Mary Winkler

[Arielkay]

Last night Lifetime repeated the movie "The Pastor's Wife" about the preacher's wife who shot her Church of Christ husband. I know people talked about Mary on this site before, but couldn't find anything. Does anyone have anymore information about her? Was she really abused by her husband as she claimed? I can believe a preacher's wife, especially in that church, feeling she had to toe the line with her husband - ye old head of the household. But they didn't seem to have a lot of proof, and it was shocking she was let free so quickly.

If there is another topic on this, please merge. Thanks.

[laura oz]

Is that the one where she shot him while he slept because he made her wear lingerie and do dirty stuff?

[Arielkay]

Yeah, that's the one. Also he was controlling and abusive - according to her. Everyone else thought husband was perfect, but don't most people think that of first couples in the church? Who knows?

[Kira]

I remember the interview she did with Oprah. It was...strange. I know many people who changed their minds about the case after that interview. When she was was initially arrested for the murder murder she claimed they were fighting about money, the abuse allegations came later. As ArielKay said, who knows

[Stephanie66]

I remember a waitress (who had no dog in the fight) testifying that the family would come in to eat at her restaurant. Matthew would order a big plate of ribs, then proceed to eat them in front of his wife and children, not allowing them to eat at all.

That sounds pretty abusive to me, but then...why did she put up with that crap?

[Ms Lucy Fur]

Iirc, she had been writing bad checks. I am not sure if that was the reason for the shooting, only she does, but from what I have read, this was another case of a female being trained from birth to submit to her headship and that she had no right to say no.

[javafriend]

I recently read a true crime paperback about this case. I don't remember the name but I found the book at the dollar store. Part of the problem was that the investigation of the case was not handled well. She was kiting checks but it also seems plausible that he was a domineering jerk.

[laura oz]

I remember I wanted to see that movie on Lifetime, because it had the guy from Stargate SG1 as the pastor. I remember when it was in the news a lot, and the former FBI lady that profiles the Deadly Women on ID talked about it & she's a pretty tough cookie. Candice DeLong I think is her name, and she was sympathetic to her. Like I said, she's tough, so her opinion carries some weight with me. I known many more demons to be in church than at a bar on Saturday night.

[Stephanie66]

I have no doubt Matthew Winkler was an abusive jerk. Whether or not he deserves the death penalty for being an abusive jerk is another issue altogether.

[bionicmlle]

I remember I wanted to see that movie on Lifetime, because it had the guy from Stargate SG1 as the pastor. I remember when it was in the news a lot, and the former FBI lady that profiles the Deadly Women on ID talked about it & she's a pretty tough cookie. Candice DeLong I think is her name, and she was sympathetic to her. Like I said, she's tough, so her opinion carries some weight with me. I known many more demons to be in church than at a bar on Saturday night.

I agree with you about Candice DeLong - I love when she comments on these shows (I'm an ID addict...). She is a tough cookie and generally is not all that sympathetic to killers. I have seen several shows about the Winkler murder and I believe she was quite emotionally abused, neglected and likely used, sexually.

[bananacat]

I remember a waitress (who had no dog in the fight) testifying that the family would come in to eat at her restaurant. Matthew would order a big plate of ribs, then proceed to eat them in front of his wife and children, not allowing them to eat at all.

That sounds pretty abusive to me, but then...why did she put up with that crap?

I really have to object to any type of victim blaming. Why did she put up with it isn't the right question to ask. The right question is why he did it to her. The whole point of abuse is that it's coercive. Abusers don't just start out treating someone badly. They work up to it and manipulate and coerce people into staying. If it were easy to leave, abuse would be rare. I could list a million reasons why she might have stayed, but I don't have to. Her staying doesn't give him the right to abuse her further. Framing it that way makes it harder for victims to come forward. If you ever talk to an abuse victim personally, I beg you not to ask her why she stayed so long. You'll only make her feel worse.

[bananacat]

I have no doubt Matthew Winkler was an abusive jerk. Whether or not he deserves the death penalty for being an abusive jerk is another issue altogether.

I don't know what you would prefer instead, but the arrest and conviction rates for abuse are dismally low. If she had reported it, he almost certainly would have received a slap on the wrist, at most. He probably wouldn't even get arrested at all, and he would likely escalate his abuse to get revenge. And if you think a divorce and a restraining order are effective against an abuser that is still completely free in society, then you are hopelessly naive. Ideally, he wouldn't have had to die for it. In our current system, it was the only real option she had to be safe.

[fun2beme]

Is that the one where she shot him while he slept because he made her wear lingerie and do dirty stuff?

I recall that he had a foot fetish as well (I remember a particularly fugly pair of platform sandals he made he wear, don't know why that sticks in my mind). I read a lot about the case at the time, and there was so much ambiguity, making the quick resolution even more puzzling. But you never really know what goes on behind closed doors.

[treemom]

This always kills me because I am a born gossip and my husband actually worked on this case and did the forensics.

Lots of things were not allowed to be entered into court. I have no idea if he was an abuser, but there is lots of info that shows she had motive beyond that.

[Koala]

That sounds pretty abusive to me, but then...why did she put up with that crap?

Abuse victims don't typically go into relationships intending to be abused. Unfortunately, by the time they realize how bad their situation is, they have usually been isolated and might not even have a job or money of their own. They often end up feeling trapped or possibly even too afraid to leave.

Edited a million times...sorry.

[Koala]

I really have to object to any type of victim blaming. Why did she put up with it isn't the right question to ask. The right question is why he did it to her. The whole point of abuse is that it's coercive. Abusers don't just start out treating someone badly. They work up to it and manipulate and coerce people into staying. If it were easy to leave, abuse would be rare. I could list a million reasons why she might have stayed, but I don't have to. Her staying doesn't give him the right to abuse her further. Framing it that way makes it harder for victims to come forward. If you ever talk to an abuse victim personally, I beg you not to ask her why she stayed so long. You'll only make her feel worse.

Damn but I wish I had read your answer before I replied. You said it so much better than I could have.

My mother was a victim of domestic violence and the whole "why did she put up with that crap" was a real :evil-eye: for me. Who the hell cares "why she put up with that crap"? How about "why does he feel he has the right to abuse another human being"?

[fatcat]

It appears from what I've read that she claims she shot her husband accidentally. That seems a bit suspect to me.

[treemom]

My husband, who is an exceedingly good man who I trust, worked on this case. He did some of the forensics. I have no idea if she was abused...but there are things that were not allowed in the trial that I think we're important.

While I believe she was guilty, I also believe that it could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt either. But I don't think abuse was an issue, but I don't know of course.

[treemom]

Gah. It is so hard to know some stuff and not be able to say it. But what was known is it wasn't just fighting about money...she was taken in on a Nigeria scam and lost all their money. Everything. She shot him the day he discovered it.

[treemom]

And I agree with all the comments about victim blaming, why didn't she leave. I may personally doubt Mary Winkler, but I don't think it is the victim's fault. Nor do I think most who claim abuse are being untruthful. I think it is relatively rare actually.

[Stephanie66]

Gah. It is so hard to know some stuff and not be able to say it. But what was known is it wasn't just fighting about money...she was taken in on a Nigeria scam and lost all their money. Everything. She shot him the day he discovered it.

I remember this.

And I don't believe Matthew was going to kill her or even hit her over it. He was going to be very angry, but I would be in a reverse situation.

I believe a huge part of her motivation was because he was going to be upset and maybe even file for divorce. She didn't want anyone to know what she did, so she killed him.

He was not a threat to her while asleep, and there is no documentation that he was abusive. I think he was an asshole, but he didn't deserve to be murdered.

[nelliebelle1197]

This case always pricks my ears because it happened in Selmer, TN. Selmer/McNairy county and nearby Hardin County/Savannah were home to my family from for over a century. The only thing left of us is a namesake creek and a cemetery full of relatives outside Shiloh battlefield. Nothing ever seems to happen there, but then this pops up!

[FeministShrew]

Abuse victims don't typically go into relationships intending to be abused. Unfortunately, by the time they realize how bad their situation is, they have usually been isolated and might not even have a job or money of their own. They often end up feeling trapped or possibly even too afraid to leave.

Edited a million times...sorry.

This. Times eleventy.

This could easily have been me. I started out praying for my abuser (he doesn't deserve to be called a husband) to stop. Then I prayed for God to help me change him. Then I prayed to die so it would stop. Then I prayed that he would die. (Divorce was such an evil concept to me that in over 3 years of abuse, it was never a serious option for me).

Finally, I started fighting back. He had me pinned against a wall banging my head against a wall, & I got a hand free & slapped him. He immediately went to his brother's house & had him take a picture of the "evidence." Then he told me if I ever called the police on him, he would show them the picture & I would be arrested. I believed him.

We went to marriage counseling, where I was told to lie about our "problems" or be beaten. I finally broke down & told the counselor, (a man) who reacted by saying that he couldn't help us & not to come back. The ex nearly killed me that night, then kicked me out & called my mom to come get me. (He had sold my car to keep me dependent on him.)

The thing is, if I had ever grabbed his gun during the times he chased me with it & shot him, I would have been on trial for my life because there was no documentation of abuse. I was terrified to tell because he swore to kill me & my family. I couldn't call the police because he refused to have a phone (no cell phones- it was the late 80's /early 90's).

And the only time I would have been brave enough to kill his crazy, evil ass was while he was asleep.

Cases like that always trigger hellish memories for me.

[CruitLvr]

He was not a threat to her while asleep, and there is no documentation that he was abusive. I think he was an asshole, but he didn't deserve to be murdered.

That was always kind of the impression I got as well.

[salex]

Yeah, that's the one. Also he was controlling and abusive - according to her. Everyone else thought husband was perfect, but don't most people think that of first couples in the church? Who knows?

But hadn't she also lost a lot of money to gambling or a Nigerian Scam that was part of their problem?