieslander. It was claimed that Grandma  pushed my father to court my mother because mom's family came from a completely different area of the Netherlands, while all the Dutch families in their tiny North Dakota community were from the same northern region, including the Friesian islands. Of course it would have been unthinkable for him to marry into one of the non-Dutch families in the area.

If you look at the monarchies in Europe, the Habsburg Jaw was created from constant inbreeding. They were the worst offenders because uncles were marrying nieces left and right while also marrying double first cousins to one another. It was just so much incest that miscarriages, still births, and infant deaths were at a higher rate than average at that time. It was higher than some peasants who had practically nothing. While royalty had plenty of money for food, clothing, housing, and doctors. And they lost so many pregnancies and infants. It’s usually blamed on the incest. 
 

Interesting note: Marie Antoinette was a Habsburg but her mom and dad were one of the few marriages that weren’t super close incest so people believe they had many healthy children because of that. 

[Black Aliss]

On 4/1/2023 at 12:48 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

If you look at the monarchies in Europe, the Habsburg Jaw was created from constant inbreeding.

Also many of them had hairlines that started at their eyebrows.

But yeah, the Friesian islands were so isolated from the rest of northern Europe that not only was their language  unintelligible to Dutch speakers but each island had its own distinct dialect. I'm sure there hasn't been much inbreeding in the last couple of centuries, but there certainly was in earlier centuries, when they had to depend on marauding Vikings to deliver fresh genetic material.

[JermajestyDuggar]

58 minutes ago, Black Aliss said:

Also many of them had hairlines that started at their eyebrows.

But yeah, the Friesian islands were so isolated from the rest of northern Europe that not only was their language  unintelligible to Dutch speakers but each island had its own distinct dialect. I'm sure there hasn't been much inbreeding in the last couple of centuries, but there certainly was in earlier centuries, when they had to depend on marauding Vikings to deliver fresh genetic material.

I know low hairlines were very unpopular back then. But I guess it’s good that they could shave their foreheads to look more typical. A very large lower lip was also a Habsburg trait. Some only had slightly large lower lips while others had enormous ones 

[LurkerOverThePond]

Chelsy's tribute to Grandma Bontrager was truly lovely. She clearly knew her as a person, and I loved reading small anecdotes of her, like Grandma inquiring about Chelsy's love life. Based on Chelsy and the Bontrager's blogs, Grandma always seemed like a genuinely nice person and this tribute pretty much confirms that. Also, I loved the picture of Chelsy and Grandma cooking Thanksgiving meal  together. 

Chelsy is a good writer and can write about interesting little personal things instead of just praising someone as a devout follower of God. She seems like a genuinely kind and sweet person - too bad for her being a fundamentalist.

[indianabones]

I kept waiting for Chelsy to announce her next pregnancy, but then I went back and reread her blog. I think she's seriously afraid of dying in labor if she gets pregnant again (her mitral valve is only a quarter of the diameter it's supposed to be, even after her surgery) and that they're actively preventing until they get a doctor's okay. I also think that she and John must remember how traumatic their NICU experience was for them when they discuss having another baby.