New podcast from former Quiverfull daughters

[NachosFlandersStyle]

Hannah Ettinger and Kieryn Darkwater now have a weekly podcast discussing aspects of their quiverfull upbringing. I've only listened to two episodes so far but it's pretty good and I'm interested to see what kind of topics and guests they have in the future. https://kitchentablecult.com/

[meowfundiecatz]

I think it's interesting. It seems like they were even more fundie than some of the people we discuss here!

I also found something super interesting. I read the YA fiction book "Devoted" after listening to the first podcast (not knowing Hannah was a contributing source to the writer's ideas) and thought, "oh wow, this girl sounds like that girl from the podcast!" Random, I know.

I also find listening to stories of those who have left really shine a light on the different parents and how exactly each family's "brand" of fundamentalism affected the children.

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 hours ago, meowfundiecatz said:

I also find listening to stories of those who have left really shine a light on the different parents and how exactly each family's "brand" of fundamentalism affected the children.

I agree. I know some people like to say ALL fundie quiverful families are equally destructive but I’ve never believed that. The main components are mostly the same but each family can do things differently. Some are more abusive than others. Some are poorer than others. Some have more outside family support than others. I do see some fundie families as much worse than others. I just can’t see them all equally.

[NakedKnees]

21 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I agree. I know some people like to say ALL fundie quiverful families are equally destructive but I’ve never believed that. The main components are mostly the same but each family can do things differently. Some are more abusive than others. Some are poorer than others. Some have more outside family support than others. I do see some fundie families as much worse than others. I just can’t see them all equally.

That's a good point. I'm normally inclined to say being quiverfull is inherently bad, but hey, if there are family's out there that have the means to take care their kids, don't brainwash them, and overall do good in their and families and in the world, then I suppose I don't have a good reason to shit on their desire to have as many kids as god will allow.

I just started the first episode of the podcast. I wish the sound quality was better but I DEFINITELY like it better than "Defrauded." My friends who know about my weird fundie watching hobby keep suggesting that one to me and I'm like egh... it rubs me the wrong way.

[Palimpsest]

22 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I agree. I know some people like to say ALL fundie quiverful families are equally destructive but I’ve never believed that. 

Really?  Can you point me towards where someone ever said that?  

Obviously there is a sliding scale.  There are the people up to their necks in Quiverfull and Christian Patriarchal beliefs - the leaders and the proselytizers - and there are the followers. 

The whole point of "Biblical Christian Patriarchy" is that "Dad" gets to control the family.  If "Dad" is an ugly person, then the whole family dynamic goes down the tubes.  And some "Dads" are nicer and less controlling than others.  It doesn't mean that they are not damaging.  Think Bates and Bontrager as opposed to Maxwell or Pearl. 

Then there are sheep, the victims, and the children who follow those beliefs because they know no better.   See young Joshie Bontrager.  See the Kellum family, and so on.

I go after the leaders and the proselytizers.  And those damaged by the beliefs of their parents who got sucked into the system and promote it.  

And it doesn't matter whether they have pretty weddings or not - it is the beliefs that matter.

53 minutes ago, NakedKnees said:

That's a good point. I'm normally inclined to say being quiverfull is inherently bad, but hey, if there are family's out there that have the means to take care their kids, don't brainwash them, and overall do good in their and families and in the world, then I suppose I don't have a good reason to shit on their desire to have as many kids as god will allow.

No, it is not a very good point.  It is a point that is missing the dangers of extreme Fundamentalism and Quiverfull as we discuss them on FJ.   

Quiverfull, by definition, is about having as many children as God wills - and ALWAYS leaving birth control up to God.

Quiverfull is for the purpose of raising arrows for Dominion - whether you can support them or not. 

Quiverfull is about reproducing as fast as you can - whether it endangers or kills the mother or not.  Whether the kids starve and are uneducated or not.

Quiverfull is not about having a large family because you want one.  It is about so called Biblical Christian Patriarchy and female submission.

Can we please get this straight,

Edited September 13, 2018 by Palimpsest

[NakedKnees]

I just finished the second episode of the podcast, and I LOVE these two. They're very intelligent and interesting to listen to. I'm really grateful that they're putting their experience out there.

I mostly just want to pop in and encourage podcast fans (and anyone curious) to listen to it.

 

23 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

*snip*

No, it is not a very good point.  It is a point that is missing the dangers of extreme Fundamentalism and Quiverfull as we discuss them on FJ.   

Quiverfull, by definition, is about having as many children as God wills - and ALWAYS leaving birth control up to God.

Quiverfull is for the purpose of raising arrows for Dominion - whether you can support them or not. 

Quiverfull is about reproducing as fast as you can - whether it endangers or kills the mother or not.  Whether the kids starve and are uneducated or not.

Quiverfull is not about having a large family because you want one.  It is about so called Biblical Christian Patriarchy and female submission.

Can we please get this straight,

I don't have any hard examples and I don't know if they exist, but I was definitely using the term "quiverfull" differently than you are in my agreeing with @JermajestyDuggar's post. 

IF a mother can safely keeping birthing children and IF the kids are educated/fed/cared for, then "leaving it up to God" honestly isn't something I would necessarily take issue with. This is something important to me because I feel like it's left out of conversations here sometimes... I'm honestly not in this to control anyone's fertility choices. I know that's not what you're saying, but that's all I really meant to say.

It sounds like you want to remind us that, categorically, the definition of "quiverfull" goes beyond simply trying to reproduce as much as possible, and I appreciate that. Dominionism and biblical Christian patriarchy aren't forgiveable to me, and I apologize for not thinking that through on my previous post.

Tl;dr: "Quiverfull" ≠ "having as many kids as possible, and in some instances having the means to do so harmlessly." 

Edited September 14, 2018 by NakedKnees
grammar

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, NakedKnees said:

Tl;dr: "Quiverfull" ≠ "having as many kids as possible, and in some instances having the means to do so harmlessly." 

Exactly.  Quiverfull is a movement and a subset of Christian Biblical Patriarchy.

People rarely (if ever) identify as Quiverfull.  They just love children.  Even the revolting Nancy Campbell avoids the term (and she preaches Quiverfull All. The. Time.

Mike Farris of HSLDA (and people like DPIAT) preach the militaristic aspect.

Quote

Even here, within these rhetorics, different leaders place the emphasis differently. Nancy Campbell of Above Rubies focuses on the babies as blessings rhetoric and rarely uses rhetoric with a more militant focus. When I read her magazines as a child, her focus was always on mothers and childbearing. In contrast, Michael Farris of the HSLDA focuses heavily on military rhetoric when discussing the importance of having large numbers of children.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2015/09/25/a-quiverfull-of-definitions/

And not all the Fundies we cover are Quiverfull.  The revolting Michael and Debi Pearl are not Quiverfull.  They are as Fundie and as destructive as fuck.

1 hour ago, NakedKnees said:

F a mother can safely keeping birthing children and IF the kids are educated/fed/cared for, then "leaving it up to God" honestly isn't something I would necessarily take issue with. This is something important to me because I feel like it's left out of conversations here sometimes... I'm honestly not in this to control anyone's fertility choices. I know that's not what you're saying, but that's all I really meant to say.

But that is not what we talk about here.  We talk about a dangerous anti-feminist "Christian" Patriarchal Movement that puts baby-making and female submission way above the well-being of mothers and existing children to their detriment.  

Quiverfull is the weird belief that God will never open women's wombs to have more children that the family can take care of properly.  It ignores the risks, results n dead mothers, and gives us these mega-families that can barely survive on a single income.

These days people on FJ seem to focus on the TV Families and the middle class families who have sparkly carefully curated bogs.  The reality is not nearly as pretty.  

It is actually really awful.  Just ask Cari or Lydia of Purple's families.  They are far more representative of Quiverfull ideologies run amuck.  

 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

I don’t think God gives a flying fuck how many kids a couple have because ......free will.

[Marly]

I'm listening to their podcast on courtship right now, and it's really interesting. One of them tells how their parents were initially proponents of betrothal (arranged marriage kind of) instead of courtship. That really blew my mind. 
They also explain how courtship and betrothal are based on an incorrect understanding of history. Really very interesting!
Have these people and their families been discussed on FJ before? 

[NachosFlandersStyle]

19 hours ago, Marly said:

Have these people and their families been discussed on FJ before? 

I don't think either of their families have a big web presence, but both Kieryn and Hannah (used to?) have blogs about leaving the movement, which I think have been sporadically discussed.

[sleepy_doggos]

I don't think either of their families have a big web presence, but both Kieryn and Hannah (used to?) have blogs about leaving the movement, which I think have been sporadically discussed.

I checked out Hannah's blog (haven't looked at Kieryn's yet, is it linked somewhere?) and am enjoying the articles so far. I believe she was still a christian at the time she wrote the ones I have read so far.
Anyhow, I am enjoying the podcast, so thanks to the OP! I've learned more about the political mobilization of the conservative right in two episodes than I've ever come across before.
And now I want to read Libby Anne's breakdown of James Dobson's books. I discussed my parents' use of them with my therapist and she said Dobson has a bad relationship with all of his adult children, so I want to go back and learn how NOT to relate to a child.

[SusanAtTheLastBattle]

Kieryn has been through a lot of life changes (including coming out as transgender; Kieryn uses they/them pronouns). Their blog, Bridging the Gap, has changed url's, but goes back continuously to early pieces on fleeing a quiverful family via marriage. There are links to the older material on the about page.

(I really enjoy reading Kieryn's work... I also have a trans sibling who lives in the Bay Area, and I care a lot about the affordable housing issues Kieryn organizes on, so their recent writing is interesting to me too)

 

[hoipolloi]

On 9/13/2018 at 12:50 PM, Palimpsest said:

Obviously there is a sliding scale.  There are the people up to their necks in Quiverfull and Christian Patriarchal beliefs - the leaders and the proselytizers - and there are the followers. 

And then there are the people -- like, oh say, Jennie Chancey -- who used to be Quiverfull until they never were!

Quote

I was inspired to have a big family by the book Cheaper by the Dozen, written by the second eldest of 12 children who grew up in the 1920s and 1930s in the States. 

 

[woonaluna]

Oh hey, my friends! I've been listening and tweeting each episode as I go, I'm a few episodes behind. 

[MamaJunebug]

This confirms every fear I had. And to think, I fretted about being called a “conspiracy theorist.”

 

Not for the faint-hearted

Edited September 26, 2018 by MamaJunebug

[FleeJanaFree]

I'm enjoying this podcast, regardless of the sound quality. I liked (i think episode ten) when they went into their reasons to why it's harmful to speculate about teenager's sexuality preferences. I know we've talked about it a lot on FJ, it was just more clear for me in their explanation . (Basically, it humiliates the parents to be judged on not raising their kids correctly, and they punish their kids for it, which isolates the kids even more and make sure it harder for them to get help). 

[elf1590]

This thread had apparently been hidden I just found it and downloaded the first episode to see what it's all about. Anybody still listening?