Gothardism & Molestation "Moral Impurity in the Home" MERGE

[jinseng]

A republished article by recovering grace highlighting how Gothard requires ATI families to manage 'moral impurity' in the home:

 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2015/05/gracenote/

 

It is worth noting that ex-ATI students have already started to point out that the 'training program' Josh was sent to was run by IBLP. Hence, IBLP must have known about the molestations and yet did not report it to the police... despite the fact the police station was quite literally on the ground floor of the Little Rock training centre. IBLP willingly worked with Jim Bob and Michelle to cover up this disgusting crime.

[waterandrocks]

It is so terribly disturbing to me that boys would be taught not to change baby girls' diapers because they might have sexual thoughts. I don't even know where to start. It's so twisted that boys who would never act sexually towards small children would be taught that they just might do so because they're male. I'm equally horrified by the thought of little girls being told to immediately dress after bathing so they don't tempt their brothers! I have so many more comments that I just can't even put into words...

[fundiefan]

The fundie obsession with sex breeds behavior. In a healthy environment, a normal growing kid learns and is educated. In fundie land, they are suppressed, ignored, demonized and taught to pretend.

It's wrong.

[CloakNDagger]

The fundie obsession with sex breeds behavior. In a healthy environment, a normal growing kid learns and is educated. In fundie land, they are suppressed, ignored, demonized and taught to pretend.

It's wrong.

And it's really, really obvious with all of the need for "safeguards" like Covenant Eyes on computers, phones, etc... which really aren't solving the actual problems, just treating the symptoms caused by root issues. Just like at Vision Forum and other places.

[VapingindaCity]

I thought mom took care of the north ends and dad takes cares of the south end? Thats what Anna said when taking care of babies, that's how JM & michelle did it so did them... I really doubt JB changed any diapers, especially after the older girls got old enough to be sister/mothers

Can we start a new thread about how maybe Josh was molested himself? Im new and either cant figure it out or not allowed to do it..

anyways I did a college paper on why kids show behavior like that and often its cuz they r molested. . I honestly could see it as a posibly, since those kids were proly left alone with lots of Fundies and we know how often sexual abuse is a problem. ..

didnt it 1st start with porn and masturbation? not making an excuse for josh, but I think theres losts we dont know...

the only reason to keep josh in the home is to keep pesky reporters at bay, lest they not give the apearance of the perfect Christian family. ..I'm really surprised they chose to keep him at home, but hey greed isnt just a secular problem. Also moral impurity is cured by jesus so NBD

[VapingindaCity]

http://gawker.com/the-duggar-homeschool ... 1706406324

Gawker picked up the story, made sure to make the Gothard connection

[GenerationCedarchip]

And it's really, really obvious with all of the need for "safeguards" like Covenant Eyes on computers, phones, etc... which really aren't solving the actual problems, just treating the symptoms caused by root issues. Just like at Vision Forum and other places.

Yes. This.

Having safeguards such as joint email accounts or internet trackers foisted on us under the guise of "accountability" was one of the early things I started questioning in my old church. "Accountability " seems to be one of those buzzwords that creeps into everything in some of the more legalistic circles I've know and as part of it, there was a real emphasis on talking over all of your impure thoughts with an "accountability partner." Not so much to get at the root issues, but more as an informal spy network to see what symptoms were out there in the prayer circle.

[eh02]

Maybe we shouldn't be surprised that they sexualize children's, even babies' bodies and then their teenager molests a child. :| I mean, as a parent, what exactly ARE you suggesting when you tell a child whose sexuality is still developing that they can't be trusted to change a diaper? It implies that there is something sexual there that is mysterious and forbidden. It is very, very abnormal to impose adult sexual standards on children.

Most kids would never even THINK to connect changing a diaper to anything remotely related to sex.

On a weird/somewhat related note - I was really surprised that when Josie had the seizure that they showed her with her shirt off. Not that *I* think there is anything wrong with a 5 year old with her shirt off, but coming from the Duggars, I was definitely surprised.

[jingerdoe]

I've been seeing variants of this discussion in a few threads, and wanted to pull them together here. There are those of us who think Josh is a pedophile, those (mostly not of us) who think Josh is an innocent once-kid who made a mistake, and those who are walking a line that looks like the middle of the road but is actually something completely unrelated to those two things.

This is the best article I've found that articulates that position.

http: //fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-duggars-how-fundamentalisms.html

[klynn]

I'm not sure I'd categorize him as a pedophile. Only based on his upbringing. I know others may disagree, and that's ok, but I think he's more of an oppourtunistic (sp) offender. In that, he took advantage of what he could, when he could.

[FreeJesusFromFundies]

I'm not sure I'd categorize him as a pedophile. Only based on his upbringing. I know others may disagree, and that's ok, but I think he's more of an oppourtunistic (sp) offender. In that, he took advantage of what he could, when he could.

Agreed.

Plus, these teachings say that if you get horny, you're more likely to commit violent and deviant acts. Keep telling a kid that and it's going to happen.

[DuggaredOut]

Agreed.

Plus, these teachings say that if you get horny, you're more likely to commit violent and deviant acts. Keep telling a kid that and it's going to happen.

I don't know about that. They're telling all the boys the same thing. Is it inevitable that all the boys will molest their sisters? I grew up in a Baptist church, and premarital sex was a big no-no, as were other forms of sexual expression. Still, I never knew of any boys in the church accused of sexually abusing their little sisters or anyone else. I can understand how a lack of sexual education would make a boy curious enough to try, say, peeking at his sister once in the bathroom to see what a naked girl looks like. But this wasn't once or twice, and it wasn't just peeking. It also wasn't just focused on the older girls, so curiosity about what a sexually mature female body looks like wasn't the only motive here.

I'm not saying at all that Gothardism didn't provide fertile ground for Josh's inclinations in that direction. I think it did. But I don't think the sexual repression aspect of it was necessarily the only or deciding factor. There are other aspects of Gothardism--the complete and total objectification of women and denial of their bodily autonomy--that I think are more responsible for promoting actual sexual assault. And I also think human behavior is a product of complex interactions between the individual and his environment. So, in other words, a different kid raised in those same beliefs could turn out very differently and be shocked that anyone would even think of laying a finger on his sister.

That article linked above is excellent, by the way!

[MisUndrstd]

I totally get what DuggaredOut is saying. I think in this situation it was the perfect fundie storm, a lot of factors lined up just right to make Josh do this. No one can say that it is Gothardism that made Josh do this.. was it a factor... likely. But in cases like this it happens in all backgrounds, cultures, religions, etc... I almost wonder if it is something biological combined with the environment that makes sexual predators what they are. Maybe a kid like Josh who isn't wired right to begin with is raised in a home with a bloated sense of self, taught that men are the keepers of women and sexually repressed by the parents who themselves openly talk about sex and grope on each other. I can definitely see how this could happen. I can also see how other scenarios can entice a kid to act on impulses they shouldn't and know they shouldn't. So understandably this is a good example of nature vs. nurture and how the combination of the two can either make for a great outcome or can make a Josh happen when raising children.

[gemma]

For those who would not classify him as a pedophile, given that he's a married man, should we assume we don't need to monitor his children?

I, personally, call anyone who is touching youngsters inappropriately, a pedophile. It's a sexual violation and it's not like he did it once. There is at least some sexual attraction to children evident. Actually, we don't even really know the extent of it.

[formergothardite]

For those who would not classify him as a pedophile, given that he's a married man, should we assume we don't need to monitor his children?

I, personally, call anyone who is touching youngsters inappropriately, a pedophile. It's a sexual violation and it's not like he did it once. There is at least some sexual attraction to children evident. Actually, we don't even really know the extent of it.

IMO Josh has some serious underlying issues that needed to be treated when he was young, but the way he was raised either created these issues, made them worse, and for sure created a situation in where he was denied help. Just the entire family dynamic of the Duggar household was pretty abusive and an awful way to be raised, so to me, having been in the circles, it just makes sense that the belief system played a huge part in this. He might have done that even if he wasn't raised like that, but being raised in such a repressive, abusive system could not have helped any problems he had. This isn't an isolated incident, ATI is rampant with abuse and abuse being covered up.

I'm not trying to pick on you, I am genuinely curious, but before this came out, you knew all the abuse stories coming out of ATI/IBLP and it didn't seem to bother you, has this changed your opinion at all? Do you still feel like you share a lot of the same beliefs with the Duggars?

[VelociRapture]

For those who would not classify him as a pedophile, given that he's a married man, should we assume we don't need to monitor his children?

I, personally, call anyone who is touching youngsters inappropriately, a pedophile. It's a sexual violation and it's not like he did it once. There is at least some sexual attraction to children evident. Actually, we don't even really know the extent of it.

I would say this is a tough call to make. I don't think anyone here is qualified to diagnose him as a pedophile or not - that can only be done by a licensed Professional who has a history of counseling him on that topic.

The fact that he targeted young girls certainly could suggest that he has a sexual preference for that. . . but it could also indicate that he was simply going with the easiest targets at the TTH. Its not like he was offered the opportunity to go to school or go into the real world like other kids - he was raised more isolated than other Americans are and had immediate access to only a handful of girls.

That said, knowing that he did what he did, I would hope that Anna (and other family members) would be keeping a rather close eye on the kids - I don't know if they would because they seem to think Josh was cured because Jesus. Legally, I don't know whether CPS or Law Enforcement can get involved with monitoring them unless a complaint is made about Josh harming his children or his underage siblings.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I would say this is a tough call to make. I don't think anyone here is qualified to diagnose him as a pedophile or not - that can only be done by a licensed Professional who has a history of counseling him on that topic.

The fact that he targeted young girls certainly could suggest that he has a sexual preference for that. . . but it could also indicate that he was simply going with the easiest targets at the TTH. Its not like he was offered the opportunity to go to school or go into the real world like other kids - he was raised more isolated than other Americans are and had immediate access to only a handful of girls.

That said, knowing that he did what he did, I would hope that Anna (and other family members) would be keeping a rather close eye on the kids - I don't know if they would because they seem to think Josh was cured because Jesus. Legally, I don't know whether CPS or Law Enforcement can get involved with monitoring them unless a complaint is made about Josh harming his children or his underage siblings.

Agreed.

A pedophile is someone whose primary sexual attraction is to young children. They may or may not act on this attraction.

A child molester is someone who molests children, period. The term is defined by their actions, regardless of exact motivation. Some target children because they primarily get off on children. Some target children because they are more available and vulnerable. Either way, it's sick and harmful to the children involved.

I have no idea whether Josh is actually a pedophile or not. At the time of his abusive actions, he didn't really have access to other sexual outlets so it's not clear that he preferred children over adults. I'm not sure that it really matters - the harm is the same.

[quiversR4hunting]

I have a question for a former ati - what does Gothard say about dreams? Are people supposed to control their dreams? If you sin in your dreams do you have confess it?

I have VERY vivid dreams. I have night terrors that I have learned how to 'control' - meaning I can sometimes in the dream remind myself it's just a dream and it's just like a movie, it can't hurt me. On the other hand that means I also have very vivid sexual dreams and of course I want those to go on forever :D . So would I be in the prayer closet forever?

[2xx1xy1JD]

I saw the Gawker article quoting this one, and found it beyond disturbing. If the Duggars had read this (which is quite possible since it is ATI material), it would explain a lot. If they do any interviews, someone should explicitly ask them about this.

To recap: These "educational materials" never once mention the word consent. There is no discussion of how consensual and non-consensual sex are different, or how one is more moral than the other. There is no discussion at all of how children are incapable of consent. There is no discussion at all of how sexual activity from someone older, particularly a trusted family member, is inherently harmful to the child. There is absolutely no discussion of the lifelong consequences and issues that the abused child may face. There is no discussion of what it means to abuse someone's trust. In other words....there is no discussion at all of the most important issues and of the things that are most wrong.

Instead, it's all about how the abuser can pass blame onto his parents and the tiny victims. The diaper part was just WTF. Seriously, if you cannot cope with changing a diaper, "visual" man or not, you can't live a normal life on this planet. Changing diapers does not cause sexual abuse. Toddlers running naked as tots tend to do, does not cause sexual abuse. Pictures of naked adult women does not cause sexual abuse. Being lazy and complaining about chores does not cause sexual abuse. A brother giving a normal hug to a sister or picking up a small child does not cause sexual abuse. Allowing an older brother with a known history of child sexual abuse to remain in the home with access to his victims, however, could allow further sexual abuse.

[apandaaries]

I saw the Gawker article quoting this one, and found it beyond disturbing. If the Duggars had read this (which is quite possible since it is ATI material), it would explain a lot. If they do any interviews, someone should explicitly ask them about this.

To recap: These "educational materials" never once mention the word consent. There is no discussion of how consensual and non-consensual sex are different, or how one is more moral than the other. There is no discussion at all of how children are incapable of consent. There is no discussion at all of how sexual activity from someone older, particularly a trusted family member, is inherently harmful to the child. There is absolutely no discussion of the lifelong consequences and issues that the abused child may face. There is no discussion of what it means to abuse someone's trust. In other words....there is no discussion at all of the most important issues and of the things that are most wrong.

Instead, it's all about how the abuser can pass blame onto his parents and the tiny victims. The diaper part was just WTF. Seriously, if you cannot cope with changing a diaper, "visual" man or not, you can't live a normal life on this planet. Changing diapers does not cause sexual abuse. Toddlers running naked as tots tend to do, does not cause sexual abuse. Pictures of naked adult women does not cause sexual abuse. Being lazy and complaining about chores does not cause sexual abuse. A brother giving a normal hug to a sister or picking up a small child does not cause sexual abuse. Allowing an older brother with a known history of child sexual abuse to remain in the home with access to his victims, however, could allow further sexual abuse.

These are all really good points. The concept of consent doesn't appear anywhere in those materials.

For those interested in the consent/godliness and Dunham/Duggar discussions, Jezebel had an interesting article yesterday: http://jezebel.com/its-easy-to-defend-a ... 1707011785

[2xx1xy1JD]

Libby Anne's piece on the two boxes of what is allowed vs. forbidden was excellent and very clear. We see Josh's actions as wrong, because he did things that lacked consent, on people who lacked the ability to consent, and he violated his position of trust. It's not the same thing as viewing pornography or whacking off or kissing before being engaged.

I'm a bit iffy on the Dunham issue, just because there was some stuff that continued past age 7 and because putting it in a book seems a bit like exploitation. Lena was the one who used the term "sexual predator", even if she was joking. I don't think you can write all that stuff and not expect that somebody, somewhere will have a reaction.

[TrueRebel1]

Has anyone brought up the freakish similarities between the IBLP publication "Lessons From Moral Failures in a Family" and the Josh Duggar situation?

Recovering Grace provides a pdf of the publication, as well as an analysis of how IBLP encourages blaming the victim in situations of incest/molestation/abuse. Big surprise, right?

The fact that IBLP had a specific publication regarding incest (and we assume, with a real-life family sharing their story), makes me wonder how common it was/is in IBLP families.

recoveringgrace.org/2015/05/gracenote/

[princessmahina]

Has anyone brought up the freakish similarities between the IBLP publication "Lessons From Moral Failures in a Family" and the Josh Duggar situation?

Recovering Grace provides a pdf of the publication, as well as an analysis of how IBLP encourages blaming the victim in situations of incest/molestation/abuse. Big surprise, right?

The fact that IBLP had a specific publication regarding incest (and we assume, with a real-life family sharing their story), makes me wonder how common it was/is in IBLP families.

recoveringgrace.org/2015/05/gracenote/

From what other posters more familiar with this than me have stated, it seems like its unnervingly prevalent. It shouldn't come as a surprise though- with all the repression, sheltering/isolation, and focus on sex, it almost seems inevitable.

[1st wiccan fundie]

From what I read and researched abuse including sexual is pretty widespread in the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist culture. As well ad the victim shaming, victim blaming situations. And the in church confessions both by the perpetrators and the victims. All of which was out there before any Duggar scandal or possible, potential links and similarities to Josh. I've seen some decent news specials on it through the years, here and there. Can't remember any specific names but I know some were on Youtube. I definitely seen info on actual publications on how the church or parents should handle it if it occurs, just like the ones that are surfacing that Gothard and such printed . Same type of disgusting guidance that is the absolute opposite of how it should be dealt with by most other human beings standards.

[Toothfairy]

Like I said ATI is an abuser and pedophiles dream. They don't have to take responsibility for their actions. All they have to do is praise Jesus and ask for forgiveness. Does anyone know how Gothard handles women offenders? What if a woman sexually abuses a a boy or girl?