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Hive Vagina Rules for a Happy Marriage


Burris

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Given that TLC has produced a new show about "submissive wives" - or allegedly submissive wives - and their guides to marriage, I began to wonder what members of the hive vagina, many of whom have been married for just as long as the Stepford Wives we discuss here, would produce as a Guide for Marriage.

Here is an extremely short form of what would otherwise be my very prolix position on the subject:

Marriage is the most important and intimate form of human relationship that exists, even beyond the bond a person has with his or her parents and siblings and children.

As such, it is also the last place in the world where one should find such gross sins as pettiness, jealousy, cruelty, abuse, back-biting, bitterness, and all manner of other ills that plague human relationships.

There is no more important a place for self-control and for mercy and an overflowing of kindness than within marriage. Each ill should be uprooted as it appears and replaced with the fragrant blossoms of charity and congeniality.

It is at home, behind closed doors and away from prying eyes, that spouses should be most polite to one another. They should be polite in public as well, and diligent not to embarrass or humiliate each other, but it is even more important at home: Each party comes to know that the other is sincere and can be trusted: This behaviour is meet for people who share a single purpose, a single destiny, and a single flesh.

Truly strong and loving marriages, unfeigned in any way, are so highly prized even among non-Believers that they are their own form of witness.

Kindness, mercy, friendship; they aren't just warm and fuzzy words - are you listening, fundies? Those terms mean things. They are action words. They call on you to behave kindly, to meet insult with mercy. These aren't things you're merely supposed to say; they're things your actually supposed to do for each other - and it does not matter which has chosen to lead and which has chosen to follow.

Your divorce rate says you're divorce-proof submissive marriages aren't doing any better than average. My theory, beyond that some people really just don't belong together, is that those who treat marriage as an excuse to control and manipulate one another are going to fail.

Our advice will not divorce-proof a marriage, but I believe it will make the big-D far less likely. (Fuuuuck - thanks so much to the forbearance and patience and good humour and non judgmental nature of my husband, marriage is one of the only things I have ever done "right" in a life just brimming with corrosive fuck-ups. In truth, it should be his advice here, but the quote I listed above is actually a part of a collaborative effort on a site we're building.)

In short, don't be an asshole to the person who is meant to be closer to your than your parents and your children (who will eventually grow up and leave you two alone again).

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Burris, if one thing comes through loud and clear in your posts it is how much you love your husband. That is so awesome.

I agree with just about everything you said and I could never be as eloquent. (The only bit I don't understand is the 'even unbelievers' comment because I'm not sure how that is relevant.)

My hubs and I have been married for almost 37 years. We were very young when we married, still in university, but we wanted to be together so we got married! (Should have just lived together but would have offended his RC parents. Don't get me started...)

At that age your lives are either going to go in entirely different directions or, if you're lucky, you will grow together and head off down the same path, hopefully hand-in-hand. We have been very lucky. For us it's pretty basic. We are a team. He is the person with whom I want to go on fantastic vacations (which we 'are blessed to be able to' do each year). He is the one with whom I want to share new sights and experiences. I took up golf so we could spend time together doing what he loves (though I prefer the nice outfits to the actual golf :embarrassed:).

As you stated, we treat each other with respect at all times. We are best friends. We put each other first. We compromise. Neither leads, neither blindly follows. It's not all champagne and roses, but it's pretty damn good.

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Thank you, Burris! [emoji8]

Mr. MtL and I are celebrating seven years today. I love what you wrote, almost as much as I love him!

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Mine is very short, and works for every relationship in life- Treat others the way you want them to treat you. Any time you are going to say or do anything, ask yourself "Would I like it if he/she said/did this to me?" If not, don't say/do it.

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Thank you, Burris, that is beautiful.

Fundies' expectations ruin marriages. I'm surprised mine survived our years of trying to live up to patriarchy teaching. What you wrote about respect and compassion and treating each other politely behind closed doors - so so important. :clap: :clap: :clap:

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Thank you, Burris, that is beautiful.

Fundies' expectations ruin marriages. I'm surprised mine survived our years of trying to live up to patriarchy teaching. What you wrote about respect and compassion and treating each other politely behind closed doors - so so important. :clap: :clap: :clap:

I know a thing - and I strongly suspect it's as true in marriage as it is everywhere else:

Cruelty makes more of itself.

Kindness makes more of itself.

If you want a good life, and one where you're committed to treating other people - including family - well, pick the latter.

The former - avoid it at all costs.

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Reading FJ has actually helped my marriage - whenever I read about assholes such as Ken A., Steve M., etc., it makes me appreciate my husband even more, because he is nothing like them. It also helps me to "not sweat the small stuff".

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The following excerpt is from an abridged version of JR Miller's "Home-Making," the new title of which is "Culture in the Christian Home."

One bright summer morning, a young man bade his wife and babe good bye, and went away to his work. Before midday there was an accident on the street; the scaffolding on which he was working gave way, and his lifeless body was carried back to his home, from which only a few hours before he had gone out so happily.

The shock was terrible, though the news was broken as gently as possible; but there was one comfort that came with wondrous power to the crushed heart of the devoted young wife: The last hour they had spent in each other's company, in the morning, had been peculiarly happy, and their parting at the door had been unusually tender. She had not dreamed at the time, that it would be their last talk together, yet there was not a word spoken which caused one painful memory, now that she would never more see him, nor speak with him again in this world.

Every memory of that quiet talk at the breakfast table, of the morning worship when they knelt side by side in prayer, and of the tender good bye on the doorstep, was full of comfort. Through years of loneliness and widowhood, the remembrance of that last hour has been an abiding source of gladness in her life, like a lamp of holy peace.

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I don't know if I should comment, as I have only been married for 15 months and just turned 25 three weeks ago. But, a same-sex marriage can be particularly high-pressure and difficult, since one feels the need to put on a good "face" in order to not harm the perception of all LGBTQ people ever, and one is more likely to face problems with either spouse's family, and poverty, so I feel like I've learned how to persevere through hard circumstances.

First, whether straight or not, throw away any idea or "list" of gendered chores or roles. Then, rebuild it. Communicate about what the expectations are for keeping up a house, and about which chores you hate vs. don't mind and why. Then you can make a great, fair division! For instance, maybe "the woman does all the inside chores, the man the outside ones" doesn't work because cleaning out the litterbox makes the wife gag, or she can't cook, or the husband has allergies and cutting the grass aggravates them. Talk about those sorts of things- it really does decrease arguing and resentment over small things.

Second, ignore what other people say about your spouse if it's not helpful or positive (unless you're actually being abused). Your spouse is the most important person in your life now. They're your family from the wedding day on. Not your parents, siblings, etc.

Third, be honest. I cannot repeat this enough. BE HONEST. Especially when it's hard. Instead of staying silent and letting an issue fester, raise it at the time, or at least shortly after you notice it. (This has really been a learning point for me, as tiger parenting effectively yelled a lot of my assertiveness out of me). Don't just say "fine" when it isn't.

Fourth, don't forget to nurture a connection with each other. This can even be small, easy things like remembering the other person's small likes and dislikes, unexpectedly helping with "their" chore, giving them a backrub, or buying them a favorite food. But, I also recommend date nights, even if it's only over diner breakfast or cheap pizza.

Fifth, remember that each of you is still your own person, and that you don't have everything in common with your spouse. And that's okay! It's okay to have other friends, even if they're of your preferred gender. It's okay to do things separately sometimes, like to have different hobbies or see different movies at the theater. (Just make sure you're not pouring disproportionate amounts of time or money into friends or hobbies- your spouse and home should remain your top priority. For example, I have a best friend and we routinely do things, like rock climbing, which my wife does not enjoy. However, we each check with our partners that we have the time and money to do things together before going out, and if either of them calls us, we break the "no-phone" policy and answer for our number-one people).

Finally, go into a marriage with the mindset that you will stay together and be married for several decades. Never approach marriage as "This might not work out, but..." or "If we got divorced..." Try not to even entertain the thought when you argue, much less say it (provided there's no abuse of any kind, no affairs, and no bad financial dealings). You made a commitment, and commitments take work to maintain. Working out an issue is part of that work. Think of that commitment during an argument; you're less likely to fight dirty, for instance using threats or names or curses, and more likely to stay calm. Take time out if you need it, and approach problems rationally and calmly.

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I think the most important thing is to marry someone you like. Not just love, not just lust. Those are important, too, but you have to like each other underneath all the other stuff. Your spouse has to be someone you genuinely like spending time with. I'm always amazed at the number of people who end up married to people they don't really get along with. How does that happen?

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I've been married to my husband for 17 years. I'm no expert and our lives are far from perfect, but here are a few things I've learned along the way:

1. Manage expectations - big and small - from how you manage your finances to how much time spent working to how late you like to sleep on weekends. Let them know if you're going to be late, or won't be able to pick up the groceries, or forgot to do something. A little consideration goes a long way. It's basic respect.

2. Don't be afraid to ask one another questions. None of us are mind readers. I think the stupidest fights we've had were because we didn't communicate something and the other person assumed instead of asking.

3. Every once in a while, give your partner your last cookie, or turn choosing the movie, a surprise foot rub, etc. Giving of yourself unexpectedly is a huge gift itself. I have an addiction to Snapple, and my hubby respects this. If there's only one left, he makes sure that he doesn't drink it and leave me without my daily treat. Sometimes, I'll surprise him and offer it to him. It sounds dorky, but I love surprising him and watching him enjoy my favorite treat.

4. "Thank you" and "please" aren't just for strangers. Even though most of us would do almost anything for those we love, it's still nice to hear those words, and to know that we're appreciated.

5. Balance doesn't necessarily mean everything is 50/50. Sometimes, it's 40/60 and other times, it's 70/30. The important thing is that things balance out in the end.

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I don't know if I should comment, as I have only been married for 15 months and just turned 25 three weeks ago. But, a same-sex marriage can be particularly high-pressure and difficult, since one feels the need to put on a good "face" in order to not harm the perception of all LGBTQ people ever, and one is more likely to face problems with either spouse's family, and poverty, so I feel like I've learned how to persevere through hard circumstances.

First, whether straight or not, throw away any idea or "list" of gendered chores or roles. Then, rebuild it. Communicate about what the expectations are for keeping up a house, and about which chores you hate vs. don't mind and why. Then you can make a great, fair division! For instance, maybe "the woman does all the inside chores, the man the outside ones" doesn't work because cleaning out the litterbox makes the wife gag, or she can't cook, or the husband has allergies and cutting the grass aggravates them. Talk about those sorts of things- it really does decrease arguing and resentment over small things.

Second, ignore what other people say about your spouse if it's not helpful or positive (unless you're actually being abused). Your spouse is the most important person in your life now. They're your family from the wedding day on. Not your parents, siblings, etc.

Third, be honest. I cannot repeat this enough. BE HONEST. Especially when it's hard. Instead of staying silent and letting an issue fester, raise it at the time, or at least shortly after you notice it. (This has really been a learning point for me, as tiger parenting effectively yelled a lot of my assertiveness out of me). Don't just say "fine" when it isn't.

Fourth, don't forget to nurture a connection with each other. This can even be small, easy things like remembering the other person's small likes and dislikes, unexpectedly helping with "their" chore, giving them a backrub, or buying them a favorite food. But, I also recommend date nights, even if it's only over diner breakfast or cheap pizza.

Fifth, remember that each of you is still your own person, and that you don't have everything in common with your spouse. And that's okay! It's okay to have other friends, even if they're of your preferred gender. It's okay to do things separately sometimes, like to have different hobbies or see different movies at the theater. (Just make sure you're not pouring disproportionate amounts of time or money into friends or hobbies- your spouse and home should remain your top priority. For example, I have a best friend and we routinely do things, like rock climbing, which my wife does not enjoy. However, we each check with our partners that we have the time and money to do things together before going out, and if either of them calls us, we break the "no-phone" policy and answer for our number-one people).

Finally, go into a marriage with the mindset that you will stay together and be married for several decades. Never approach marriage as "This might not work out, but..." or "If we got divorced..." Try not to even entertain the thought when you argue, much less say it (provided there's no abuse of any kind, no affairs, and no bad financial dealings). You made a commitment, and commitments take work to maintain. Working out an issue is part of that work. Think of that commitment during an argument; you're less likely to fight dirty, for instance using threats or names or curses, and more likely to stay calm. Take time out if you need it, and approach problems rationally and calmly.

Yes, LLL! I've been married twice for a total of 11 years. I ABSOLUTELY agree with your suggestions on being honest & mindset of staying together. And yes, it's also important to keep hanging with your friends! (DH has a weekly anime night with his friends that I think helps him to still have 100% to dedicate to me & our family:) Rock on!:)

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It will be 27 years come August.

My advice is simple: hang in there and remember that your spouse is your best friend.

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Thanks y'all for the advice. My husband and I have only been married for almost 2 months. I'm printing these posts for future reference.

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I married my best friend and our marriage is mostly about each of us doing ridiculous things in everyday situations to make the other one laugh. And that seems to work for us :)

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As of next month, I will have been married to my (one and only) husband for 38 years. Others in this thread have already said the same things I would say. I guess I would just say - love - really love, not just say it - each other. To me, that implies do unto the other as you would want done unto you. And it is absolutely true - be each other's best friend.

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I can give you a list of rules for what not to do for a happy marriage, but a happy marriage starts with what you do before you get married.

Marry your best friend. That person who makes you laugh and tries hard not to make you cry. Sexual attraction and interest will change over time for any number of reasons. If that's all you have there will be problems. Kindness, caring, and selflessness go a very long way to making your spouse look sexually attractive so a best friend will become more attractive over time.

Understand that although you love your spouse you will not always like them. That's OK. However it is never OK to treat them disrespectfully.

Be sure you really know your partner and this includes knowing their family because when the chips are down, you are both tired and frustrated, and tempers are heating up, you will both fall back on what you know which is learned from your family growing up*.

Understand that you WILL NOT change your spouse so you better know it all; the good, the bad and the ugly. Don't gloss over anything. Hash it out before you marry and be realistic about the implications of any particular issue in your future.

Marry because you truly see your life with your partner rather than because you want a spouse/children/parental expectations/vision/etc.

Date night once a week even if it consists of a long walk or drive. This becomes critical if there are children involved. It is too easy to become roommates once the kids come along and roommate status can be the start of a slippery slope to divorce (roommate status does not mean you just don't have sex anymore. It means you are treating each other casually, in an offhand manner, regardless of how much sex you are having).

Vacation for two (no kids allowed) at least once a year. Leave all work/worries/outside forces at home. Time to remember what the two of you are all about. Time to talk, a lot, about the two of you, do what you both enjoy etc.

Keep your promises, admit your mistakes, "I'm sorry" is a full sentence.

"I'm sorry, but" is no apology at all.

These are the rules I tell my children. I have been married 27 years this August. I probably should have been divorced at 5 years. If I had followed my own rules I would not have gotten married. Still, after 15 years of a gradual decent into hell we began slowly working our way back up. We have probably put 5 children of our therapists through college and bought them any number of boats :) . We take two steps forward and one step back. When we are good we are very, very good and when we are bad it is horrible. I apologize weekly to my children for fucking up their lives. They tell me they love me.

* For those who don't believe this rule. My son and his fiance and their now 6 month old baby live with us. I love his fiance. They actually knew each other and dated for about 4 years before she got pregnant. When things get stressful in their relationship and they are both tired/frustrated/irritated I sometimes see my husband and I arguing. The passive aggressive behaviors come out, the snippy, nasty comments, the YOU statements. It is horrifying and humiliating. It hurts that I taught my son (and yes, her family is similar) that this behavior was normal. Verbally I taught my kids that what went on in my marriage and the treatment and behaviors were not OK, but actions speak louder than words. Remember this.

I have agonized over whether to push the submit or delete button for this wall o' text. In the long run if ones' life is to mean something it needs to make other lives better. Maybe this will help someone. The details of my mistakes aren't all that important, but maybe the lessons learned are. So I push submit.

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dpndetfarm's post adds another view to this discussion. What goes for one marriage may not be the same for every marriage - and that's OK.

Gotta say, during the years of raising kids, our date nights were few and far between (money). And a vacation for two didn't happen until the kids were grown (also money and no one to leave the kids with). We are still at 38 years.

BTW - I TOTALLY agree with the "I'm sorry" vs. "I'm sorry BUT".

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dpndetfarm's post adds another view to this discussion. What goes for one marriage may not be the same for every marriage - and that's OK.

Gotta say, during the years of raising kids, our date nights were few and far between (money). And a vacation for two didn't happen until the kids were grown (also money and no one to leave the kids with). We are still at 38 years.

BTW - I TOTALLY agree with the "I'm sorry" vs. "I'm sorry BUT".

We didn't start either of those until after the first 15 years. Money, at least on date night, shouldn't be an issue, since there are lots of free things you can do together. Of course if you have done many of the earlier rules you might have date night without even knowing it since you practice date night regularly. Did that help make date night clear as mud? LOL In my head I knew exactly what I meant by date night or vacation. Too bad no one else lives in my head! :embarrassed:

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I think it took a strong backbone to post that.

I'm passing over your entirely sensible list to reach what I found at bottom:

For those who don't believe this rule. My son and his fiance and their now 6 month old baby live with us. I love his fiance. They actually knew each other and dated for about 4 years before she got pregnant. When things get stressful in their relationship and they are both tired/frustrated/irritated I sometimes see my husband and I arguing. The passive aggressive behaviors come out, the snippy, nasty comments, the YOU statements. It is horrifying and humiliating. It hurts that I taught my son (and yes, her family is similar) that this behavior was normal. Verbally I taught my kids that what went on in my marriage and the treatment and behaviors were not OK, but actions speak louder than words. Remember this.

While my childless marriage has worked out better than I could ever have hoped, I have made errors in other realms - some of them totally irreparable.

What I noticed about your comment here is this doesn't look entirely irreparable. It reads as if there are good people all around but who argue in ways and for reasons that are...well, not terribly productive.

I hope you'll see my advice in the spirit it is given.

I can't imagine the things you're tried in an effort to see that your kids avoid your mistakes, but one thing comes to mind that you may not have tried: Write them letters explaining where you believe you went wrong, then sit them down together - if they're willing to do this - and ask them to agree on a few simple rules for how they get along. For example, no harsh comments - and if one spouse forgets, the other should still remember and not answer back. Arguments should be productive: They should have a beginning, a middle, an end, and then they're done for good. (There are lists online about how to argue effectively - such things as to attack the problem and not the partner; to use "I" statements as opposed to "you always...")

I have agonized over whether to push the submit or delete button for this wall o' text. In the long run if ones' life is to mean something it needs to make other lives better. Maybe this will help someone. The details of my mistakes aren't all that important, but maybe the lessons learned are. So I push submit.

I am glad you did submit this. No discussion of marriage is complete without talking about how things can go wrong as well as right.

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The priest who did our wedding gave the following advice in his homily:

Regularly say the following phrases:

I love you

I'm sorry

I forgive you

Please

Thank you

And always consider yourselves a team.

This was in contrast to the priest we could have had, had we married in the parish that I worked in and that my husband grew up in. At a staff retreat shortly after our engagement, when we hadn't decided where to have the wedding yet, he talked about how he tells married couples that the advantage of having a spouse is that there is someone to take all of your frustrations out on and that is okay; because being married means you can come home from a bad day at work and yell at your spouse with no repercussions.

Frankly, I assume that both of these priests gleaned their lessons about married life from the homes they grew up in and I would not have wanted to grow up in the second priest's family!

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Support your partner.

Be kind to him or her.

Encourage him or her in his/her dreams.

Show your love in a way that is meaningful to him/her.

Talk to your partner. Talk KINDLY to your partner.

Be kind. Be kind. Be kind.

Show your AFFECTION.

Have fun.

For the love of all that's holy, seriously, just have fun.

My husband and I do not have a perfect marriage. We bicker. Sometimes he picks at me just to annoy me. (I might be guilty of this, too). Sometimes we vent to or at one another. Sometimes we have unfair expectations. But underneath it all is the belief that we are partners in life. We believe in one another. We love each other. And we have fun. No matter what we do, we genuinely enjoy one another's company and just have fun.

Married 14+ years, together about 17. And we still have fun. I don't ever want that to change.

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Don't talk shit about your partner in front of other people. Just don't. It's mean and petty. If you have to be mean to each other, do it in private.

When you resolve an issue, leave it resolved. Don't go back in time and rehash everything every time you get into an argument. The past is over, you can't change it. You can only change your feeling about the past.

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29 years in October.

See, I did NOT marry my "best friend".. or my "soulmate"'; I don't really believe soul-mates exist.

I did marry a man who loves and respects me.

I love and respect him.

We argue; we're both very strong minded. We do NOT descend into name calling or pettiness.

We do give each other space and time.

We allow each other to get over it.

We do not hold grudges.

We've had our share of issues: college, jobs, moves, infertility, adoption, kids in trouble with the law. We keep talking to each other.

We try to keep a united front.

We call each other on bullshit.

So. Be respectful.

Give the benefit of the doubt.

Be truthful.

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This is the single most beautiful thread I have ever read (compare and contrast with the Lori Alexander and Pearl School for Godly Marriage). I wish what you all wrote becomes part of the curriculum or at least frame it and hang it in every room in the house. I agree with everything and add my own (with a big disclaimer that all this wonderful advice should be used only in non-abusive relationships, where no amount of good advice will stop party A from hurting part B):

Do not, ever, go for the jugular when you fight. Make a very conscious effort to fight fair. You both know each other's most vulnerable spots so tread carefully.

You will be shat on by life. Timing, intensity and duration may vary, but some hard times are guaranteed. Not being happy all the time doesn't mean you're doomed. Look at the bigger picture and keep pushing through.

You are not responsible for each other's happiness. At the end of the day, while your partner is your biggest source of love and support, they can not make you happy (nor can you feel responsible for their unhappiness). Know yourself, work on changing what you can and accepting what you can't, and if your partner is going through a rough patch, don't feel it's your personal responsibilities to make them better.

Laugh a lot. Make your own private little rituals and inside jokes. Make time for each other. Look at the big picture.

(19 years of marriage, together for 25 years, plus observations of happy and un-happy marriages in both our immediate and extended families)

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