Former Fundie Pastor BLog

[SpeakNow]

I just found this today...http://fallenfromgrace.net/

[Hane]

His writings remind me of a member of my UU congregation, a man of his approximate age who was raised a fundamentalist Christian, but became an atheist and eventually a UU minister.

In Gerencser's post, he mentions being concerned that people might accuse him of leaving the pulpit "for emotional reasons." I maintain that these "emotional reasons" would be a damn good reason to leave something that you doubted and that was making you miserable. (It's like the folks who excoriate women for divorcing because they're "unhappy": I personally think unhappiness is a damn good reason to get a divorce!)

[Burris]

I've read some of this guy's blog before, and am not certain what to make of it. His journey out of Faith, after having dominated his wife and children with it for decades, was occasioned by nothing in particular. He simply stopped believing, gave up his position as a pastor, and told his wife and kids to make their own choices and become whatever they wish to be.

The way he discusses the subject, as if the Christian faith is self-evidently wrong and 'of course he would have found his way out eventually' kind of rubs me the wrong way, given just how much of an investment his fundamentalism required of those around him: “Wife? Kids? Please take a seat. I've been studying, as you know, and have been questioning my faith. Well, remember how I cowed my wife so much she has a hard time picking which restaurant we should eat at? Remember all those hours I ground Scripture into the minds of my children and perhaps even beat it into their backsides? Well, it turns out Christianity is a crock of shit. I'm now an atheist. I'm hoping you can all become the people you would have been had I not ruled you with an iron first lo these past 30 years.â€

[Hane]

I haven't read much of his blog, but, you know, Burris, his tone kind of reminds me of the guys who post on an ex-Mormon forum I visit sometimes. Many of them seem to go from True Believer to Big Angry Atheist in 60 seconds, and the attitude is that anyone who ISN'T a Big Angry Atheist has his head up his butt.

[apple1]

I've read some of this guy's blog before, and am not certain what to make of it. His journey out of Faith, after having dominated his wife and children with it for decades, was occasioned by nothing in particular. He simply stopped believing, gave up his position as a pastor, and told his wife and kids to make their own choices and become whatever they wish to be.

The way he discusses the subject, as if the Christian faith is self-evidently wrong and 'of course he would have found his way out eventually' kind of rubs me the wrong way, given just how much of an investment his fundamentalism required of those around him: “Wife? Kids? Please take a seat. I've been studying, as you know, and have been questioning my faith. Well, remember how I cowed my wife so much she has a hard time picking which restaurant we should eat at? Remember all those hours I ground Scripture into the minds of my children and perhaps even beat it into their backsides? Well, it turns out Christianity is a crock of shit. I'm now an atheist. I'm hoping you can all become the people you would have been had I not ruled you with an iron first lo these past 30 years.â€

I've read a fair bit of this guy's blog. I think there is a huge missing piece, or pieces, to the puzzle, as far as what he does and doesn't say. It would be interesting to know what the missing pieces are. It would also be interesting to hear the story from the viewpoint of his wife or his grown kids.

(A significant portion of his life was in the state in which I live, part of it in my area of the state. I know a few of the names he drops, and that leaves me even more puzzled. Doesn't fit).

[gustava]

I'm finding his blog interesting. I don't think his journey was easy. i need to read more.

[debrand]

How does someone who used religion to control others show compassion if he or she looses faith? After all, sometimes, you just stop believing. Beyond apologizing, I don't know how such a person could make amends for their stupidity. Within conservative and fundamentalist Christianity there seems to be a need to keep everyone-pastors, congregation, husbands, wives, and children-in their prospective places under the appropriate authority figure. One of the reasons that it might be difficult to leave fundamentalism is that the older you are, the more people you have probably hurt.

It makes sense to me that someone who had a strong belief in god might be angry that they believed a lie. Letting go of faith can be painful. I think that the anger should be more internal. After all, I have to accept that I tricked myself into believing in some illogical things. Getting angry at people who still believe is a waste of time.

[debrand]

Which article has a link to how he used to treat his wife? I haven't read the entire blog, just the first three articles. Which posts seem very angry to you guys?

The verbal, bombastic, argumentative, proof-texting apologists for Christianity are not your typical run of the mill Christian. Most often, they are the embodiment of everything that is bad about Christianity and, as atheists, we err when we assume they are representative of Christians everywhere. (and the same could be said of assuming that Richard Dawkins, Dan Dennett, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris are representative of all atheists

http://fallenfromgrace.net/2012/02/06/i ... isnt-real/

This quote doesn't sound angry but I haven't read his entire blog.

[debrand]

I'm bumping this up because some people might enjoy reading the blog. So far, I am on the second page and I don't see the anger. I am not saying that it isn't there, just not on the first couple of pages. It is rare that I disagree with Burris so I'm doubting myself at this point. Could you guys please link to the articles that show anger?

[FlorenceHamilton]

I have only read a little bit. My first observation is that his writing still sounds like the writing of a pastor. Just because he no longer believes in the Christian deity doe not mean he is a different person. Becoming a pastor would require certain personality traits. Among those traits would be a self-assuredness that could be seen as arrogant. They perform in public, so they display a bit of the dramatic. They see themselves as leaders and project that image of themselves as a bit above the masses. As for anger...well I would be angry too! If a person feels duped or made foolish to have bought into a system of beliefs that promised etermal salvation among other things and then discovered it was all just a fairy tale, I think anger is a fair and valid emotion.

i will read more when I get the time, but for now my thoughts are that this is this man's deconversion story in his words in the context of his own personality. His personality has not changed from the time he was a pastor. Only his beliefs have changed.

[apple1]

FJ is the subject of the current post on this blog. The comments are more revealing than the initial post. It's interesting to me that this post and the comments could be cut-and-paste of a fundy's blogs' reaction to being discussed on FJ.

BTW, debrand, everyone in life puts his/her own spin on his/her experiences. There is some overlap between the circles of my life and the circles of this guy's history (sort of a Venn-diagram kind of thing). Maybe it's the glass-is/was-entirely-empty spin (not half empty). Also, deep in the older posts is a short bit about how his marriage continues to divide responsibilities that pops up flags. It's hard to pin down. Or maybe I am just a skeptical person. (And I am sure what I write here is being read and snarked on...)

[Guest Anonymous]

I have only read a little bit. My first observation is that his writing still sounds like the writing of a pastor. Just because he no longer believes in the Christian deity doe not mean he is a different person. .....

His personality has not changed from the time he was a pastor. Only his beliefs have changed.

This is exactly what I thought: from his writing it sounds as though his beliefs have changed, but his profession has stayed the same.

He does not sound overtly angry to me, but he seems to assume an authority that he no longer has... evidenced in his most recent post about Free Jinger:

I am very open about the past and present and I am readily accessible to anyone who wants to contact me. I guess it is easier to cast doubt on my story than just ASK ME.

His lengthy "comment policy" suggests that most of us would be locked in the prayer closet before you could say "Free Jinger":

What are the comment rules?

The comments rules are quite simple and most people shouldn’t have any trouble complying. Be polite and stay on subject. Bruce asks that your actually read the post before commenting on it.

Bruce also asks that you do not evangelize,quote bible verses, preach or attempt to psychoanalyze. Attempts at judging motives are discouraged.

Bruce asks that you not attack Christian commenters with comments about the historicity of the Bible and Jesus. Bruce writes from the perspective that the Bible is a historical document and that it is likely that a man named Jesus actually lived during the times written about in the Bible.

The comments are not the place for long, verbose debates. Please keep your comments succinct and to the point. Any discussions that turn into tit-for-tat attacks will be stopped and the offending commenters placed on moderation.

Name calling, argumentative comments, discussion hijacking, acting like a troll will result in your comments being deleted.

Failure to play by these basic rules will result in your comment being deleted. Continued infraction of the comment rules will result in you being banned from the site. (this has happened three times in the last 3 years)

[Burris]

Which article has a link to how he used to treat his wife? I haven't read the entire blog, just the first three articles. Which posts seem very angry to you guys?

I found this guy's blog through an article he posted on NLQ.

These are the parts that stuck with me:

I realized that I had lorded over my family. I had dominated and controlled their lives, all in the name of Jesus. By doing so I had robbed them of the ability to live their lives independently of my control. Every decision had to have my stamp of approval. Nothing escaped my purview. After all, God had commanded me to be the head of the home. Someday I would give an account to God for how I managed the affairs of my family. I took the threat of judgment seriously.

The biggest problem we faced was that since I was the one who always made the final decision my children and wife lacked the skills necessary to make good decisions.

Raised in a fundamentalist home, her father a IFB pastor, Polly had spent her entire life under the thumb of someone else. She rarely had to make a decision because there was always someone else making decisions for her.

To say our new found life was difficult for Polly would be a gross underestimation. Suddenly she was forced to make decisions on her own. For a time she panicked when faced with making a decision on her own. Simple decisions, like what to order at the Fast Food drive-thru or whether or not to put gas in the car, were monumental decisions for her.

For many years my family believed what I believed, went to church when I went to church, and obeyed any and every command I gave, complete with proof texts from the Bible . Now it was different.

I told my wife and six children that I was setting them free. I was no longer going to be the spiritual head of the home. I was no longer going to be the spiritual patriarch of the family. They were free to be whatever they wanted to be.

I was well suited for the hierarchical family system and the pastorate. I am not afraid to make decisions. Snap decisions come easy for me. It felt very natural to me to make all the decisions.

It was through this lens that I viewed the articles on Bruce Gerencser's blog.

It's frightening the contemplate the damage he'd done - first, through his overmastering control, and then through his decision to abandon this control outright.

It seems - and I could be wrong - that there was no gentle winding down to cushion the shock Gerencser's wife must have felt: The man just decided, "Well, it's all bullshit" - he claims it wasn't even an emotional decision - and then let his family know.

I'm not sure how else he could have handled the situation. Maybe there really was no other way. But this seems as extreme, to me, as a radical conversion into fundamentalism.

[Guest Anonymous]

A huge thing that is "missing" from his writing for me, is any sense of sadness or sorrow for what he inflicted on his family (and congregations) before his deconversion. He writes as though he was simply a victim and doesn't really acknowledge that he was a perpetrator of abuse.

It is interesting that he wrote his story for NLQ, which does rather seem to be a gathering place for ex-fundies who see themselves en masse as mostly victims, rather than perpetrators of abuse.

[apple1]

When a pastor leaves a church (most especially a "fundy" church, and more specifically an IFB church), there is ALWAYS something, or somethingS, that happened. Not just some nebulous whatever.

And I don't for a minute think that at least some members of the churches he formerly pastored, or even more, some of his former fellow-pastors in the circles he was in, haven't found his blog and attempted to post comments. Any such comments would probably shed more light, and are glaringly missing.

[mirele]

When a pastor leaves a church (most especially a "fundy" church, and more specifically an IFB church), there is ALWAYS something, or somethingS, that happened. Not just some nebulous whatever.

And I don't for a minute think that at least some members of the churches he formerly pastored, or even more, some of his former fellow-pastors in the circles he was in, haven't found his blog and attempted to post comments. Any such comments would probably shed more light, and are glaringly missing.

I agree. There are holes in his story.

I don't think that he realizes FJ is a snark site. We may do other things here, but we started to snark on fundamentalists. I don't think he realizes that he is, in some ways, just as snarkalicious as some of our hard-core fundies. And, I submit to you, that's because while he left faith, as someone said, his personality hasn't changed.

[Someonetocall]

Bruce writes from the perspective that the Bible is a historical document and that it is likely that a man named Jesus actually lived during the times written about in the Bible.

via fallenfromgrace.net/faq/

and

It's easy to see that some of these folks haven't read much of your blog. Some of them attributue motives to you when they don't know you and these motives are in explicit contradiction to your explanation that your study of the bible showed it to be a thoroughly human book and one that is full of contradictions, not a God-breathed book which is inerrant in the now missing original autographs. You came to the conclusion that the Christian God does not exist, on the evidence, as you honestly see it. Is this too hard for some people to accept? Why don't they study the bible and see for themselves?

via fallenfromgrace.net/2012/02/06/interesting-discussion-at-free-jinger/#comment-431702169

If I understand correctly, the bible was written by people, who are fallible, but it's largely historically accurate, ergo the Christian God does not exist? And the commenter wants the FJHive to study the bible to understand that the so-called "Christian God" doesn't exist?

As my emotions abated the evidence took over. As I read and studied I came to the conclusion that the truth claims of Christianity were false. The Bible was not a divine book, the Word of God. It is was fallible, man-made, errant book. While it may offer some valuable insights it was not in any way a divine road map for life.

via fallenfromgrace.net/2012/02/06/did-our-journey-out-of-christianity-begin-with-evidence/

A change in emotion lead to a change in how the little voice in his head read the bible to him? This sounds a lot like the old joke of the illiterate man whose wife sends him a letter asking for money and he asks his boss to read it; and the boss does so in a gruff voice. Then, when the priest asks after the man's wife, the priest reads the letter in a kinder voice and the man is now ready to send money home because "the wife changed her tone".

I don't disagree with Bob that perhaps reading the bible as the inerrant verbatim voice of God is probably not the best bet but I find it a bit rich that he and his commenters care that we haven't read the whole backstory when he didn't really get that we're a snark board and aren't so much interested in holding his hand and listening carefully to his story as we are about picking apart his story and gleaning from it what interests us.

[apple1]

Aram McLean

Looks to me like a group of people who get together for the sole purpose of snarking. The most recent post from today even says as much. These people snark purely for the sake of it. Sounds like a big waste of time to me; a sign of a brain perhaps somewhat similar to that of a dog who never tires of chasing around a stick. I wouldn't spend another moment even thinking about these folks at Jinger. Let them chase their sticks and stones around in circles. Of course they don't want to know the whole story. That would involve thinking.

Today 12:03 PM

Bruce Gerencser Yeah, I didn't realize they were a snark board. From what I read, for most of them anyway, snark really just means "I am an asshole and I can say whatever I want." Today 01:19 PM in reply to Aram McLean

Jim Jones To me they seem more confused than anything.

Today 12:17 PM in reply to Aram McLean

eliautsumsmom Ok. what Blog were they reading? Because I have read ALOT of what you have written and I don't see it. Why do people have to be so judgemental? Does it really make them feel so much better about themselves to tear someone else down? I can see their smug self satisfaction now on their faces and would just love to knock it off for them. I can't stand that!

Today 11:43 AM

Bruce Gerencser I think they take great joy in deconstructing what others write. Honesty and integrity doesn't matter. Their defense? We are a snark board. This allows them to hide behind their pseudonyms and say whatever they want. This isn't the first time this has happened with something I have written. If I am going to write publicly I must understand that there will be assholes that will misuse and distort what I have written. Thanks for the support.

Today 01:25 PM in reply to eliautsumsmom

exrelayman All any of us can do is our best. I see you raising your voice to be a help for the newly disillusioned. SOME of them are doing snark. Which is the more worthwhile endeavor? A wise saying goes, 'You add suffering to the world by taking offense just as you do by giving offense.' Let the small minds play - they are like terriers barking at you from behind a fence. You are untouched.

Today 10:45 AM

Bruce Gerencser Thanks, bro.

Today 01:25 PM in reply to exrelayman

Crack Me Up Don't feed the Free Jinger trolls. There is no way to win with the snarkers.

Today 08:47 AM

Bruce Gerencser Thanks for the advice. I don't plan to feed them further. Of course this post will probably be enough food to feed them for awhile.

Today 01:28 PM in reply to Crack Me Up

John Arthur Hi Bruce, It's easy to see that some of these folks haven't read much of your blog. Some of them attributue motives to you when they don't know you and these motives are in explicit contradiction to your explanation that your study of the bible showed it to be a thoroughly human book and one that is full of contradictions, not a God-breathed book which is inerrant in the now missing original autographs. You came to the conclusion that the Christian God does not exist, on the evidence, as you honestly see it. Is this too hard for some people to accept? Why don't they study the bible and see for themselves? Are they too afraid? As a liberal Christian, I agree with you that on rational and empirical grounds it is very unlikely that God exists and it is true that the bible is full of contradictions. I am an agnostic on those grounds, but I choose to believe in a "God" of compassion, healing-mercy and loving-kindness but heck, I don't expect others to accept this. Atheists and agnostics can show, and often do show show, more loving-kindness than many Christians. I am not sure why I choose to believe that God is love, but it is surely better for my emotional health than the belief that God is focused on wrath and judgment. One might say that it is a crutch that I hold on to, and they would probably be right. Don't let these folks over at Free Jinger get you down when they misrepresent you. Your blog is providing inspiration for folks that are trying to, or have, escape(d) from Fundamentalism. Keep up the good work, Bruce. Many thanks,

John Arthur

Today 03:05 AM

Bruce Gerencser I remind myself that the majority of Christians aren't like their asshole representatives on the internet. Most Christians are decent, good people who I just happen to disagree with about God, the Bible, Jesus, etc.

Today 02:32 PM in reply to John Arthur

April Galamin Your journey is yours & you experienced it through your perspective. Not everyone sees the apple the same way...took me a while to realize that. Many people think their way of seeing is the only way or the -right- way. Those people will be the scoffers, but your experience is just that, YOUR experience. Not theirs, not mine, yours. Many people wont get it, but lots of people, who have escaped fundamentalism, will & do. ;) ;)

Yesterday 11:18 PM

Bruce Gerencser Thanks April.

Today 02:32 PM in reply to April Galamin

MyBurritosAreMadeofGoat Something that you need to know about that particularly board at Free Jinger is that the general "tone" is snarky and sarcastic. Try not to take it personally.

Yesterday 09:54 PM

Bruce Gerencser Thanks for the info.

Yesterday 09:59 PM in reply to MyBurritosAreMadeofGoat

MichaelL65 Well, that was interesting. I don't think they were reading the same blog I am. Haters gonna hate I guess.

Yesterday 09:45 PM

Bruce Gerencser Yes they are.

FJers- Draw your own conclusions.

[Patsy]

Huh? Where's the hatred and inaccuracy? Where are the stupid assumptions that could be cleared up with a simple question?

[salsa]

deleted (don't see how to delete it; maybe I'm not fully blanket trained, after all)

[debrand]

like losing a best friend. And though it is personally grief-ridden, wondering if you were wrong, after your faith/decisions/life has influenced how your children were raised and what your spouse was able to do and how much freedom they might have had, is indescribable, but involves a huge dose of guilt. (having a faith crisis, myself)

I feel that I was overly harsh with my kids during my fundamentalist phase. Although I've apologized mulitple times, I still carry a lot of guilt.

[Austin]

I feel that I was overly harsh with my kids during my fundamentalist phase. Although I've apologized mulitple times, I still carry a lot of guilt.

I have many regrets from my time in evangelicalism. Not very much to do with my children, but with a lot of other things.

And my experience when going through the process of losing my faith was one steeped in grief. As much as I had to jettison it, there was definitely a loss involved. I doubt I could explain this to someone who had never deconverted from a truly-held belief system, but it seems like both of you have. I haven't read this man's blog, but I would probably be more inclined to give him some benefit of the doubt just based on what I've read here. JMO.

[salsa]

I read a bit and don't read him as being arrogant; his responses to the searches are rather amusing.