Modesty! You know you want it

[JesusFightClub]

I found this on an FJist's link to a Salon article on Sovereign Grace Ministries and had to share: http://media.sermonaudio.com/mediapdf/12908209345.pdf

Modesty is humility expressed in dress, a desire to serve others, particularly men, and not promote or provoke sensuality or lust.

OK, I'm seeing an issue with dressing to show you want to serve men and simultaneously not provoking lust. :pink-shock:

Now I think you will agree with me that modesty and self control would be foreign to the

overly majority of women who walk through at present Lake Forest, Montgomery or

White Flint Mall.

I dunno, I think there's a non-weird way to do this. What they are wearing at the time becomes of zero importance when you respect them as people.

A woman who focuses on worshipping God will consider carefully how she is dressed, because her heart

will dictate her wardrobe and appearance.

So the women in your church need a lengthy rant on how they're all immodestly dressed sluts why?

So please do not conclude from this passage that there his categorical prohibition against a woman

enhancing her appearance. I do not believe that is accurate.

Of course not. We'd better be attractive to men and not attractive to men at the same time. We should be pretty but modest, beautiful but not beautiful in a bad way, and made up but not MADE UP, ya get me.

When do men get the insane level of policing that women are supposed to put up with?

Listen carefully, ladies. This is not an aberration. This is not an unusual testimony. This

is the norm.

“Each and every day on campus is a battle, a battle against my sin, a battle against

temptation, a battle against my depraved mind. Every morning I have to cry out for

mercy, strength and a renewed conviction to flee youthful lusts. The Spirit is faithful to

bring me the renewal I need to prepare me to do war against my sin. Yet the temptation

still exists. I am thankful God has created me to be attracted to women. However,

campus is a loaded minefield. There are girls everywhere and it is guaranteed that I will

pass some attractive girls as I walk in between classes. I either have to be actively

engaging my mind and my spirit to praying, quoting Scripture, listening to worship music

or simply looking at the sidewalk to make it through unscathed. Many days it takes all

four to be safe.

“The thing that women do not seem to fully grasp is that the temptation towards lust does

not stop for us as men. It is continual. It is aggressive. It does all it can to lead men down

to death.

“They have a choice to help or deter its goal."

You know something? I don't care. When I was religious it still wasn't my job to make sure men never get boners. It wasn't my job to bind down my breasts or to never swim/take exercise or to wear a burqa or not to make noise with my shoes in case it made men think of my legs. It wasn't my job to stop existing because men find women attractive. It isn't ANY woman's job.

Part 2 coming up, when I can breathe again.

[JesusFightClub]

To the girls who are ignorant, please serve your brother and have your dad screen your wardrobe.

LOL, they've never met my dad. This is the man who wanted to buy me a size 22 "Long" skirt as a present. I'm a size 12, and am five foot tall. The skirt was almost bigger than I am.

“At church, the one place where I might think not to have to face temptation is at church,

but this is not always the case. When ladies that I am friends with dress immodestly it definitely has a negative effect on our friendship. When she dresses immodestly, it doesn’t make it easy to see her as a sister in Christ.."

So you stop respecting women on the basis of how they dress. I think the fact that if they wear something that's slightly lower cut you'll stick that in the wank-bank might make them stop respecting you as a brother in Christ.

I also think some ladies just aren’t aware that even little things can distract guys a lot.

Showing even a little part of their stomach, wearing bags that have a strap that goes

between their breasts, et cetera

Or having breasts at all. How dare we!

Basically his argument is "Never show that you're a human female or human heterosexual males might desire you. This would be your fault so make sure it never happens." He's setting an impossible task and blaming women for not achieving it.

Questions for application. Was there a man who arrived today desirous of worshiping

and serving God who instead found himself distracted by you and your body, because of

the way you are dressed?

How interested was he actually in serving God, if the sight of a woman's body can send him off track?

Second, is your wardrobe modest, evidencing self control and respectable apparel? Every

outfit, no exceptions. But I encourage you not to trust your own evaluation. If you are

married, begin by asking your husband, but I would encourage every every woman here to

invite two or three other women into the evaluation process as well.

I get dressed for work. I am actually dressed for work right now as we speak.

I live with my brother. He works a different shift pattern from me so he's asleep at the moment. Do I wake him up and say "Alright bruv, do you think this shirt will distract men and cause them to obsess about my breasts?"

I know "two or three women" but they all work in order to keep their families solvent and stable. They do not have time to come round to my place and check I am modest enough.

In what alternate universe does he live in?

[miffy]

I would have to wear a life jacket underneath my clothes to hide my breasts. They are there, REALLY there & I get stared(ogled) at all the flipping time!! I hate it!

[Miggy]

I would have to wear a life jacket underneath my clothes to hide my breasts. They are there, REALLY there & I get stared(ogled) at all the flipping time!! I hate it!

Me too. I am thinking a life jacket then a boiler suit and I might manage to hide my breasts and hips. Then I would get flack for dressing like a man. It's actually kinda weird: ladies who have no figure are praised for being feminine while ladies who have curves in all the appropriate places are criticised for leading men astray.

[Koala]

I really appreciate the time he put into this. It'll be very helpful if I ever lose my mind and start to give a shit what some ass backwards little pervert thinks of the way I dress.

[uber frau]

Me too. I am thinking a life jacket then a boiler suit and I might manage to hide my breasts and hips. Then I would get flack for dressing like a man. It's actually kinda weird: ladies who have no figure are praised for being feminine while ladies who have curves in all the appropriate places are criticised for leading men astray.

Perhaps a life jacket under a burka would keep them happy (But probably not).

[Tdoc72]

Grrr! So a man is supposed to rule his entire household yet can't control his sexual lust? Fundie logic makes no sense.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

I also think some ladies just aren’t aware that even little things can distract guys a lot.

Showing even a little part of their stomach, wearing bags that have a strap that goes

between their breasts, et cetera

Jeebus. We've gone past the "too-short skirts and plunging necklines" right into the territory of "contrasting buttons and distracting prints." Seriously, if I wanted to make my daughter into a neurotic wreck I could start harping on "be attractive but don't be distracting." That's a damn fine line. Heels, yes or no? Colored hose, yes or no? Lipstick, yes or no? Depending on your dad's taste or your husband's or your brother's you could get multiple answers and how is a girl to know what is going to turn on some random dude? Having a figure, yes or no? Breathing, yes or no?

I just remembered a guy I hooked up with in college telling me how he could hear my every breath and sigh in class and it was a constant turn-on.

[anjulibai]

These men that can't look at women without being aroused need to live in a cloistered monastery.

[salex]

These men that can't look at women without being aroused need to live in a cloistered monastery.

Or, go ahead and just masturbate a couple of times a day like most young guys. That would help chill them out a bit.

[acheronbeach]

Much as he protests otherwise, this is not the norm.

This is sexual deviancy. Maybe it's a form of deviancy common to evangelicals because of they way they are raised, but it's deviant nonetheless.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Or, go ahead and just masturbate a couple of times a day like most young guys. That would help chill them out a bit.

100% honest answer, I too think this would help a lot. So many posters will talk about being "distracted" to the point they can't really concentrate on anything else, well... 5 minutes in a private room can get your concentration BACK, is all I'm saying!

But alas, for male fundies it's forbidden!

Also I don't get the obsession with all the supposedly "slutty" dressed women on campuses, either. I'll grant, there are people who wear pretty skimpy clubbing clothes at night to the bars, but if you're talking a college campus during the day, most people are just wearing some sort of casual wear. I suppose their leggings might be a problem for the fundies, but it's leggings/jeans/sweatpants, plus some sort of sweatshirt/sweater, and boots, this time of year. If you're outside, you can add a big down coat or outdoor high tech jacket (choose your option!) over the whole thing. Lots of Uggs. People are studying. Though most women are in pants, so I guess that's a problem.

[thoughtful]

Now I think you will agree with me that modesty and self control would be foreign to the

overly majority of women who walk through at present Lake Forest, Montgomery or

White Flint Mall.

I think this person should forget about lecturing others on modesty, and work on her ability to write a sentence.

What's an "overly majority?"

[dairyfreelife]

Well...this time of the year, most people are in sweaters and anything warm...but it was negative 4 when I checked the weather this morning. And no, that's not normal temperatures here at all. 40 is the normal Fahrenheit temperature in winter. So, everyone is bundled up head to toe, but a tunic or sweater may show breasts, so guess still wouldn't be enough for this dude.

Also, my boyfriend and I met online. He saw my picture first and you could not see my breasts, mostly only my face, yet that caught his attention. Apparently my smile caught his attention. Should I not smile anymore either, I wonder. May turn someone on. What's the boundary. What's the limit. Hidden away in some female Christian camp from birth covered head to toe until we reach 18 and then the young men come and just pick one of us to be his bride. It is ridiculous the limits. Stop blaming us and control yourself. It's not my problem if I am walking to class and catch your eye for whatever reason.

Seriously, most religions like this make men look like nothing more than wild animals on the prowl, unable to control themselves at all or think rationally. It's such an insult to men imo.

[2xx1xy1JD]

100% honest answer, I too think this would help a lot. So many posters will talk about being "distracted" to the point they can't really concentrate on anything else, well... 5 minutes in a private room can get your concentration BACK, is all I'm saying!

But alas, for male fundies it's forbidden!

Also I don't get the obsession with all the supposedly "slutty" dressed women on campuses, either. I'll grant, there are people who wear pretty skimpy clubbing clothes at night to the bars, but if you're talking a college campus during the day, most people are just wearing some sort of casual wear. I suppose their leggings might be a problem for the fundies, but it's leggings/jeans/sweatpants, plus some sort of sweatshirt/sweater, and boots, this time of year. If you're outside, you can add a big down coat or outdoor high tech jacket (choose your option!) over the whole thing. Lots of Uggs. People are studying. Though most women are in pants, so I guess that's a problem.

I've finally concluded that these obsessions over falling into sin must be about sexy thoughts and masturbation, instead of just having sex when you shouldn't.

Normal men really don't have to struggle THAT hard to avoid jumping into bed with random women they see who happen to have a gap in their blouse or wear their purses across the body. If you tell these boys that whacking off is a major sin and even thinking about sex will send them to hell, that's another story.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Not sure about the "just thinking" part, but I've certainly read various worried posts from extremely... modesty-obsessed people online who worry very much that any sort of pleasant look on a woman (or any view of a woman, if we go to the true extremes) might cause the men (or boys - the men are presumably married so at least have some "outlet" much of the time) to "stumble" because the "stumbling" is definitely about masturbation or even just having wet dreams.

From my POV, it's crazy.

[salsa]

Well, wimminz shouldn't be goin' ta college, anyhow.

Smiling at a man may make him think you're flirting, and not smiling makes you look like a bitch, so you should just go around with a vague pleasant look on your face.

Walking might make a man remember the fact that there are legs under the skirt, so you should just sort of shuffle along.

Talking might make a man remember that you have a mouth and tongue, so make sure you keep your lips closed, or better yet shut up altogether....

Really, if you're going to be that concerned with modesty, just cover the hell up altogether and shut up

[2xx1xy1JD]

The whole thing was cringe-worthy.

Look, some of the suggestions for guidelines at the very end were not unreasonable - in fact, many were more lenient than the dress codes in many offices, my place of worship and my kids' school.

If there was just a simple dress code - for both men and women, that could be relatively normal. Yes, men too. Perhaps a man needs to be pulled aside and discreetly told that his belly is peeking through his shirt, or that his shirt is not high or closed enough to cover all the chest hair, or that he needs to do a "bend test" to ensure that there is never a gap revealed when he bends over since women find plumber cracks so distracting....

If there were some helpful hints, from women, on looking professional and avoid common wardrobe issues, focused solely on the clothes, that could be relatively normal.

But no, do NOT give vomit-inducing sermons. Don't talk about it being a heart issue, and then in the next paragraph say that most women have no idea of the effect they have. A woman can point out a tailor or someone who sells cheap, sleeveless shells or camis that fix common problems with fit, and you don't need a pastor bringing up the idea that all guys are horny bastard thinking rude stuff about the women all around them.

You can also realize that female anatomy exists. It is not detachable. I'm a D cup, and it's pretty obvious that the girls are there. I wear a sturdy purse across my body because it's comfortable and convenient, and it's safer since the purse it harder to snatch.

And WTF to the idea that you leave newcomers alone....but later bring out the busy bodies. Look, there are two ways to handle it. If the dress code is important, you put up a sign or have cards with basic decorum expectations. If you want to present as welcoming to all, then you don't mention it. Ever. Most people will get a sense of what's expected just from looking around, but it's misleading advertising to act cool and accepting at first only to reveal the congregation as interfering and judgmental later.

[latraviata]

Well, wimminz shouldn't be goin' ta college, anyhow.

Smiling at a man may make him think you're flirting, and not smiling makes you look like a bitch, so you should just go around with a vague pleasant look on your face.

Walking might make a man remember the fact that there are legs under the skirt, so you should just sort of shuffle along.

Talking might make a man remember that you have a mouth and tongue, so make sure you keep your lips closed, or better yet shut up altogether....

Really, if you're going to be that concerned with modesty, just cover the hell up altogether and shut up

A burqa should do the trick.

[Cannelle]

If you are

married, begin by asking your husband, but I would encourage every every woman here to

invite two or three other women into the evaluation process as well.

If I asked my husband about my clothing, I would get the world's blankest stare, followed by, "Why are you asking me this? Wear whatever you want." Because he doesn't feel the need to police me, you see.

How the fuck are we supposed to dress so our breasts aren't apparent? Women have breasts. Get over it. Asking us to dress so that there's no hint of them is impossible. Even in the bulkiest of sweaters, it's obvious that I have breasts, because God saw fit to grant me with larger than normal ones. It's like asking men to go around not showing off their noses. Noses stick out, just like breasts do. Kind of hard to hide that shit. Unless I walk around with a shower curtain draped around a large ring around my neck, there's no way to hide that I'm a woman with a woman's body.

These douchebags need to stop blaming everyone else for their hormones. Whiny little shits.

[Hane]

I recently read a novel (can't recall the title) set on Saudi Arabia. The female protagonist worked in a lab, where men and women worked in segregated units. One guy complained that the burqa-clad women were distracting him because of the sounds their shoes made, and they were told to wear soft-soled shoes to protect him from getting a boner or something.

[twinmama]

Good god, it's OKAY to be attracted to people you see. What is the big effing deal about noticing breasts and liking them? Can this guy not stop himself from attacking everything he finds attractive? Can he do anything other than masturbate furiously when he thinks of a good looking woman? I know I'm just a lady, but I've always been able to see a hot guy, appreciate him, and continue walking to class.

And now I can't even hang a bag sideways across my body without defrauding someone?

[salsa]

A burqa should do the trick.

At least those women in our area who wear them (they're not really burqas, though, because their eyes are still visible) are being honest about it - and are at least theoretically free to choose or not choose to wear them (though I'm certain there is likely pressure to do so among some families). Many shop in the store where I work and they seem normal-enough to me. It took me a little getting used to talking to women whose faces were covered, but they have normal conversations in normal voices - not little girl voices. ... but I digress.

Just that if you're going to have such rules, then just find an overall solution and stfu.

I'd like to hear a sermon about men's modesty

[nausicaa]

I recently read a novel (can't recall the title) set on Saudi Arabia. The female protagonist worked in a lab, where men and women worked in segregated units. One guy complained that the burqa-clad women were distracting him because of the sounds their shoes made, and they were told to wear soft-soled shoes to protect him from getting a boner or something.

I realize I am violating a version of Godwin's Law with this, but under the Taliban in Afghanistan, women were not allowed to wear high heels because the clacking noise would alert men to the presence of women and potentially arouse them.

[argypargy]

Da fuq did I just read?

Sounds like someone needs to have a good wank and get on with his day.

I'm 99.99% sure most normal men (those who masturbate and have premarital sex) don't look at women the same as this dude does.