IFBs and Calvinism... or the Lack Thereof...

[punkiepie]

I have a few questions for those who grew up IFB, or are still IFB, about your church(es) and Calvinism. I grew up in a pretty fundie IFBC that was split between Calvinists and Arminians. I would NOT call my former church fundie-lite, although some of the families (as was mine) were, albeit very covertly, but it wasn't full on hard core fundie like some of the other churches written about here. I wrote about one of my "favorite" examples of humiliation/torture I was put through in another forum, but briefly here that is- let me set the stage- I was a gawky 13 year old, just on the verge of turning "pretty," but I was still looking awkward and had not quite grown into my looks yet. It was Valentine's Day and it fell on a Sunday so I decided to wear a red dress that I'd (okay, my fundie mom) bought for the occasion. It was practically a frumper, came down almost to my ankles, didn't cling to my body, and it was the exact opposite of anything remotely immodest and I wore a white turtle neck underneath.

 

 

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As I was walking into the sanctuary with all my of friends, one of the deacons called my name and told me to comer over him- he then pulled me aside and asked me if I thought Jesus would like me wearing the color of harlots in His house on the Lord's day. Everyone in the lobby (and there were a lot of people) turned and stared at us and I was opening my mouth trying to speak- no real words came out, just a few stammering attempts to create some kind of answer. Then he told me that all women who wear red were harlots and since I was wearing red, I must be a harlot or jezzie. [as in the lovely Jezebel} He said that word so many times and each repetition was like a slap in my face. He went on to say I was not to wear anything that had red as the predominant color to church ever again. And finally, he said that if I wanted to be allowed into the sanctuary I had to put on my winter coat and wear it for the the entire service- lest I become a stumbling block to the other young boys and men there that day and cause them to have carnal thoughts while in the Lord's House.

 

I was 13. It was a gawky year for me, but I had finally started to outgrow the awkward stage, I got contacts, grew out my bangs, and was starting to look prettier than I had in years. I was still a long way from even remotely resembling a seductress, harlot, temptress, but apparently men at my old church could only keep their lusty thoughts in check when surrounded by fugly or prepubescent females. I cried and cried and felt so guilty. See, the dress was really not pretty at all, but the color red looked good on me and somehow I felt pretty that day. On the way to church I even thought how my church crush might notice me. I thought the deacon was right- I was a harlot. I didn't question the deacon, I just accepted what happened and believed that God was angry at me for being prideful and trying to use my outward appearance to appeal to the boy I liked. The whole incident was so shattering to my self esteem and it took me years before I would ever red again.

 

So that's the kinda environment I was in.

 

Now the weird thing about my IFB is that there was a 50-50% split between the Arminians and the Calvinists. The entire youth program leadership was Calvinist and the regular leadership were somewhere between 3-5 point Calvinists with the most "iffy" point being Limited Atonement (meaning Jesus only died for the sins of the elect and not for the sins for the world). But, with the exception of the youth group leaders who worked with kids ages 12-18, and who tried to indoctrinate the hell out of us with TULIP, Calvinism and it's tenants were never discussed unless a person specifically brought up in a one-on-one kinda setting. There were never any sermons given, not even one, that would have hinted or let any visitors know that lurking underneath the surface was a full fledged belief in the tenants of Calvinism. My IFB was all about "soul winning," "alter calls," missionaries, littering Bible tracts on Halloween, and including personalized notes on how to get "saved" in their monetary tips to waitresses at restaurants. So when I was first taught about Calvinism it completely screwed up my faith and started a many years long spiral into, what I now call, my religious pit of depression.

 

My complete indoctrination of everything my church believed made it seem impossible for me to still be Christian yet somehow reject TULIP. If I rejected TULIP than I was rejecting the Bible and that meant fiery pits of hell. It took me years and then some plus a lot of researching to unravel the knots of damage that caused. Calvinism completely screwed up my faith and to be able to salvage it all, I did a lot of studying so that I can figure out what I actually believed and not what I was indoctrinated to believe. And here's where my real question(s) come into play:

 

Did/Does anyone who was/is part of an IFBC ever go to one who that was also Calvinistic? Or like in my case, not so much "teach" it, but wholeheartedly believe it? And if so, how did that work out for you and were you able to reconcile it? In my church, many of the older members were full on Arminians, didn't want any part of Calvin and it was the younger members who had embraced it- although more quietly. The two factions were able to coexist as long as it remained relegated to the youth group and to yourself. Did this happen in any other churches? Sometimes I really wonder how I happened to be raised in the seemingly only Calvinist believing IFBC. Please tell me there are more of you!

 

 

I am no longer part of an IFB church and I'm full on Arminian, probably to the point being the almost "heretical" semi-pelagian. I have a real love for CS Lewis' the Last Battle and believe (or want to believe more than anything, or as least as much as I've been able to unindoctrinate myself) that that's how it really is. For those who don't know, Emeth represents those who worship false gods and Aslan is the "real" deal. Emeth says, "Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him." But Aslan tells him "I take to me the services which thou hast done to Tash. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him." Basically, in the end, the only thing that matters is that you spend your life seeking truth and good. (I love how how hard core fundies love love love CS Lewis but pretend like this book, or at least this part doesn't exist!)

[apple1]

What time frame are you talking about?

I was raised IFB (I'm old) and at that time Calvinism was generally the exception in Baptist churches, or at least in any of the ones my family participated in. (These were a few different IFB churches, since we lived several places due to my father's jobs).

In more recent years, I am hearing more and more of Calvinism in Baptist churches. (I expect this issue to split the SBC within the next few years, actually). I am not really sure what is driving this overall transition, other than pendulum-swinging. I do think that (as discussed in a previous FJ thread) Calvinists like to present themselves as educated and intellectual. There may be a small piece of this that is a reaction to the anti-intellectualism of some of the past's IFB leaders.

Aside: That is a horrible story. My take on it is that the man was just plain mentally unstable. That doesn't make it any less abusive. So sorry you went through that.

[abba12]

This is something that has interested me lately upon realising that so many conservative families in america are actually arminian.

In Australia, we don't have any IFBCs, but calvanism seems to be the most accepted in conservative/fundie circles. All the other 'fundie' families I know are calvanists. My husband is a strict calvanist. I'd never met a fundie or even fundie lite arminian. Kinda puts me in a weird situation because I'm not calvanist! (then again, I have completely different end times philosophy to them as well. Many interesting conversations follow as they light heartedly try to 'convert' me in both areas :D)

I consider myself somewhere in the middle, I don't fully agree with either side, both run to extreme, but I take pieces from both.

[Kaylee]

I'm IFB & a Calvinist, and a member of one of the few churches I know of that is both.

This church didn't used to identify as Calvinist/Reformed, and I still don't know that the majority of church members do. Before, it was very much the stereotypical IFB church, possibly even IFBX (we were part of the Sammy Allen campmeeting crowd, had Phil Kidd preach once or twice a year at revival, and promoted Hyles-Anderson college and the Hyles-esque "bus ministry"). Looking back at sermon notes, I'd say the old pastor was maybe a 3 or 4 point soft Calvinist, but he preached against Calvinism like so many other IFBs do. The hubby & I stopped attending church there because hubby didn't want anything to with any church at the time, the old pastor left several months later, and it took about a year for them to vote in a pastor - I went back to church about a year later, after talking to friends who still attend church there & reading the pastor's blog.

Anyway, the new pastor that came in is a younger guy and a pretty staunch Calvinist (although he's a dispensationalist, which is more typically-fundie that Calvinist). He's taken the church away from a lot of the more extreme IFB "standards" and traditions, and preaches Reformed/Calvinist doctrine form the pulpit and in Sunday school. This caused several families to leave the church, because he was not preaching about the superiority of the KJV, no pants on women, or the evils of drinking and rock music. Some of the other local IFBs criticize our church and our pastor because of this - they see us as compromising or even no longer fundamentalist because he is not preaching those same rules.

It's sort of an interesting change because the church became less legalistic and more Calvinist, which is in contrast to what some people think of Calvinism. I do think a lot of the move towards Calvinism is coming from younger guys who are either fresh out of seminary or discovering some of the more prolific Calvinist bloggers and/or guys like Paul Washer on YouTube. People have been calling this the "Young, Restless, & Reformed" movement for a while, but I wonder how long that many of the people from this wave will stick around (I hope some do, but the drop the clowns like Driscoll & Mahaney and look more into historic Reformed doctrine & practice).

I wonder how a church can still push the IFB-style "soul winning" campaigns & altar calls and fit that into a Reformed theology, and I think that may be part of what drives the SBC split that apple1 also forsees. Our church does some outreach, but it's more social/practical things now like food pantry and blankets/firewood for poorer people in the community in winter, rather than street preaching and handing out tracts door to door like we used to.

[Kitty]

I can't speak for IFB, but my more mainstream Southern Baptist church was a bit Calvinist. It confused the hell out of me.

[formergothardite]

None of the IFB churches I knew of when I was young were Calvinist. I did visit a SBC in my early 20's that was. I never went back.

[princessjo1988]

Abba12 - yes, there are IFB churches here in Australia.

Growing up, my family classed ourselves as 'reformed' baptists (which to me, is basically the same thing)- and we attended churches that reflected that. One of our first churches we attended, did class itself as a variation of IFB. My family among with a few others, actually began it - and many of the families were quiverfull/dresses only etc.

We also attended Grace Bible Church (an offshoot of Grace Community church in the USA (John MacArthur, Grace to You)). Looking back I would definitely class it IFB, at least partially!

So at least in QLD, they do exist.

[punkiepie]

What time frame are you talking about?

I was raised IFB (I'm old) and at that time Calvinism was generally the exception in Baptist churches, or at least in any of the ones my family participated in. (These were a few different IFB churches, since we lived several places due to my father's jobs).

In more recent years, I am hearing more and more of Calvinism in Baptist churches. (I expect this issue to split the SBC within the next few years, actually). I am not really sure what is driving this overall transition, other than pendulum-swinging. I do think that (as discussed in a previous FJ thread) Calvinists like to present themselves as educated and intellectual. There may be a small piece of this that is a reaction to the anti-intellectualism of some of the past's IFB leaders.

Aside: That is a horrible story. My take on it is that the man was just plain mentally unstable. That doesn't make it any less abusive. So sorry you went through that.

Thank you for your comment :)

I am going to be 30 (ugh!) on Saturday and I went to that church from the day I was born until the day I moved out of my parents house at 23. (one year after I graduated from Dougie's alma mater William and Mary) I would say that a lot of the changes happened in trending towards Calvinism in the mid-90's. We got a new pastor in the early 90's- who was the very first new pastor since the church had been created in 1958. But the old 88 year old former preacher continued to go to our church even after he retired, so there weren't a lot of pro-calvin changes happening then. It was when he died that it slowly started emerging.

The weird thing is that the old pastor, God love him, was so IFB, like hellfire all the time, and the new pastor, while still firmly baptist fundie, was not the crazy gnashing of teeth type of preacher. So to the old guard, he was liberal, but to the younger crowd, he was actually more theologically conservative. For example- the old pastor didn't allow Christmas trees in people's homes and if you had one, you better not mention it in front of anyone. The new pastor was perfectly fine with Christmas trees in our houses, he had one, although there were to be no trees at church. The old pastor did not let there be Sunday school past the age of 8 because women couldn't teach "men" and the all Sunday school teachers were woman. The new pastor added classes and a youth group. So while some things changed, the old guard, ie., the deacons and all their minions, remained firmly entrenched in the old ways, which happened to include Arminiasm. And I couldn't stand those people, they were mean spirited and awful and legalistic and without grace- for me, their only redeeming value was that they were very opposed to calvinism.

It wasn't a good time to be in spiritual battle in those days, haha