Pope Francis say women will never be ordained

[Cleopatra7]

Nothing surprising here to me, but anyone who thinks Francis is some kind of "progressive" needs to rethink their position:

Quote

He cited the apostolic letter, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, written in 1994 by Pope John Paul II, who has since been canonized. The letter said that ordaining women was not possible because Jesus chose only men as his apostles.

“It was given by St. John Paul II, and this remains,” Francis said.

“Really?” the Swedish journalist asked. “Never?”

“If we read carefully the declaration made by St. John Paul II, it goes in this direction,” Francis replied. “But women can do many other things better than men,” he added, noting that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is of great importance in the church’s theology and spirituality.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/02/world/europe/pope-francis-women-priests.html?em_pos=large&emc=edit_nn_20161102&nl=morning-briefing&nlid=57825966&_r=0&referer=

As the article indicates, I think Francis is throwing a bone to disaffected conservatives by this move. It changes nothing, but makes him look like a hardcore defender of tradition in the face of "wishy washy Protestants." The reasoning Francis cites is John Paul II, but I believe the real reason that women can never be priests stems from Aquinas by way of Aristotle calling women "mutilated men" who can't become "other Christs" in the Mass, which is found in the third part of the Summa. Of course, you can't say that in the public square, so instead we.get the circular reasoning of how women were never ordained in the past and therefore can't be ordained in the future.

[kpmom]

Coincidentally, that's when I plan on going back to the Catholic Church.  Never.
 

[Four is Enough]

I had high hopes for this pope. But you can't change everything overnight, I suppose. 

[kpmom]

8 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

I had high hopes for this pope. But you can't change everything overnight, I suppose. 

Or even in 2000+ years apparently.

[ophelia]

3 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Nothing surprising here to me, but anyone who thinks Francis is some kind of "progressive" needs to rethink their position:

My mother always insists on how liberal he is and how much she likes him and this always makes me really mad. And we are not even Catholics.

[Bad Wolf]

That's why we have a lot of "recovering catholics" in our episcopal church, including the male priest. We also have a woman priest. 

[sea_gale]

You can't be priests. But women are so much better than men at childrearing and housework blah blah Marian sophistry blah. Heard it. Get tae fuck.

[EmmieJ]

2 hours ago, kpmom said:

Coincidentally, that's when I plan on going back to the Catholic Church.  Never.
 

Haw!  My thought exactly.  I do think this current pope is better than some of his predecessors, but no way will I ever be part of any group that thinks women are not equal to men.  Never, never, never.  Left the Catholic Church many years ago and have never once regretted that decision or had any desire to return.  So thanks Pope! for showing me once again that I made the right decision.

[elliha]

I just wonder if meeting our archbishop (The Swedish Church) Antje Jackelen made him declare this with such emphasis. It must be hard to know our highest religious authority is a both a woman and a lesbian. 

[nausicaa]

7 minutes ago, elliha said:

I just wonder if meeting our archbishop (The Swedish Church) Antje Jackelen made him declare this with such emphasis. It must be hard to know our highest religious authority is a both a woman and a lesbian. 

Dang Sweden, how did you become so badass? 

[anjulibai]

This isn't surprising given the Church's general teaching. It also doesn't change my overall good opinion of the pope - I don't expect him to make radical changes, but do see him as laying the groundwork for change over time. 

What I'm really curious about is when will the commission on women being deacons present their findings. I suspect there might be some changes made there, but we'll see. 

[LadyCrow1313]

One of the greatest mysteries of all time: when will the Catholic Church get it through their thick heads that women are equal to men?

 

2 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I had high hopes for this pope. But you can't change everything overnight, I suppose. 

And you're right, @Four is Enough. I, too, had (keyword: HAD) high hopes for this pope.

[elliha]

https://www.thelocal.se/20161103/swedish-archbishop-popes-all-male-environment-lacks-balance

Our archbishop about the pope's declaration.

I read the Swedish article too and she comes across as slightly more positive and seeing a possibility for change regarding this in that article.

I am not too sure that I believe we will see female catholic priests in our life time but at sometime in the future I think it will happen. I am more hopeful that they might allow male priests to marry though.  

[Cleopatra7]

Francis throws some major shade on "strong Swedish women":

Quote

I read about this area's history. And saw that there was a queen who was widowed three times and I thought 'this woman is strong',” he told a reporter from Swedish public broadcaster SVT.

“I was then told 'Swedish women are very strong, very talented. Perhaps that's why some Swedish men look for a woman from other nationalities'," he joked, adding: "I don't know if that's true."

 

https://www.thelocal.se/20161102/pope-why-swedish-men-look-for-non-swedish-women

[laPapessaGiovanna]

On 2/11/2016 at 6:12 PM, anjulibai said:

What I'm really curious about is when will the commission on women being deacons present their findings. I suspect there might be some changes made there, but we'll see. 

I bet it will end lije the commission on family. 2 years of talks, conclusions: crickets!

51 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Francis throws some major shade on "strong Swedish women":

 

https://www.thelocal.se/20161102/pope-why-swedish-men-look-for-non-swedish-women

This is the reason for imho it'' absurd to have as supreme spiritual authority a male, 80 yo, celibate priest whose life experience is limited to being a member of the powerful clerical hierarchy his whole life, with only an extremely partial knowledge of average people's life. He may not have noticed that you can't menace women with spinsterhood anymore. Nor that it is increasingly socially acceptable and even expected that clever and strong men appreciate an equal relationship with clever and strong women. Feeling thretened by strong women isn't a testament to the strength of masculinity. 

[December]

On 11/2/2016 at 7:53 AM, ophelia said:

My mother always insists on how liberal he is and how much she likes him and this always makes me really mad. And we are not even Catholics.

 

It's all relative. Compared to the last pope, this one is very liberal in many respects. Compared to other denominations' leaders, not so much. When your starting point is very conservative, any swing to the left (even if it's just towards plain old conservative) sounds much more radical than a progressive church inching a bit more to the left. 

[faraway]

Exactly, Benedict was so unapproachable and cold, Francis seems like a breath of fresh air in comparison.

I personally don't get why anyone would even want to do this (catholic priesthood) to themselves. But I did read an article about a girl who studied theology at my uni and was really good at it and wants to become a catholic priest. Church people suddenly turned on her when she expressed that wish. I just wish she could get her dreamjob just like everyone else.

[Cleopatra7]

5 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I bet it will end lije the commission on family. 2 years of talks, conclusions: crickets!

This is the reason for imho it'' absurd to have as supreme spiritual authority a male, 80 yo, celibate priest whose life experience is limited to being a member of the powerful clerical hierarchy his whole life, with only an extremely partial knowledge of average people's life. He may not have noticed that you can't menace women with spinsterhood anymore. Nor that it is increasingly socially acceptable and even expected that clever and strong men appreciate an equal relationship with clever and strong women. Feeling thretened by strong women isn't a testament to the strength of masculinity. 

I asked on a supposedly "liberal" Catholic blog (liberal compared to Catholic Answers Forum, anyway) why we should take the ruminations of Aquinas about what women are supposedly like seriously when the only women he probably ever had contact with were his mother and his sisters, and even that minimal distaff contact would have ended once he entered the Dominican novitiate. I was told if I had a problem with Aquinas, I should take it up with god, which is essentially conceding the argument as far as I'm concerned. On a related note, Augustine of Hippo famously said in "The Literal Interpretation of Genesis" that Adam would have been better off if god created his a male friend to be a peer, rather than Eve, who was only good for having babies:

Quote

I don't see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation. If woman is not given to man for help in bearing children, for what help could she be? To till the earth together? If help were needed for that, man would have been a better help for man. The same goes for comfort in solitude. How much more pleasure is it for life and conversation when two friends live together than when a man and a woman cohabitate?

 

[Grimalkin]

On November 2, 2016 at 9:53 AM, ophelia said:

My mother always insists on how liberal he is and how much she likes him and this always makes me really mad. And we are not even Catholics.

    I wouldn't call him liberal. He is still Catholic. I don't think I ever expected him to change major doctrine. I do think he is a breath of fresh air. I think he shows real compassion for people.I am always surprised when people expect him to stop being Catholic. Honestly, I think he would rather not be pope and just spend his days working with the poor.

@Cleopatra7I have heard that same argument about Aquinas. My Philosophy professor also felt the churches ideas about homosexuals came from Aquinas. I never got a chance to ask him more about it.

    While I think it is good to have structure and leadership in such a massive organization, I agree that a lot of things about the Pope sound ridiculous today.

     This may be filed under unpopular opinions, but I do like the Pope and think he has a lot of good things to say. Just because I like him does not mean I agree with everything he says. I can't think of anybody I always agree with.

[Foudeb]

I know several non-Swedish men who chose to go to Sweden for their Erasmus "studying abroad" year on the sole grounds that Swedish women are said to be bold enough to ask the men they fancy out rather than waiting to be asked out. Strong and clever = sexy.

It would be nice if Francis knew that, but let's not expect too much of a 70 yo virgin who believes the ideal woman is both a mother and a virgin.

[nausicaa]

16 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

This is the reason for imho it'' absurd to have as supreme spiritual authority a male, 80 yo, celibate priest whose life experience is limited to being a member of the powerful clerical hierarchy his whole life, with only an extremely partial knowledge of average people's life. He may not have noticed that you can't menace women with spinsterhood anymore. Nor that it is increasingly socially acceptable and even expected that clever and strong men appreciate an equal relationship with clever and strong women. Feeling thretened by strong women isn't a testament to the strength of masculinity. 

One of the things i'm most surprised at now that I go to an Episcopal church is that the clergy seem so much more, I don't quite know the word, maybe "real" in a way? Most are married and have children, and if they don't they've at least dated, and they've had other careers. They just seem much more in the world and relatable. Not to mention that at least half are women.

I suppose I can see the appeal of having clergy who seem to transcend the daily minutiae of life, but it does seem to pose a problem when things like marriage counseling and women's rights come up.

[Clementine]

On 2016-11-02 at 6:02 PM, elliha said:

I just wonder if meeting our archbishop (The Swedish Church) Antje Jackelen made him declare this with such emphasis. It must be hard to know our highest religious authority is a both a woman and a lesbian. 

Antje Jackelén is not a lesbian, she is married to a man. Maybe you think about Eva Brunne, the bishop of Stockholm. She is married to a woman and they have a son.

Edit: Apparently Brunne and her wife have applied for a divorce in October.

I can't say that I think that Brunne or Jackelén have contributed to the CoS in a positive way and nor do I think that they behave in a Christian way. There is a mass exodus of people from the CoS right now and Jackelén has a big part in it. They are both seen as highly controversial (not because of their gender or sexual orientation) by both members of CoS who are believers and by members who are church members because of tradition.
I personally despise both of them for their unwillingness to stand up for Christians who are persecuted and killed because of their faith in other countries, something that is a very relevant issue today when there is a genocide going on against Christians in the Middle East. They have also participated in, or allowed close coworkers to participate in smear campaigns and bullying against the Christians who do stand up for their brothers and sisters. Really vile human beings those two and fine examples of what happens when you allow a church to become politicized.

I personally thought it was wonderful with a Christian who is willing to stand up to what he believes in, like the Pope did, even if it doesn't suit the current views in society.

[elliha]

@Clementine Sorry for the mix up about Antje being a lesbian. It might be that I mixed up the two.

 

[Cleopatra7]

13 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

    I wouldn't call him liberal. He is still Catholic. I don't think I ever expected him to change major doctrine. I do think he is a breath of fresh air. I think he shows real compassion for people.I am always surprised when people expect him to stop being Catholic. Honestly, I think he would rather not be pope and just spend his days working with the poor.

@Cleopatra7I have heard that same argument about Aquinas. My Philosophy professor also felt the churches ideas about homosexuals came from Aquinas. I never got a chance to ask him more about it.

    While I think it is good to have structure and leadership in such a massive organization, I agree that a lot of things about the Pope sound ridiculous today.

     This may be filed under unpopular opinions, but I do like the Pope and think he has a lot of good things to say. Just because I like him does not mean I agree with everything he says. I can't think of anybody I always agree with.

This is probably an even less popular opinion, but if I had the option of meeting Francis or meeting Benedict XVI, I'd choose the latter. Benedict may not bot warm and cuddly, but I'd enjoy hashing theology and philosophy out with him, even if we wouldn't agree on anything.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

6 hours ago, Clementine said:

I personally despise both of them for their unwillingness to stand up for Christians who are persecuted and killed because of their faith in other countries, something that is a very relevant issue today when there is a genocide going on against Christians in the Middle East. They have also participated in, or allowed close coworkers to participate in smear campaigns and bullying against the Christians who do stand up for their brothers and sisters. Really vile human beings those two and fine examples of what happens when you allow a church to become politicized.

I personally thought it was wonderful with a Christian who is willing to stand up to what he believes in, like the Pope did, even if it doesn't suit the current views in society.

Because Pope Francis's RCC isn't politicised at all *rolls eyes*. They didn't just back the (luckily failed) attempt to restore abortion as a crime in Poland, they didn't succeed to derail the proposed law on homosexual marriages in Italy and transform it in lesser "civil partnerships" and veto the possibility for same sex couples to adopt kids, they don't teach Catholic Catechism in public kindergarten...the list is much longer of course. 

From your posting history I'd bet that those two's worst crime is not condemning all Muslims of the world as terrorists or wanting to offer asylum to Muslim refugees or something like that. Just in case you didn't know pope Francis is very very pro helping refugees AND economical migrants, EVEN those brownish Muslims, as much as possible.