Do you feel sorry for the sons as much as the daughters?

[terranova]

I often find myself feeling sorry for the sons who are stuck in fundieism, almost as much as I feel for the daughters.

Perhaps if Josh Duggar had had a different childhood he would not have turned out to be a molester. Perhaps if other men/boys we snark on had had more loving, open childhoods they would not become so emotionally stunted as adults.

Yes, the women and girls are trapped, but so are some of the men and the boys. Does anyone else feel this way?

[SPHASH]

Yes. The boys are pressured to support a wife and eleventy kids on a meager salary due to them have a meager education at best.

[Sundaymorning]

No, while I do feel sorry for them, the sons have it better. They are not required to act as sister-moms and once they are out of the house, they can live their own lives, and make their own rules as the head of their family.

[nellautumngirl]

What if the boys are good with children and are never encouraged to pursue that just because they are boys? Josiah and Jedediah for example. Being head of a household may just be responsibility they dread, especially since they don't have much work experience so far. It's not fair to the boys either, what teenage boy is going to volunteer to do heavy household work on a regular basis when everyone including the parents tell him girls are much better for the task? The girls work too much and the boys too little, both damaging imo.

[Foudeb]

Not really. If Josh had been raised outside of the patriarchy he probably wouldn't have done it. Or would have been caught and punished earlier. Scratch that, he would have been punished full stop.

But he'd still be a creep. Plenty of males raised in cults aren't abusers. He's got something not right to him. It just so happened that their cult enabled him to do maximum damage for a very long time. If it weren't for the duggars high profile he might never have been found out.

So no - it's the girls in that cult who are robbed of their agency that ought to be pitied more.

[Jana814]

No, while I do feel sorry for them, the sons have it better. They are not required to act as sister-moms and once they are out of the house, they can live their own lives, and make their own rules as the head of their family.

Agree!!

[browngrl]

I do feel sorry for the boys in this situation. I suspect that more than one brother was upset about what happened to their sisters and yet had not the words or knowledge or ability to help resolve the situation. Especially with the younger boys I suspect that all they saw was their sister's fear and unhappiness and the general tension in the house. They would not have had the tools to deal with this - except perhaps by acting out or misbehaving. I suspect that as soon as JB and M decided that it was over, everyone had to shut up and smile. However, secrets like this are like a cancer - they hurt everyone they touch. I am not implying that the girls did not suffer more only that the boys suffered too.

I also think their patriarchal religion fosters (and even seems to condone) misogyny. In their world a woman is little more than a possession who is there to submit to their headship and they blame a woman's clothes or actions for abuse/rape. Theirs is a culture that represses all sexuality until the magical day of marriage. They believe a woman's consent to her headship is always implied. They advise girls to start treating their brothers as future headships from a very young age. In their world, begging God for forgiveness is sufficient to address a crime such as Josh's. So yes Josh was the perpetrator but if you want to look at the roots of the problem look no farther than their religious beliefs.

[MalteseBaby]

No, I do not. Because they are " the future leaders of fundyism".

Boys are seen as more valuable within their family structure, IMO.

They are the ones who bring in extra money with lawn service, paper routes, whatever else fundy boys do. They are the ones who will carry on the family name with their future children. Not the girls when they marry.

I think girls are seen as " an expense" from the day they are born. The parents know they have a burden and responsibility for a wedding some day. And possibly a liability because they are the ones who could possibly show the signs of "impurity" with an unmarried pregnancy. I think girls bear a fundy family's worst stigmas and fears. The sons are exempt in a patriarchal system.

[salex]

Well, after reading about Papa Pilgrim, the boys didn't get much better than the girls. Not (stated) that they were sexually molested by "Papa" but they were horribly physically abused and beaten bloody, frozen outside and starved for punishment over the years and under housed, and unschooled and illiterated in their 20s. I expect similar has gone on with many others we don't hear about, and that is what is suspected with the Kentucky kids.

While the boys are to be little patriarchs, the truly patriarchal groups tend to want them to obey their own fathers until their fathers are dead (Maxwell, various on the Reconstructionist sites) and they don't always get too much say in who they marry..and who they can never divorce.

Many of the families fail to teach educate them well enough to have a truly successful business of their own but also fail to educate them well enough to find high paying jobs and tend to expect them to be sole supporters of an ever growing family. Apparently, their faith (or family actions/methods) are not able to face comparison to the lives/faith of non fundies, so college and regular jobs that might expose them to people who believe differently are discouraged.

And we mustn't forget, they too are blanket trained until their spirit is broken, something that some writers suggest may sometimes take more effort than with girls--so they are still beaten as babies. They may not do as much housework as the girls, but I suspect the Pissing Preacher's sons get plenty of time with dad's belt.

So, while in some households they may be little princes, I suspect a lot of them live in fear of their parents, of thinking outside their religious box and possibly in fear of the future. I feel sorry for anyone who is hobbled, and I think the boys are hobbled in their own ways.

[JenniferJuniper]

I think the molestation of the poor Duggar girls and their parents' handling of the aftermath tells us all anything we'd want to know about how females are treated in their world.

So no, I'd never feel as sorry for their sons.

[FloraKitty35]

I do feel sorry for the boys in this situation. I suspect that more than one brother was upset about what happened to their sisters and yet had not the words or knowledge or ability to help resolve the situation. Especially with the younger boys I suspect that all they saw was their sister's fear and unhappiness and the general tension in the house. They would not have had the tools to deal with this - except perhaps by acting out or misbehaving. I suspect that as soon as JB and M decided that it was over, everyone had to shut up and smile. However, secrets like this are like a cancer - they hurt everyone they touch. I am not implying that the girls did not suffer more only that the boys suffered too.

I also think their patriarchal religion fosters (and even seems to condone) misogyny. In their world a woman is little more than a possession who is there to submit to their headship and they blame a woman's clothes or actions for abuse/rape. Theirs is a culture that represses all sexuality until the magical day of marriage. They believe a woman's consent to her headship is always implied. They advise girls to start treating their brothers as future headships from a very young age. In their world, begging God for forgiveness is sufficient to address a crime such as Josh's. So yes Josh was the perpetrator but if you want to look at the roots of the problem look no farther than their religious beliefs.

Sounds like the FLDS only without the father having multiple wives.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Yes, I feel sorry for the fundie sons as well. They are also beaten and blanket trained as children, and they have their own unique problems like being forced to be tough and manly, treated like they are one knee away from being a rapist, expected to support a family of 10 on a job with no education.

I feel sadder for the girls though, as they get it far worse as girls are second class citizens in their culture, and they are more likely to be victims of the rampant sexual abuse.

[ghost]

[quote=ILoveJellybeans]Yes, I feel sorry for the fundie sons as well. They are also beaten and blanket trained as children, and they have their own unique problems like being forced to be tough and manly, treated like they are one knee away from being a rapist, expected to support a family of 10 on a job with no education.

I feel sadder for the girls though, as they get it far worse as girls are second class citizens in their culture, and they are more likely to be victims of the rampant sexual abuse.

[Kailash]

I do feel as sorry for the sons as I do the daughters, although for different reasons. Neither asked or chose to be born into this. The males *may* have it better as they get older, but growing up in this kind of environment is not easy. Watching your sisters turned into slaves and being helpless while your siblings get beat isn't easy for either girls or boys. The amount of guilt all of them carry must be beyond comprehension.

[kpmom]

IDK. I feel somewhat bad for young male children, but when they are grown they have the freedom to leave. The females do not.

I figure patriarchy was invented by men to benefit men, and when it stops doing that it won't exist any longer.

[Dandruff]

I feel as sorry for the sons right now, though I agree they tend to be better off when they can leave home. The Duggar sons know, or should eventually know, of the actions of their brother and father. They've been taught to demonstrate total obedience to their elders and authorities. They've also been taught that the purity of women is of great importance and must be protected. But there are people defending Josh. And their sisters have been primary sources of love and nurturing. I don't know how they're going to reconcile all this.

[salsa]

The girls are 2nd-class citizens and that, IMO, gives them an "edge" in the sympathy department.

Still, I feel sympathy towards any child who grows up under such mind control, isolation, physical and spiritual abuse, and denial of individuality.

[Palimpsest]

I feel sorry for both the sons and the daughters, but much more sorry for the daughters.

The boy children are at least given the opportunity to learn marketable skills and trades with the expectation that they will be the sole supporters of their future families. They are also given more independence than the girls.

Your average Fundie girl learns little more than home-making and child-care and perhaps how to play a harp. Badly.

Basically, boy children have a better chance of escaping and being able to support themselves.

[salsa]

I feel sorry for both the sons and the daughters, but much more sorry for the daughters.

The boy children are at least given the opportunity to learn marketable skills and trades with the expectation that they will be the sole supporters of their future families. They are also given more independence than the girls.

Your average Fundie girl learns little more than home-making and child-care and perhaps how to play a harp. Badly.

Basically, boy children have a better chance of escaping and being able to support themselves.

Yeah; what is it about fundies and the harp? I'm all for harp-playing; I love it, myself, but it seems there are a lot of fundy girls learning harp.

Kinda like the fundy girls and ballet, though that's understandable, because they need physical education in their homeschool.

[refugee]

The boys in our former church, at least the sons of the elite, were young lords who looked down their noses at everyone else (except, of course, their fathers). They were the privileged class. They bullied, often with impunity, the sons (and daughters) of those less privileged.

I might pity them, but only because of who they might have been, as opposed to the misogynist, blind, prideful, entitled SOBs they are being raised up to be.

[Jana814]

The girls are 2nd-class citizens and that, IMO, gives them an "edge" in the sympathy department.

Still, I feel sympathy towards any child who grows up under such mind control, isolation, physical and spiritual abuse, and denial of individuality.

Agree!!

[DGayle]

No. They're raised to sire and support a bunch of kids, meaning they're encouraged to work before courting and marriage, meaning they have a way out of they decide they want to leave. They're raised with an upperhand by having the tools to survive if they walk away.

[ADoyle90815]

Agree!!

I also agree with this, in that I feel more sorry for the girls since they're 2nd class citizens. The thing I feel sorry about the sons is that their homeschool education didn't fully prepare them for life in the real world, so even if they have more freedom and the chance to break free from the cult, it's going to be extremely difficult.

[Jencendiary]

No. For all the pressures put upon the young men of the Christian Patriarchy movement, at some point they will get to be autonomous human beings - they will have the freedom to leave the home, to work out among other people, to make money and keep it for themselves. Their bodies will not be broken birthing a 'blessing' every year, and they will not have to submit cheerfully to another human being's will after they leave their fathers' homes.

[FloraKitty35]

No, I don't feel as sorry for the sons in a patriarchy, because a penis is power in that world. I do feel sorrier for a son who is gay or transgender, than I do a run of the mill hetero fundie male.