Is a world without women what fundies want?

[YPestis]

What would fundie women do if there were no females working? Do you honestly think most would be comfortable with a male doctor doing pelvic exams? Being their kid's pediatrician? Male nurses caring for them? What about male salesperson handling and speaking with them about dresses and underwear? For the wealthier fundies, would they be ok with male housekeepers who enter their homes to clean their homes?

It seems that there are fundies who are ok with women in "feminine" professions like nursing and teaching and ther are e hardcore fundies who do not believe women should be working, period. However, at least some fundies must utilize and appreciate the services of women in certain professions. A few have noted that they prefer a women doctor. I know that some fundies are crazy and would only see midwives anyway, but that's not true for many fundies who still see a doctor for difficult pregnancies. And given their "modesty" obsession, I think they would hate it if women lingerie was a male-only affair, right? And what about a world where every service they utilize has to require interaction with a male? Bank tellers, waiters, teachers etc, everywhere they turn, it's all males. Would they be comfortable with that?

It strikes me as hypocritical that they clamor about modesty and yet they advocate a philosophy which would prevent their version of "modesty" from being respected.

I don't believe think all fundies are crazy so I have to believe some of them have thought about this issue. Do they suggest that only single women and mothers with grown children fill the "feminine" jobs? Or do they just think women should stay home and let their husbands handle the day to day outside the home issues? I'm kind of curious if anyone have confronted fundies about this issue.

I be most fundies will state it's only mothers they object to working and that women can work as long as they don't have kids living at home. Still, that leaves out many professions when women have to leave the workforce for decades at a time. I often think fundies take much of modern life for granted while sprouting their concept of a perfect utopia. Meanwhile, they are hating on the mother who skillfully delivers her baby or helps her find a house. I often think if the world does turn fundie, many fundie women would be dismayed by the results. They don't know what it's like to live in a truly male-dominated world until faced with men, men everywhere.

[Soldier of the One]

Ypestis, I agree with you and have often thought about this issue. It is one of the greatest fallacies of the fundie movement. By extension, you could argue the same for a lack of scientific education. Do they really want to live in a world with no science? And by that token, medical science? Who would treat them at the hospital? The list is endless.

[Kitty]

In Afghanistan when the Taliban took over, women were barred from working outside the home, and men were forbidden to treat women they were not married to. This had exactly the consequence you'd think it would: women had absolutely no health care. When you deny a person health care, you deny them life. And if they manage to survive anyway, they have no strength and no voice. Women become disposable, and men value them less because once they're pregnant, there are no guarantees that they will survive the birth, and marry again and again, because women must literally give their lives to produce heirs. And when they can't or won't have children... women have no use and no purpose in such a society.

Sorry if it sounds morbid, I've been watching The Tudors again. BTW, none of Henry VIII's wives lived past 50. Of course, having your head cut off drastically reduces your life expectancy, but the other wives died in what we would now call middle age. Catherine of Aragon died of cancer, age 50(ish). Jane Seymour died in childbirth; she didn't live to see 30. Anne of Cleves died of cancer as well. Catherine Parr died in childbirth a year after Henry's death, in her forties. Queen Mary I died in her forties, probably of ovarian cancer. In a time where medical science was non-existent, neither men nor women were expected to live beyond age 50.

That's certainly not what fundies want. They take current medical science and technology for granted. They want a world where women are happy to cook, clean, birth babies and homeschool children, but if they're uneducated and neglected, the children are screwed and the world goes back into the Tudor era. And that's definitely not a world I want to live in, even if it means I get to wear pretty period dresses.

[August]

A woman shouldn't bee seen by a doctor or nurse anyway, and she's far too delicate to be participating in retail transactions.

On the other hand, I'm reminded of prolifers using abortion services, so they're probably quite happy condemning us while using our facilities.

[Gertie]

I'm not sure most fundies want the whole world to be fundy. I think they like being "different". In the world but not of it, and all that. If everyone was like them, there would be no one to compare themselves to, to make them "not of the world".

[debrand]

I think that some of them would naturally slide toward a Taliban type of society. Occasionally, a fundie will write something that sounds as if it could have been written by a Muslim fundamentalist.

[AtroposHeart]

You know this is the reason that fundies are so dangerous. Sure, they are fun to mock, but when it comes down to it their world would be horrific and dangerous for women and girls.

Which is why they must be apposed on every step of their way.

[salex]

I think that some of them would naturally slide toward a Taliban type of society. Occasionally, a fundie will write something that sounds as if it could have been written by a Muslim fundamentalist.

I have noticed that ever since 9-11, the Christian radio shows and just the general tone has taken on a lot of the stuff that used to be confined to the Muslim Fundamentalists. The whole "Women should dress modestly, not just to please god, but to keep the men from sinning" line is straight out of the Burqua handbook, and is much more popular in the last decade than it ever was before. When I was a teen, it was "dress decently" for yourself and to please God (and your mom) butI was not told it was my responsibility to keep guys from sinning by thinking about me.

The more recent efforts to have as many kids a possible has been related to trying to keep up with the growing Islamic population in more than one lecture I've heard on the radio (which I don't much listen to anymore... ) and the anti woman "stuff", like most things, started quasi innocently--ie, men and women are wired differently , and then dozens of men are from mars, women from venus types of BS to follow-- the more different, the more you can defend controlling the group.

I once said that I believed that Fundamentalism, in all its forms, would eventually destroy the world, and a couple of the guys I worked with who I didn't realize were fundies both took offense, to which I say-- Good.

[samurai_sarah]

You know this is the reason that fundies are so dangerous. Sure, they are fun to mock, but when it comes down to it their world would be horrific and dangerous for women and girls.

Which is why they must be apposed on every step of their way.

This. As Kitty said upthread, Afghanistan shows us what that world would look like. Not a world I'd want to live in, much less raise children in (provided I live to do that).

[jenny_islander]

I think that some of them would naturally slide toward a Taliban type of society. Occasionally, a fundie will write something that sounds as if it could have been written by a Muslim fundamentalist.

I think a lot of them haven't considered the implications because they can't wrap their heads around the idea that many of the things they take for granted come from "Godless" science or accept that their doctrine of the SAHM is just a Victorian middle-class fantasy painted in modern colors. They have been trained to ignore reality in favor of whatever the guy ranting up on stage has to say this week; the rest of us are just faceless extras in the End Times movies running in their heads.

But if they all got what they thought they wanted, yup, we'd have an American Taliban. Of course, the rich fundamentalists would still fly to Europe to get medical care and indulge themselves, even as they told the poor fundamentalists that it was Godly to let one's wife die of eclampsia or lose children to scarlet fever.

As for a world without women, I think the American Taliban would have plenty of women working outside the home. They would just be invisible women: poor, brown, underaged immigrants is my guess. Like the maids in parts of the Middle East who get to sleep in a little cubbyhole and sit on the floor in the car.

[2xx1xy1JD]

It's a good question, and Kitty is right that in some countries, it is also current reality instead of a frightening vision of the future.

Health care: See a woman (qualified doctor if you are lucky, unlicensed midwife if you are not)

Clothes shopping: Order online, or go to a woman-only shop run out of the woman's home.

Bank: do it online or at a machine or get your husband to do it instead.

Teachers: Do girls really need to be educated?

Household help: Hire a servant, who will not be considered as someone who really matters. [i know someone whose daughter was working in Saudi Arabia until she got pregnant.]

[Anxious Girl]

Yes, it is. Fundies and neo-cons are afraid of this happening:

I think that white Christian fundie American men, their supporters and ignorant like-minded people fear feminism because they think that minorities and women will take away white mens' privileges because of their treatments of minorites and women for all of history. They also don't want abortion to be a reality because they might think that women might want to abort baby boys because white Christian men have abused their privilege, don't want to share it, or don't even realize they have it; and are afraid that women can take away men's political power with their reproductive organs by not wanting to give birth to baby boys.

That's my theory on why they don't want women to have power, anyway. They don't realize that feminism is about tearing down patriarchy to provide equal opportunities and rights for all and not about overpowering men, the dummies.

[jenny_islander]

Yes, it is. Fundies and neo-cons are afraid of this happening:

I think that white Christian fundie American men, their supporters and ignorant like-minded people fear feminism because they think that minorities and women will take away white mens' privileges because of their treatments of minorites and women for all of history. They also don't want abortion to be a reality because they might think that women might want to abort baby boys because white Christian men have abused their privilege, don't want to share it, or don't even realize they have it; and are afraid that women can take away men's political power with their reproductive organs by not wanting to give birth to baby boys.

That's my theory on why they don't want women to have power, anyway. They don't realize that feminism is about tearing down patriarchy to provide equal opportunities and rights for all and not about overpowering men, the dummies.

I think you definitely have a point! If minority status always means the people on top get to crap on you, then you don't ever want to be not on top. The idea that nobody gets to put anybody else down is just unthinkable.

[Soldier of the One]

Or Saudi Arabia if you want a more technologically-advanced version... :shock:

[MamaJunebug]

The thing is .... it's not just right-wing fundies that think this way.

I will never forget 10th grade, our civics teacher - an evident socialist - mocked some boys in an earlier class who had neglected to include a girl in their list of "four people you would want to colonize the moon," an assignment the teacher had given for a reason I still can't figure out.

"They included themselves, no girls," the teacher pouted. I started thinking, "Which girl in that class has better mechanical skills than [the mechanical boy in the group]--" when the teacher alienated me forever by saying in aan overly loud voice, "How will they repopulate without a girl?"

My point being: Even very progressive/liberal/socialist people can fall into the masculinist trap of thinking of women as nothing more than brood mares at worst, queen bees at best. Which simply says that yes, it is highly important to speak up against this anti-common-sense attitude of female inferiority and guiltiness.

But I think while the extremists to the right end of the spectra - whether Christian, Islamic, Jewish or atheist - are open about it, the attitude is still very potent on the left. It may be dormant, it may not be mentioned in polite progressive society, but I do believe it's everywhere.

Fight on!

[Fargood]

I'm not sure most fundies want the whole world to be fundy. I think they like being "different". In the world but not of it, and all that. If everyone was like them, there would be no one to compare themselves to, to make them "not of the world".

Quoted for fucking truth! This. ^^

They don't want everyone to be fundie. Just them and their sooper speshul friends. Because they're different! and special! Everyone else is icky!

[boxerlover24]

I think that some of them would naturally slide toward a Taliban type of society. Occasionally, a fundie will write something that sounds as if it could have been written by a Muslim fundamentalist.

Word!

If anyone has not seen the movie "Jesus Camp" I would highly reccomend it. It follows the more evangelical/baptist groups (if I remember correctly). It really shows how the hardcore Christian groups in America do not seem that far off from the Muslim extremeists America seems to fear so much. It was actually pretty frightening when I first saw it. :?

[So Says I]

I'm not sure most fundies want the whole world to be fundy. I think they like being "different". In the world but not of it, and all that. If everyone was like them, there would be no one to compare themselves to, to make them "not of the world".

This. While I think the mindset definitely depends on the "type" of fundie, I'm sort of focusing on the Calvinist types who believe in predestination. They seem to get off on the idea of being God's elect and the only ones who are chosen to go to heaven. It's probably reassuring to them that they are surrounded by us of-the-world types, such as pants-wearing, working women, teh gayz, pro-choicers, progressive Christians, and so on and so forth. I imagine the God's elect types fantasizing about being raptured up to heaven while the rest of us are plagued by boils and locusts and later fry in the lake o' fire.

[ADoyle90815]

Word!

If anyone has not seen the movie "Jesus Camp" I would highly reccomend it. It follows the more evangelical/baptist groups (if I remember correctly). It really shows how the hardcore Christian groups in America do not seem that far off from the Muslim extremeists America seems to fear so much. It was actually pretty frightening when I first saw it. :?

I also recommend that movie, as it shows how scary hardcore fundies really are. I remember a thread earlier on this board where there was a link to a quiz online to guess whether something was said by Muslim fundamentalists, or Christian fundamentalists, and some of the quotes were hard to figure out who said it at first.

[mg78]

Ypestis, I agree with you and have often thought about this issue. It is one of the greatest fallacies of the fundie movement. By extension, you could argue the same for a lack of scientific education. Do they really want to live in a world with no science? And by that token, medical science? Who would treat them at the hospital? The list is endless.

Also, I think it just shows the lack of critical thinking from some of these fundies.

[debrand]

Also, I think it just shows the lack of critical thinking from some of these fundies.

Perhaps they have not thought it so far, but a world without science would actually probably be easier for fundie royalty to control. When people have to work constantly, worry that every little disease will kill their children and can only access what their leaders want them to hear, they are going to accept what their leaders claim god wants for them.

On Netflix, I watched The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan. Because the population is sex segregated many men are 'situational homosexuals'. They want to have sex with adolescent males because females aren't available to them. It does seem like American Christian fundies would create a society where the woman is rarely seen except by the men who have control over her. Ironically, I think that would lead to more incidences of bisexuality like in Afghanistan.

[Minerva]

I think if you confronted a very hard-core fundy with it, they might explain that this is why they're encouraging the practice of home-everything. Home school, home birth, at-home healthcare. They'd probably be ok with women helping each other with births on a volunteer basis as long as it didn't require that they get a formal education. Maybe they'd want to eliminate the need for nurses by making it so that doctors visit people at their homes like in the old days. Essentially, women would continue to do "female" jobs, but unpaid and mostly for their own family.

I think there's a category of fundies that think it's ok for women to work in "feminine" jobs, but only while waiting for God to send them a husband. In their perfect world, women needing gynecological care would receive it, but always from a nurse and never from a doctor. Which is better than the first scenario, but would still result in women receiving insufficient care.

[salex]

I think if you confronted a very hard-core fundy with it, they might explain that this is why they're encouraging the practice of home-everything. Home school, home birth, at-home healthcare. They'd probably be ok with women helping each other with births on a volunteer basis as long as it didn't require that they get a formal education. Maybe they'd want to eliminate the need for nurses by making it so that doctors visit people at their homes like in the old days. Essentially, women would continue to do "female" jobs, but unpaid and mostly for their own family.

This website is one I stumbled on while researching Dominionism. it dreams of Not States rights, more along county rights and preferrably "family rights"

We need to acknowledge that States’ Rights—though much better than all power being centralized in a large national government—is not a good enough answer to national tyranny. “States’ Rights are for sissies,†as a friend of mine says. Give me “County Rights.†That’s decentralized power. But lest my libertarian friends needle me by pointing out that Counties can cajole and extort too, I prefer to argue that civil government power should be as decentralized as possible. If it is possible to get to the level of family and individual sovereignty in terms of civil government, then we should welcome it in society.

They seem to want to balkanize the USA. What I find is that they, like some of the preppers, think that once the world is changed (turned upside down, devastated whatever) they, who have little if any power today, will take their rightful place as KINGS and Leaders. It is very much a fantasy of "if things were different, I'd show them who was boss." it seems to me.

[Jinger Jar]

I think if you confronted a very hard-core fundy with it, they might explain that this is why they're encouraging the practice of home-everything. Home school, home birth, at-home healthcare. They'd probably be ok with women helping each other with births on a volunteer basis as long as it didn't require that they get a formal education. Maybe they'd want to eliminate the need for nurses by making it so that doctors visit people at their homes like in the old days. Essentially, women would continue to do "female" jobs, but unpaid and mostly for their own family.

I think there's a category of fundies that think it's ok for women to work in "feminine" jobs, but only while waiting for God to send them a husband. In their perfect world, women needing gynecological care would receive it, but always from a nurse and never from a doctor. Which is better than the first scenario, but would still result in women receiving insufficient care.

to the bolded

One of the goals of fundieism is to remove females from public spheres. It's a lot easier to control women if we don’t go to brick-and-mortar schools, doctor's offices, employers, and churches. The less exposure fundie women have to the world beyond their families and select others whose thinking is lockstep with theirs, the more likely they are to believe that everybody else is wicked and bent on harming them and their families spiritually and/or physically.

Fundie men exploit and encourage this ignorance and fear every chance they get. If they had their way, a perfect world would be one in which they never, ever encountered women at work, at school, or in public gathering places.

[Soldier of the One]

Yes, but such a world will never be sustainable. Never. Just like Taliban society is not sustainable. Even Saudi Arabia is willing to make some concessions to educated women in the workplace.